Update 10 Developer Diary -- Itemization Information

[furtim]

I like the changes here, RockX. The idea that the classic Instance Clusters will drop a certain type of gear is pretty cool. Hopefully, this gets people running a wider variety of instances, instead of just doing the same old stuff over and over.

[Ulanor_EU]

I like the changes here, RockX. The idea that the classic Instance Clusters will drop a certain type of gear is pretty cool. Hopefully, this gets people running a wider variety of instances, instead of just doing the same old stuff over and over.

Depends on just what he means as we can see here its not very clear though i must say not really as we already got differing stuff from differing instance clusters *shrugs*

[daadkey]

Seems to be getting closer and closer to the worst changes in the history of the game. There is zero good reason to change the Hytbold armor from 3-5 to 2-4. If you want a 2-4 format, use your new Eriabor armor for that but leave the Hytbold alone and as it is now. I do not raid. Ever. So, I will not be getting any of that tier 1 or Tier 2 stuff. And you are making the gold recipes too rare and too hard to obtain for everyone.

Raiding is a fading MMO art form yet here it is getting a major treatment. Ah, well, I suppose it is okay to throw a bone to a dying breed but this is a bit much. All the golden tier loot in the world is not going to change the course of the current trend away from raiding. It will, though, further PO the solo and small fellowship folks more than they are already.

So, it just looks more and more like I10 is bound to be an epic fail. I hope I am wrong, but the evidence is getting awful close to proving otherwise.

Good luck with this, I thing you're going to need it.

In the meantime, I'll just play my game in my own little bubble and forget the rest of this stuff is happening.

[l0rd_tornado]

Raiding is a fading MMO art form yet here it is getting a major treatment.

Raiding is a fading MMO art form? ....

You would prefer MMO's be 100% single player? Isnt that just a single player RPG then? Group play in an MMO is not a "fading art form". In fact most mmo's end game is based a lot around group dynamics, as that is the whole point of a Massively MULTIPLAYER online roleplaying game.

Its why Healers have group heals and tanks have skills solely designed around increasing threat. Guardians taunts and threat skills are pointless without group play.

What is the need in having decked out "raid gear" if all you do is fight single player mobs? You can kill quest mobs and such half naked, so why even worry with the top end gear if you care nothing for group play?

I dont understand this logic at all.

I like all the changes listed in the Dev Diary.

[nolins12]

Interesting, this is exactly how the dungeons work in GW2, each dungeon offers a different type of armor for each class.

The difference here is, in GW2 there are basically no class roles, so any group of 5 people can complete an instance. In LOTRO this is obviously not the case.

[l0rd_tornado]

Interesting, this is exactly how the dungeons work in GW2, each dungeon offers a different type of armor for each class.

The difference here is, in GW2 there are basically no class roles, so any group of 5 people can complete an instance. In LOTRO this is obviously not the case.

I like the change. What this will do is make lots of different instances popular rather than just one small core of instances that are run over and over and over again. I strongly support the idea of making more instances viable. I am a group junkie who simply loves grouping and playing a role in a group, and I love having multiple instances available and viable than just the same ones over and over every day.

[bastiat1]

I like the change. What this will do is make lots of different instances popular rather than just one small core of instances that are run over and over and over again. I strongly support the idea of making more instances viable. I am a group junkie who simply loves grouping and playing a role in a group, and I love having multiple instances available and viable than just the same ones over and over every day.

I'm fearful that it will end up more like this:

GLFF: Hunter1 says "1/3 for School/Library need Tank/Heals"
GLFF: Hunter2 says "I'll go"
GLFF: Hunter3 says "Need a Hunter"
GLFF: Hunter4 says "I can try to ranged-tank it"
GLFF: Hunter5 says "I can kind of heal with Press Onward"
GLFF: Hunter6 says "I can heal with Strength of the Earth but you have to keep mobs off me"
GLFF: Hunter7 says "What if I bring Athleas pots?"

