Introducing the 2013 LOTRO Player Council

[Starbuck1771]

No matter what happens, someone will be displeased. If there were more raiders on the council, there would be complaints from the soloers. If there were more with the attitude of "it's only a game, let's have flying mounts", there would be complaints from the lore purists. For practically every outspoken group in the game, there is an equal and opposite group just as outspoken in favor of proving the other side wrong.

But these rifts in the community are not new, they have existed literally longer than the game itself. The council might be putting a new context to these old arguments, but it is neither the cause nor the cure to any of these problems.

Hence the reason polls would have been the way to go. Makeing the rifts between these groups bigger is why the council is doomed to failure. Because thats exactly what will happen.

Were you voted into this position by your peers (AKA the LotRO players)? No

Will you support your peers opinions? No

Are you allowed to discuss issues on the board with the community? No

Were you placed in a position of power that could change the game for the worse? Yes

In the end what will you have acomplished? Nothing

The answers to those questions are why the council is doomed.

[Lilywarrior]

Howdy y'all! I'm Sauve on the Gilrain server.

I've been playing LOTRO since before openning day. I've been a Tolkien fan even longer.

My playstyle is usually solo, but fellowing and raiding are not out of the question. I am an irreverent & very casual rp'r. Crafting is passion or ordeal, depending on which profession we are talking about, but I have them all. I have pvp'd in other mmos but not extensively, it is not my passion. Community and kinship are my passions.

I'm from America but live in France. If you want to pass some suggestions along to me to pass along you may email me here in the forums.

It's my goal to represent the player community to the best of my ability.

[Lobla]

Edited

[Lobla]

First off - Yes I'm a hardcore raider, I live for the end game content in this game and so far I'm struggling to motivate myself to play after the recent shambles of what was meant to be the latest instalment of "end game"....

Smaug T2C (nice mechanic, certainly a break from the norm) to easy, Flight T2C (Barrow Downs Survival epic broken mode), BfE T2C being the only fun one.

After that, there is the choice of the Moors (lag fest) or the grind. I don't mind a grind by the way but 370+ runs of Annu instance's for the CPT bracelet and nothing, then some bambi next to me in the AH with 2 and got them on consecutive runs! Apparently listening to Reggae music increases his drop chance, needless to say didn't work for me!

Anyway...

I'm sure the people who have been selected will do there up most for what ever it is they'll be pushing for, but from what I've read over the last few days I can't see how the raiding community is going to be fairly represented regardless of what server their from.

A President or Prime Minster doesn't take council from somebody who isn't experienced in their field, they take it from somebody who's got the most experience.

Like many who have already commented, unless the person has done;

Helegrod, Rift, DN, BG, OD, ToO and all the lair bosses on level and in the hardest mode and is recognised by the raiding community in Lotro this back lash will never settle.

So you could deduce one thing from this latest round of Player Council invites, there isn't going to be a raid in the next 6-9months therefore the council doesn't require somebody of this nature.

Maybe in the next round of invites it'll happen then, my guess it'll be too late by then as the feedback on the content would of come from the wrong people.

Lob

[Cerebrum_EU]

Congratulation to all selected members of the Player Council.
I hope you will enjoy working for the community and bridge the gap between the players and developers.


They way the members were selected seems to be absolutely random and not comprehensible.
There were members in the council which haven't created a community-forum account yet, just a game account. I do not understandhow such council members will communicate and represent the online community - maybe by telephone?

Nothing to say about the raiding fraction... A high number in the gameplay profile (in the raiding element) seems to be enough.

[OverlordGate]

As I can see there are no pvmp or raid members in the council who aren´t casual players!

[FundinStrongarm66]

Hence the reason polls would have been the way to go. Makeing the rifts between these groups bigger is why the council is doomed to failure. Because thats exactly what will happen.

