I grow weary from all the negativity.

[TheCrossbow]

Can you point out where I wasn't using reason in my posts? They all contain the use of inductive arguments. I don't think you have the slightest idea what the words you're using mean. The rest of your post is not worth commenting on.

Oh yes. You are using reason. But, when that reasoning follows upon willful ignorance and blatant hatred... even someone like me fails to see how it is called "reason".

First, you accuse the developers of silence. They are very much not silent. But, let's admit it... they just aren't active enough for you. What? Do you expect the developers to answer every question you have the moment you ask it? The only person who would be even remotely required to communicate with us is Sapience. But, the spokesperson isn't there to answer every question. He answers the questions he can answer... and/or has an answer for.

Then, after clearly, answering some of your questions, you accuse Sapience of (basically) not answering to your satisfaction... and at times accusing Sapience (/the devs) of lying and all sorts of things that pretty much tell anyone following your exchange with Sapience that you have no real desire to listen to anything he (or anyone else) says.

And then when someone calls you on it... you respond with a stupid internet meme.

It is a wonder that Sapience (or someone else) hasn't either suspended or banned you for being openly combative with other people and/or a forum moderator.

At this point, I make a motion to have this thread closed and/or deleted on the grounds that this thread has run its course long ago. And now, it is just a platform for a select few people to make direct, personal attacks which never ends well.

[hisoka-thorongil]

Oh yes. You are using reason. But, when that reasoning follows upon willful ignorance and blatant hatred... even someone like me fails to see how it is called "reason".

First, you accuse the developers of silence. They are very much not silent. But, let's admit it... they just aren't active enough for you. What? Do you expect the developers to answer every question you have the moment you ask it? The only person who would be even remotely required to communicate with us is Sapience. But, the spokesperson isn't there to answer every question. He answers the questions he can answer... and/or has an answer for.

Then, after clearly, answering some of your questions, you accuse Sapience of (basically) not answering to your satisfaction... and at times accusing Sapience (/the devs) of lying and all sorts of things that pretty much tell anyone following your exchange with Sapience that you have no real desire to listen to anything he (or anyone else) says.

And then when someone calls you on it... you respond with a stupid internet meme.

It is a wonder that Sapience (or someone else) hasn't either suspended or banned you for being openly combative with other people and/or a forum moderator.

At this point, I make a motion to have this thread closed and/or deleted on the grounds that this thread has run its course long ago. And now, it is just a platform for a select few people to make direct, personal attacks which never ends well.

I'm not going to ring around the rosy again with you. I've given this thread my opinion, with a number of my posts having been increased with reputation, so for some at least, agreement is found - that you don't agree with my opinion is fine, but to say that I'm combative or am deserving of a ban because I posted a funny, and witty I like to think, gif...I point you to that gif again to understand how baffling your disagreement is.

This thread shouldn't be closed. It has worthwhile discussion both upon what has been discussed lately as well as discussion upon the OP.

Now, good day, sir, and lighten up a bit.

[TheCrossbow]

I'm not going to ring around the rosy again with you. I've given this thread my opinion, with a number of my posts having been increased with reputation, so for some at least, agreement is found - that you don't agree with my opinion is fine, but to say that I'm combative or am deserving of a ban because I posted a funny, and witty I like to think, gif...I point you to that gif again to understand how baffling your disagreement is.

This thread shouldn't be closed. It has worthwhile discussion both upon what has been discussed lately as well as discussion upon the OP.

Now, good day, sir, and lighten up a bit.

It is interesting that you say this. So, let us go back to your first post in this thread and see if what you claim as "reason" actually measures up?

Your belittling of the 'conspiracy theorists' doesn't at all seem appropriate. If you think a portion of the community that wants honest communication between game company and subsequent game community are somehow trolls or conspiracy theorists, then you should most certainly take another look at the ones of whom your demonizing.

There are quite a few posters who (as I've observed) have this notion in their head about things regarding LOTRO/Turbine that are not true. These people seem to have an idea about how things are working "behind the scenes" that is not at all true. And, anyone with common sense knows that these conspiracies are just that... conspiracies.