GLFF: Minstrel1 says "1/6 for Lost Temple, need Tank/DPS"
GLFF: Minstrel2 says "I can go War-speech"
GLFF: Minstrel3 says "I can go War-speech"
GLFF: Minstrel4 says "I can go War-speech"
GLFF: Minstrel5 says "I can go War-speech"
GLFF: Minstrel1 says "5/6 for Lost Temple, need Tank"
GLFF: Minstrel6 says "I can try to kite-tank it, but no one else can DPS"

[Mar-Evayave]

I understand the reasoning behind the different loot from different instances, that it may prompt people to play more of them, but I think this is a very bad idea. If instance X gives tank gear, its going to be hard to entice heals/DPS/etc to join in (unless its not BoA, or something, and even then...). Also, some instances are harder than others. For example, I disliked ToO Acid because I lagged so badly when the acid rises, yet other ToO instances ran smoothly for me. I'd hate to be in a position in which the gear I need would come from ToO Acid specifically. That may not be the situation, but it is just one example of why this sounds like its going to be a bad idea.

About the item changes themselves, I am interested to learn more about the LES and the GES (Lesser and Greater Erebor Sets, for lack of better acronyms). However, I am curious to know whether the GES will require an UNUSED/UNEQUIPPED version of the corresponding LES in order to trade. How will that work? And what is the drop rate of these gems? If they are used so widely, from the GES to the upgraded warband rings to new recipes, are they going to be as rare as Draig scales or more common?

[Tarimaran]

I think we might be interpreting this wrong. I think it just means that if you were looking for a necklace you go to a certain cluster; but the cluster will drop things for every class.

i.e. -

Cluster X Drops
DPS Necklace
Caster Ring
Tanking Pocket

Cluster Y Drops
Tanking Necklace
DPS Ring
Caster Pocket

At least I am hoping that this is what is meant. The fact that he specifically says necklace in both examples leads me to this. Unless the instances are dropping nothing but necklaces then the extra loot has to be someplace. I think he would have said "looking for gear" instead of "looking for a necklace" if it was the way that we are fearing.

^^This

Note that this is also how Skirmishes and Erebor instances currently work. It has been working just fine for a long time. Before I run a skirmish of cluster X I check my handy dandy guide - ( http://horizon.corplaunch.com/forums...475&gid=289678 ) - then I know what I have a chance of getting. Running a Cannuilan Campaign, a tank can get the helm or pocket item, caster can get a necklace or pocket item, etc.

There is something for everyone in each cluster, just different stuff from each cluster. NBD!

[Nathrien_Estelenlaer]

Each instance cluster is now focused on a handful of different gear types, so DPS looking for a necklace would want to run instances and raids from cluster X, while Tanks looking for a necklace would want to run cluster Y.

Really? This is raising a lot of red flags here. Do you know how much this is going to kill player motivation to run group content? This is an absolutely terrible idea. If you're not a healer, how motivated are you going to be to run content that doesn't reward you? If you're not a DPS, are you going to be willing to run content that won't reward you? Same goes for tanks that won't get anything for their efforts. Instances should be rewarding EVERY member of the fellowship, or at the very least a chance of rewarding all participants, and not specific classes. This is going to start a substantial amount of in-game bickering as to which instance to run. What are you devs thinking? Do NOT separate loot types by instance group.

If this is not the case and your vague diary post is being interpreted incorrectly, please say that's the case.

I dearly hope that instance cluster W will reward tanks with item X, dps with item Y, and casters with item Z, much like the current Erebor instances. Not with cluster W dropping item X only.

[FieldMedic]

I like the changes here, RockX. The idea that the classic Instance Clusters will drop a certain type of gear is pretty cool. Hopefully, this gets people running a wider variety of instances, instead of just doing the same old stuff over and over.