Were you voted into this position by your peers (AKA the LotRO players)? No

Will you support your peers opinions? No

Are you allowed to discuss issues on the board with the community? No

Were you placed in a position of power that could change the game for the worse? Yes

In the end what will you have acomplished? Nothing

The answers to those questions are why the council is doomed.

You're in luck! One of the things the council will do is assist in surveys to the general community.

From the announcement: Participate in and help design focused feedback surveys for the council and the general community.

[Souku]

people need to realize that the council members aren't meant to be our representatives, because if they were then we would have been the ones to pick them through an election of some sort. they are just people that Sapience (and i assume others at Turbine) think will be useful for whatever purpose. if you aren't happy with who was chosen, don't take it out on the people who were picked for the council because it isn't their fault that they were picked.

[SabrielofLorien]

A few tidbits to think about... is the main word here.

People generally, have diverse interests. They can be interested in more than one area (of anything). Council members are the same. They can have diverse interests.

Not everyone is a yes-sir, yes-mam on the council. The COC and TOS remove any traces of this so you can't grep the forums (unless you go to the internet archives). Most everyone in the forums and in the game, cares about the game. We want things to be better (by our own definition). Sometimes that conflicts with the views of WB/T and fingers get singed. Traces of singed fingers are removed from the forums.

There are a lot of things that the council may or may not be able to do or confer on prior to development. IF something gets left out, the rest of the player base may never know. Some things are going to come anyway because the Council is ADVISORY at best. We don't pay the salaries of the WB/T employees and we don't set their financial goals and requirements (which come from WB). It maybe all we can do is like the forum revamp (upcoming in May): from a list of 20 items, pick 5.

Game development is still the purview of management and the devs. The council are not likely going to whip out programming code. We might give suggestions or alternatives but in the end WB/T will decide what, where, when and how something is going to be done. Players can chose to blame the Council for any developments they don't like but the Council doesn't own anything and cannot alter items unless WB/T agrees to alter them.

I don't expect anyone to know me. I don't know you either. I don't recognize any names that are not on my server (Nimrodel). That doesn't mean someone on another server doesn't share my concerns or interests. It just means I haven't met that person yet. You don't know all my alts because you may not know all my accounts. That one account the highest level toon is L26, doesn't mean I don't have a high level toon. It just means I have a L26 toon on that account. There are 100,000x players in LOTRO and I cannot possibly say I know everyone of them. On Nimrodel, sometimes I use /glff and sometimes not. I see lots of names I don't recognize every time I log in. There are character-renames, kinship-renames, character-transfers, new-players, new-toons everyday.

What I can tell you about myself is: I'm going with an open mind. I will do my best to make the game better. I will lobby for those things I think are important. I know, in advance, that not everything is going to be . The council will win some and lose some. What will be gained is deeper insights into what is driving some of the changes and perhaps redirecting some changes to be more positive overall. The Council is not going to be able to mandate things like "that X MUST be done!" We can suggest, coerce, hint, cajole, push, prod and stamp our fingers on the keyboard. This is what I plan to do, for all the players whether they are RPers or Raiders or Casual or any mix in between.

Pre-judging the outcome is poor judgment because we know so little about the entire process.

[Mandli]

people need to realize that the council members aren't meant to be our representatives, because if they were then we would have been the ones to pick them through an election of some sort. they are just people that Sapience (and i assume others at Turbine) think will be useful for whatever purpose. if you aren't happy with who was chosen, don't take it out on the people who were picked for the council because it isn't their fault that they were picked.

I have a sneaking suspicion that it wouldn't have improved the situation if we had elected the council members. People would then claim that is was nothing more than a popularity contest. There might even have been some truth in that. Small groups with very specific interests would probably not be represented any better than they are now, since they wouldn't have enough voting power to carry the elections.

Given the choice, I would have selected the members similar to the way Turbine did. They appear to have made an honest attempt to choose a group of dedicated players representative of multiple, if not all, play styles. It makes no sense to apply some nefarious motive to the selection process. For one thing, even within a group of carefully chosen members, there are bound to be some wildcards; people who will put their foot down or spill the beans if things don't go the way Turbine has proposed them. That holds the real potential of turning into a PR nightmare.