At the heart of the recent hubbub, most, if not all, players who play this game want communication and respect between and from Turbine. You and your fellow staff have not been doing so, thus you have angry posters wanting change, more communication(gasp!), and acknowledgment of key, important issues concerning the game, issues that could spell the end of Lotro in one way or the other.

There is a huge problem with this statement... There is plenty of communication from Turbine to us mostly via Sapience. He posts and shares the information he has and is able to share. Unfortunately, for quite a few, the communication we do receive will never be enough. There is also a reasonable level of communication beyond which a company (like Turbine) should NOT engage in because of the risk of giving up too many "secrets" that they are correct to withhold.
And, the answers/communication that Turbine has given us either get ignored or discounted because people don't like the answers given.

You can't have it both ways.

Of course, there are plenty of trolls posting repeated topics, blatant troll posts, etc., but it seems to me that if anything at all negative, i.e. not rubbing Turbine's back-side, is posted, it is ignored, banned, what have you. For me, it's baffling as to why you, Sapience, as both a human being and a game company employee refuses to post responses to the very players who help fund your paycheck. Unless, of course, you cannot say anything besides 'soon' or what not. If this is the case, it is a travesty that you must be haunted by at the long hours of night, for I could not live with myself not being able to serve the player-base in the most ethical manner possible.

Actually, if you took a good look at ALL of the forums, there are quite a few threads that repeatedly rake Turbine over the coals for a variety of things... or expressing concerns about "future" LOTRO content. I don't see them being removed.
The topics/posts that get removed are those that violate the forum rules... which Turbine has every right to enforce because they own these forums. You do not have the right to post whatever you want. These are privately owned forums. Your "freedom of speech" ends where the forum rules begin. By using these forums, you are, in effect, agreeing to abide by those rules.

Hopefully I have not come off as a demon from the depths to you, and I also hope you read this whole post, as I deem it worthy of your time, else I wouldn't have spent the time on you, nor the game I used to immensely enjoy.

It would seem that, sadly, within your original post you are spouting "facts" that do not measure up with reality. Sorry, but to have "reason", you must also be "debating" with the facts as they exist in the real world... not whatever preconceived notions you have in your head.

So, how about we try this again when you have something to say that is based on the real facts?

[hisoka-thorongil]

It is interesting that you say this. So, let us go back to your first post in this thread and see if what you claim as "reason" actually measures up?




It would seem that, sadly, within your original post you are spouting "facts" that do not measure up with reality. Sorry, but to have "reason", you must also be "debating" with the facts as they exist in the real world... not whatever preconceived notions you have in your head.

So, how about we try this again when you have something to say that is based on the real facts?

You also employ the word reason without the slightest idea of what it might refer to. Have you taken any philosophy or cognitive science course? If you did, you would notice that the faculty of reason, generally speaking, deals with nothing but notions in your head! It conceptualizes perceptions and thus enables me to make use of said concepts in language by means of inductive arguments (though this is not the only means), which I have been making in all my posts. Their truth or falsity depends on whether they match up to reality, as you said, but reason itself merely enables one to make such arguments based on concepts. Because neither you nor I know the truth of the matter with regard to my concerns about this game, since Turbine has remained silent, my points still stand. They have not been falsified.

Now, with that said, what are you still doing here replying to me? Are you trying to bait Sapience into banning me? Is that what you do for kicks? Go be annoying elsewhere.

[Eartholloth]

I'm sorry this went over your head. What you should probably do in response is blindly defend turbine in the hopes they see that you exist by flaming posters you don't agree with.

Wait...

Pot--------->meet kettle

[Beaniemooch]

I had a nice post made and hit Submit Reply but got logged out of the forum in the middle. Nor had I saved it first this time. Sigh.

Watching the meaningless debating of each other instead of the topic at hand is like watching The Big Bang Theory without the humor.

Happy 4th of July to those who still play and those who have moved on to other games. And thanks Sapience for at least keeping active in this thread, even though I don't think I always got a complete answer.

[undying........]

... for at least keeping active in this thread, even though I don't think I always got a complete answer.

but as long as you are happy with being threated as a third grade Partner in this trade, this arrogance will never stop ...