They make loot more instance exclusive and you think it'll make instance running more inclusive? If anything this will make the running of specific instances more of a problem since people will single-focus on those instances that give them the loot that they want. It's heading in the opposite direction of where you want it to be.

[Ulanor_EU]

I understand the reasoning behind the different loot from different instances, that it may prompt people to play more of them, but I think this is a very bad idea. If instance X gives tank gear, its going to be hard to entice heals/DPS/etc to join in (unless its not BoA, or something, and even then...). Also, some instances are harder than others. For example, I disliked ToO Acid because I lagged so badly when the acid rises, yet other ToO instances ran smoothly for me. I'd hate to be in a position in which the gear I need would come from ToO Acid specifically. That may not be the situation, but it is just one example of why this sounds like its going to be a bad idea.

but again that is not what was definitively said, all we know is dps necklaces come from a different instance to tank ones. doesnt mean tank rings come from the same instances as the tank necklaces or that they dont come from the one with the dps necklaces for example. What we do really need though is it explained clearly as this confusion is silly.

[Ulanor_EU]

I dearly hope that instance cluster W will reward tanks with item X, dps with item Y, and casters with item Z, much like the current Erebor instances. Not with cluster W dropping item X only.

Wouldnt be enough instance clusters if it only dropped one item type for one of the trinity would there, would need at least what 6 or so per archetype, dont think we have 18 clusters.

[furtim]

Depends on just what he means as we can see here its not very clear though i must say not really as we already got differing stuff from differing instance clusters *shrugs*

Different instance clusters have always dropped different items, but what RockX is talking about here involves consolidating them around themes. So, the best DPS gear in each slot drops from cluster X, the best tank gear in each slot drops from cluster Y, etc.

Currently, each instance cluster now will have, like, one item that's the best item for that one slot for one class. For kinships, that means that once everyone of that class has that one item, you stop doing that instance. (And, realistically, doing an instance just to get one thing for one person isn't an efficient use of a kinship's time anyway.)

[l0rd_tornado]

I'm fearful that it will end up more like this:

GLFF: Hunter1 says "1/3 for School/Library need Tank/Heals"
GLFF: Hunter2 says "I'll go"
GLFF: Hunter3 says "Need a Hunter"
GLFF: Hunter4 says "I can try to ranged-tank it"
GLFF: Hunter5 says "I can kind of heal with Press Onward"
GLFF: Hunter6 says "I can heal with Strength of the Earth but you have to keep mobs off me"
GLFF: Hunter7 says "What if I bring Athleas pots?"

GLFF: Minstrel1 says "1/6 for Lost Temple, need Tank/DPS"
GLFF: Minstrel2 says "I can go War-speech"
GLFF: Minstrel3 says "I can go War-speech"
GLFF: Minstrel4 says "I can go War-speech"
GLFF: Minstrel5 says "I can go War-speech"
GLFF: Minstrel1 says "5/6 for Lost Temple, need Tank"
GLFF: Minstrel6 says "I can try to kite-tank it, but no one else can DPS"

No, it wont be like this at all. You have little experience with MMO End games I suppose.


What will happen is:

Instance X will have say DPS Necklace drop, Healer Bracelt Drop, and Tank Ring drop (example)

Instance Y will have say DPS Ring drop, Healer Necklace Drop, and Tank Bracelet Drop. (example)


This will mean players need to run multiple different instances to gear out. Using this method you can make a whole series of instance clusters viable and important. There is no reason to have great instances sit abandoned and never run when they can be taken advantage of to give players new encounters, different scenery and different experiences.

Even if the system didnt work as I have it above, people would still run instances that dont necesarily drop an exact item for them, because there will be many more incentives to going along. I have a guardian and a champ, I would gladly tank an instance on my guardian for a minstrel to get their item, simply because I enjoy grouping and playing the game, and actually putting my gear which I spend so much time obtaining to use. I never unstand why ppl want to gear out in leet gear then never run anything. What is the point of gearing out? To run tough content!