Turbine is taking a chance by creating this council. Just the fact that they have done so has placed their own feet to the fire in many respects. It only makes sense that they would do this if they truly believe the potential benefits outweigh the potential pitfalls and expense. And, the only way that could be true is if the council turns out to be what Turbine purports it to be -- an honest attempt to improve relations with the playing community by allowing us to be heard, and as a way to garner concrete, timely, and useful feedback from the players that can be used in directing future development.

That's my take.

IMHO

[Lilka]

They way the members were selected seems to be absolutely random and not comprehensible.

They sent in applications via email. How is that incomprehensible?

There were members in the council which haven't created a community-forum account yet, just a game account.

What's a 'community forum account'? They don't have to have a fancy Mylotro prescence to be a player - and many don't, especially EU-transfers, because it hasn't worked properly for years. Also, those in the list there are Character Names, not their forum names. They most likely do have forum accounts, just under another name.

The council isn't there to

represent the online community

it represents the players. And not all players use these bug-riddled, over-negative forums. In my last kin, I was the only member who came here. Everyone else quite rightly thought they were a shout-fest.

[Lilka]

As I can see there are no pvmp or raid members in the council who aren´t casual players!

It's amazing you know all 70ish members and their playstyles!

Also, we have no plans to 'provide contact information' for council members. You were given their names used on their servers. There is 0 plan to share any personally identifiable information with anyone. Legally we cannot.

Noooo. This was asked? People cannot be so dense...

Can you imagine, you hear a knock at the door someday and it's a nerd demanding a new PvMP zone.

[MrWarg]

As I can see there are no pvmp or raid members in the council who aren´t casual players!

I would not consider myself a casual PvMPer.

[Honvikuk]

It's amazing you know all 70ish members and their playstyles!



Noooo. This was asked? People cannot be so dense...

Can you imagine, you hear a knock at the door someday and it's a nerd demanding a new PvMP zone.

Jesus so right! It be like a warg pack trying to get to your car!

[Honvikuk]

Anyone huge congrats to all that got in. Make us proud :P

[RavnDottir]

I would not consider myself a casual PvMPer.

I would have to agree with Mr. Warg .. this is no casual PvMPer.

Please take a glance at the "Art of Warg" Site.
It is VERY Informative & hardly the work of a casual player.

My Hat off to Mr. Warg & I believe that as an addition to the council, we are nothting but blessed.

Wyllo

[StavroMuellerBeta]

Hence the reason polls would have been the way to go.

I agree completely.

But given the quality of previous polls, perhaps part of the reason of the council is to write quality polls and accurately interpret the results in a way that will benefit the game as a whole.

Makeing the rifts between these groups bigger is why the council is doomed to failure. Because thats exactly what will happen.

At the current rate, I agree. But I'll wait for the council to actually get started before making any predictions on its success or failure.

Were you voted into this position by your peers (AKA the LotRO players)? No

"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job." ~Douglas Adams

A popularity contest would not have increased the quality of the council at all, it would have only ended up serving those who have already placed themselves in a position of power, while smaller groups/servers wouldn't have any voice at all.

At risk of crossing the line into politics, I believe that directly voting for council members would have created a council with the exact same effectiveness and approval rating as the US congress. That's not to say this method is better than a democratically-chosen council, but why go with the inherently flawed system when an alternative might produce better results?

Will you support your peers opinions? No

That's a choice that every member has to make for themselves, and that answer will likely change from one situation to the next.

I could lie and say that I'll try to support the opinion of everyone, but I know that's not possible. But what I can say is that I will try my hardest to bring profitable alternatives to things that are hurting the game as a whole, such as the monetization of previously free features, the ever-increasing soloification, and the outright abandonment of things that were once a cornerstone of the game.