[k3nn3th]

It is clear that you have no intention of answering the question and therefore I won't ask it again. However a brief statement of fact is in order:

You have only answered the question of whether it was a bug. No one has asked that question in this thread. You have not answered the question of why this information was not provided during the time that the bug existed. That is the question that was actually asked.

This is a perfect illustration of the communication problems being raised. People ask a question. A non-responsive answer is given. Then based on this pretense, when people continue to ask the question because it in fact has not been answered, they are accused of being lazy, childish, trolling, impervious to reason, etc. etc. How is this possibly effective communication or good PR

Thank you from the bottom of my LOTRO-loving heart, NukeTheLag, for your very constructive post that (bolded) absolutely demonstrates one of the major issues and causes of frustration in regards to communication, or lack thereof. The name calling and pigeon-holing of innocent curious posters in our community I have seen in this thread alone (and there are others) coming from our Community Manager are completely appalling and abhorrent, since (as bolded demonstrates) it is quite clear that many players posts/words/intentions are skewed, ignored, and/or turned back on them in a very NEGATIVE and unjust manner be it cold-shoulder, insisting that you have been given the answer(s) to your question(s) when apparently, those who have "already given the responses" are either not even aware of what questions are really being asked, or by who, or in what manner --- or have absolutely no intention of answering the true question at all, and are beating around the bush via wordplay.

My sincerest apologies to you that Sapience will most likely ignore your post entirely per norm (in that this question which has been asked MANY times, among other valid and vital questions, is continuously ignored), yet do not be surprised if Rick does choose to respond to other, non-constructive/not-contributing-to-the-topic posts, and continue to point out your and other constructive truth-speaking/truth-searching posters' apparent laziness, childishness, conspiracy-theorizing, etc. in this and other threads, per norm.

[Souldan]

Thank you from the bottom of my LOTRO-loving heart, NukeTheLag, for your very constructive post that (bolded) absolutely demonstrates one of the major issues and causes of frustration in regards to communication, or lack thereof. The name calling and pigeon-holing of innocent curious posters in our community I have seen in this thread alone (and there are others) coming from our Community Manager are completely appalling and abhorrent, since (as bolded demonstrates) it is quite clear that many players posts/words/intentions are skewed, ignored, and/or turned back on them in a very NEGATIVE and unjust manner be it cold-shoulder, insisting that you have been given the answer(s) to your question(s) when apparently, those who have "already given the responses" are either not even aware of what questions are really being asked, or by who, or in what manner --- or have absolutely no intention of answering the true question at all, and are beating around the bush via wordplay.

My sincerest apologies to you that Sapience will most likely ignore your post entirely per norm (in that this question which has been asked MANY times, among other valid and vital questions, is continuously ignored), yet do not be surprised if Rick does choose to respond to other, non-constructive/not-contributing-to-the-topic posts, and continue to point out your and other constructive truth-speaking/truth-searching posters' apparent laziness, childishness, conspiracy-theorizing, etc. in this and other threads, per norm.

I would second that thank you to NuketheLag. I had a similar experience in another thread today and actually got negative rep to boot for my trouble. Indeed communication volume around here (as in amount) does not equal communication quality. Perhaps Washington could benefit from it but we do not, lol.

[Luthred]

We have a saying where I come from...

People vote with their feet.

If you're unhappy with something then leave. No-one asks you to stay, no-one asks you to complain endlessly about how bad things are.

If things are that bad, just go... Leave! And take your negativity with you.

...people leave, here in Germany, lot's of my friends (players from the beginning) are gone. But they never complained in the forums, they just leave.

Why? Performance is still worse and it's getting worser. The few who wrote that in the forums didn't get any official answer (in the german forums). I'm sad about this, but what can they/we do?
We have to talk about that in the forums, that's what it's for, to talk to Turbine, not only about the good things.

[dfisher95350]

... because I want them to know I love it and want it to be better.

++

First, I agree with the OP that LOTROs F2P business model is fair and good.