[Rowan]

I talked this through with Rock, and want to clarify a bit.

The design intention here is not to route every tank (and their group) through the same instance cluster repeatedly. The goal is to give you motivation to go to multiple spaces, with available items for many classes in each cluster. The gear drops have been distributed across clusters.

[Ulanor_EU]

I talked this through with Rock, and want to clarify a bit.

The design intention here is not to route every tank (and their group) through the same instance cluster repeatedly. The goal is to give you motivation to go to multiple spaces, with available items for many classes in each cluster. The gear drops have been distributed across clusters.

Which wasnt though very clearly said, but as the 'best in slots' were already kinda spread around I dont really see what change this actually brings.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

I talked this through with Rock, and want to clarify a bit.

The design intention here is not to route every tank (and their group) through the same instance cluster repeatedly. The goal is to give you motivation to go to multiple spaces, with available items for many classes in each cluster. The gear drops have been distributed across clusters.

But surely this is what we had already, so why did Rock bother to mention it? Just in order to highlight that the old scaleable content is worth running? (which is not a bad thing) Well, I'm happy that its not 'tank cluster' 'dps cluster' etc, cheers for the confirmation

[Lestache]

RockX, it certainly appears like you might want to clarify your "DPS Necklace go here, Tank Necklace go there" section.

[i]Edit: Okay, Rowan already clarified this for us, but a slight bit more clarification might be helpful. "[A]vailable items for many classes in each cluster" doesn't necessarily translate to "desirable items for many classes in each cluster."

Regarding another part of the dev diary, specifically this:

The greater sets require having the corresponding lesser piece, having completed Tier 2 of the appropriate raid, and some of the new gems which drop from the Erebor raids.

Um, why do we need to get the lesser armor piece first? I know that you've done something similar with the Saruman necklaces and the new Rohan barter rings, but that's for 1-2 pieces and seems somewhat reasonable.

Why make those people who are capable of and only doing the T2/T2C content bother with bartering first for the T1 armor? The only reason I can think of is "timesink", because the T1 armor is not something that we're going to bother wearing anyway. Throw in the fact that we'll have to spend the first X amount of seals we earn on the bag-filling T1 armor, and it really doesn't seem like you're doing anything other than artificially delaying the amount of time it's going to take people to get their T2 armor.

[uadan]

Ok, that covers sets and new gear drops, but what about the game changing stat change on power and agi. I more consered with what happens to my current gear. I will be using most of my curent gear for at least 6 month, unless I start raiding which i have done little of yet.

[Fremdkoerper]

well, from my point of view, players morale is - literally - down from mindless grind. too often without any reward. i dont understand why the system working for five years had to be changed to worse. now reading that the remote-looting-bull&&&& will be expanded to other instance-clusters and instances will drop only class-specific stuff (... and the new golden stuff bein still ulta-rare ...) - well, its kinda time to look out for other mmorgp that may fit my kind of playstyle more.
i hope not all damage is done already, rockx please change your mind, you dont seem to know what you are doin to playerbase.

[Ulanor_EU]

well, from my point of view, players morale is - literally - down from mindless grind. too often without any reward. i dont understand why the system working for five years had to be changed to worse. now reading that the remote-looting-bull&&&& will be expanded to other instance-clusters and instances will drop only class-specific stuff (... and the new golden stuff bein still ulta-rare ...) - well, its kinda time to look out for other mmorgp that may fit my kind of playstyle more.
i hope not all damage is done already, rockx please change your mind, you dont seem to know what you are doin to playerbase.

Seriously what are you reading ?

[Mar-Evayave]

but again that is not what was definitively said, all we know is dps necklaces come from a different instance to tank ones. doesnt mean tank rings come from the same instances as the tank necklaces or that they dont come from the one with the dps necklaces for example. What we do really need though is it explained clearly as this confusion is silly.