Are you allowed to discuss issues on the board with the community? No

The NDA only says that non-public information cannot be shared, it says nothing about sharing educated guesses and informed opinions. I.E, while it might be against the rules to say "in U15 you'll be able to loot or buy a "Whetstone of Progression" that will increase the equip level of your LI", but it should be within the rules to say "legendary items have serious issues and need to be completely revamped".

And as I've already said, if we have any power at all, it should be trivial to set up an official channel of meaningful two-way communication (and I don't mean semi-annual "letters" written by the PR department with feedback threads that are locked in 5-7 days).

Were you placed in a position of power that could change the game for the worse? Yes

In the end what will you have acomplished? Nothing

Are we in a position of power able to change the game? Or are we figureheads and scapegoats that can't accomplish anything? It seems to me those two positions are mutually exclusive. Personally, I'd recommend waiting to see what kind of power the council actually has before making such claims.

The answers to those questions are why the council is doomed.

As a council member, I think it would be improper to make predictions of doom with so little information. But if I were not on the council I would likely be asking the exact same questions you are right now, just as I have been for some time.

Please don't take my disagreement with your points as disapproval of your message, because you are bringing up very valid points. And if your points prove true, I will be referencing this conversation to show what kind of issues there are in the council.

But from one naysayer to another, please, give us a chance before declaring our failure.

[Thorwyn99]

Well some people you can throw the whole boar and they won't be satisfied.

Grats and good luck to the chosen members!

[Fredelas]

Well some people you can throw the whole boar and they won't be satisfied.

Grats and good luck to the chosen members!

So THAT'S where all the boars from Evendim went.

I should have known...

[Thorwyn99]

Well sacrifices had to be made.

[Yicky]

As I can see there are no pvmp or raid members in the council who aren´t casual players!

I am definitely NOT a casual pvper. I spend 95% of my time in PVP. I am a leader/officer of one of the oldest and most dedicated PvP tribes, I have written the Weaver portion of the monster manual over the years as well as maintain the manual, I am a moderator for the dailystats site, and I spend a lot of my in game and out of game time trying to make pvp the best it can be for both sides.

And as I have said before, that is my main goal as a council member. To try to make pvp something that everyone wants to do. To make it as fun and wanted as end game, to make freeps and creeps alike want to come out for the enjoyment, rewards, and community.

I know the moors very well. Over the years I have heard feedback on both positive and negative aspects of the moors and I look forward to attempt to make it 100 times better than it is now.

[Devro]

It's amazing you know all 70ish members and their playstyles!



Noooo. This was asked? People cannot be so dense...

Can you imagine, you hear a knock at the door someday and it's a nerd demanding a new PvMP zone.

Lol...I imagine he would become quite tongue-tied at the prospect of trying to demand anything from the 6'3" U.S. Marine in the doorway, wondering why some nerd is bothering him at dinner......

[MrKeks]

5 Wardens on 2 Servers, all of them < lvl 55, no other character beyond that level...a veeeeeery different playstyle for the council^^

[Judgejoako]

Well, thank you Turbine for proving what we have been saying for ages: you spit on raiders, now you want to focus on casual gaming and the possible reasons you have for it are 1 of 2:

1. You cannot make real endgame content anymore because its above your skills
2. You think that the raiding community is too small to be taken in consideration (WRONG!)

If you really think raiders are a small % of the community, is simply because you made them leave with the awful content offered in Rohan and in RoI. You should acnowledge that raiders are hardcore and thus they should be your primary target for economic profit. However you are not focused in what the game needs andd you are milking players and bleeding the game until all goes away.

Be careful on what you are doing, hire competent ppl, because your current devs are clowns and, once again, uyou didnt do what you promised: almost non raider participation in the council.

you must be real smart ppl.

[ManticoreFalco]

I'd like to point out that I am a raider (if not the most hardcore of the hardcore) and have raided with you.