Agreed with your final sentence. As it stands now, a lot of people like myself are fretting over the matter because the dev diary was vague, though Rowan's comments help). If it works the way you and some others are theorizing, then that will definitely ease my mind.

[bastiat1]

No, it wont be like this at all. You have little experience with MMO End games I suppose.

I've beaten every raid in the game on-level on the highest challenge condition. But whatevers.

What will happen is:

Instance X will have say DPS Necklace drop, Healer Bracelt Drop, and Tank Ring drop (example)

Maybe you don't have much experience in end-game MMOs so let me explain it to you. Healer doesn't want the teal bracelet from Cluster A because Healer is wearing/wanting the gold Horse-lords bracelet which is twice as powerful. Tank doesn't want the teal ring drop from Cluster A because Tank is wearing the gold Snowbourne barterable upgrade that he got with gem drops from the Erebor raids on T1.

You seem to think this will be some triumphant return to the Moria instances which everyone wanted to run. Those instances were successful because every class needed to run them for the armour sets. There is no such commonality here. In fact, because the epic jewelry is so much better than teal jewelry people will be even more divergent in the instances they want to run.

Sure, people will still run instances they don't want to run just to help their friends. Many others won't. The point is that the Developers are creating strong incentives for people to only run select instances. It's just stupid. The Developers have been making one decision failure after another of late. It's completely ridiculous.

The smart thing to do would be to allow all of the epic pieces to drop from all of the clusters and then balance the drop rates based on how often the content is run en masse. Consider this example:

Assumptions:
1. Turbine wants a 1% drop chance (who knows what they want really)
2. Turbine can track the number of instances that are run (they tell us they can)
3. Turbine can adjust drop rates periodically server-side (they tell us they can)

Objective:
1. Balance drop rates around the target rate (1%) to encourage running of lesser run content

Implementation:
1. Count instances run
2. Divided each R_avg into R_i and multiply by 1% to find a Drop_i
3. Adjust drop rate for Instance i to Drop^_i
4. Communicate adjustments to community and let them decide what they want to run

Instancei	Runsi	Ravg/Ri	Dropi	E(Dropsi)
Warg Pens	200	1.0	1.0%	2
Halls of Night	100	2.0	2.0%	2
School at Tham Mirdan	50	4.0	4.0%	2
Sammath Gul	150	1.3	1.3%	2
Lost Temple	500	0.4	0.4%	2
Total	1,000		1.0%	10

The drop yield from each instance over any given period of time would be equal across all of them. Easier instances would be run to optimize on time, which would reduce the drop rate, which then encourages people to run tougher content. The drop rate then adjusts until you reach equilibrium. The algorithm is incredibly easy to implement with the tools that the Developers currently have available to them.

This would encourage all instances to be run on a regular basis. People could easily self-select into the instances they want based upon instance difficulty, their skill level, and the drop chance. Hell, the average player would actually be incented to use the Instance Finder since the expected value per unit time would all be the same once equilibrium is achieved.

[Wartober]

I talked this through with Rock, and want to clarify a bit.

The design intention here is not to route every tank (and their group) through the same instance cluster repeatedly. The goal is to give you motivation to go to multiple spaces, with available items for many classes in each cluster. The gear drops have been distributed across clusters.

You appear to be wanting to prevent a "Grand Stairs" instance to gain all the gear. Bravo for that.

THIS though, isn't the way to do it. What this will do is leave classes left out, it will piss off players who can't get into a group because 300 pst'd when someone advertised for a specific class.

Just shuffle all of the gear evenly throughout each loot table. So in Lost Temple, for example, you have a chance to get a tanking piece, or a ranged dps piece, or a melee dps piece, or a tact piece etc.

Do it the other way and for example the tact dps piece you'll have the tank, whoever that is, and nothing but RK's, LM's and Mini's with no others in site. That's a net-reduction in content if I'm not of the class that instance's loot is for.

C'mon guys, you GOTTA START PLAYING THE GAME AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!