Now for some negativity about the graphics engine. 2012-13 is a watershed year for MMOs. It used to be that LOTRO's only serious competition was the way-back-machine to WoW. Frustratingly, old WoW still had and has a much more polished, solid engine, if lower res. Now we have a flood of very high quality competition on the market: Guild Wars 2, Rift, TERA, Neverwinter, with FF14, ESO and WildStar on the way. All the ones I have mentioned that are released (including old WoW) have much cleaner more polished, less craptastically lazy engines. I really don't want to see LOTRO get steamrolled. I've played many other MMOs, and while the highs in LOTROs engine can be very high, the glitchy, trashy, inviso-wally, dark and/or desaturated lows can be very, very low.

[Kaedian66]

When you consider what you can get in this game for zero out-of-pocket cost and by simply playing/leveling, there is no mmo out there that can compare.

As good/great/spectacular as that sounds and is, it is the the other edge of the free-to-play-mmo sword that causes the issue.

The wave of free to play games has opened up the genre to a greatly larger audience and in so doing has eroded the overall quality of player. With no real investment required, players tend to flit from title to title as expansions/patches come out and don't bother to put forth the effort to truly learn A class, much less each class they play. As the games get inundated by the casual ftp masses, the gameplay is modified to retain them in the hopes they will spend *something* and in so doing, justifying the move to the ftp model.

With the lack of real consequence for "dying" there is no need to work on strategies outside of the zerg for the bulk of the encounters. Naturally there are exceptions, and those end up being nerfed as time goes on when the masses complain.

[TheCrossbow]

++

First, I agree with the OP that LOTROs F2P business model is fair and good.

Now for some negativity about the graphics engine. 2012-13 is a watershed year for MMOs. It used to be that LOTRO's only serious competition was the way-back-machine to WoW. Frustratingly, old WoW still had and has a much more polished, solid engine, if lower res. Now we have a flood of very high quality competition on the market: Guild Wars 2, Rift, TERA, Neverwinter, with FF14, ESO and WildStar on the way. All the ones I have mentioned that are released (including old WoW) have much cleaner more polished, less craptastically lazy engines. I really don't want to see LOTRO get steamrolled. I've played many other MMOs, and while the highs in LOTROs engine can be very high, the glitchy, trashy, inviso-wally, dark and/or desaturated lows can be very, very low.

Thing is though... you can have the greatest graphics and still have a &&&&&& game (and vice verse). Just talk to anyone who has played some of the older games back when graphics weren't all that great (compared with now). Starcraft? That game (now) has horrible graphics (the original Starcraft). But, that was (and still is) and awesome game. It was so awesome and defining that we even adapted terminology from it (example: the term "zerg___" came from Starcraft).

You also have to keep in mind that not everyone who plays MMOs and/or other games these days owns cutting-edge gaming computers. Therefore, not everyone playing will be able to experience the full awesome graphics.

So, there is a need to balance the graphics with a really good game that will entice people to play regardless of how great the picture looks.

[whheydt]

The wave of free to play games has opened up the genre to a greatly larger audience and in so doing has eroded the overall quality of player. With no real investment required, players tend to flit from title to title as expansions/patches come out and don't bother to put forth the effort to truly learn A class, much less each class they play. As the games get inundated by the casual ftp masses, the gameplay is modified to retain them in the hopes they will spend *something* and in so doing, justifying the move to the ftp model.

Sigh... It's probably because the Civil Rights movement really took off during my mid- to late-teens, but that above reads much like "look at our cities going to Hell in hand basket because THOSE people are moving in."

What we are actually seeing is the democatization of the games. MMOs are becoming acceptable--and played--by vastly more people than ever before. There really is a silver lining in your large, dark cloud.

[Jeffor]

Sigh... It's probably because the Civil Rights movement really took off during my mid- to late-teens, but that above reads much like "look at our cities going to Hell in hand basket because THOSE people are moving in."

What we are actually seeing is the democatization of the games. MMOs are becoming acceptable--and played--by vastly more people than ever before. There really is a silver lining in your large, dark cloud.

I've never really understood that argument either. I've met some mighty fine F2P folks since the switch. I met plenty of repugnant basement-dweller types beforehand as well.

[Radhruin_EU]

What we are actually seeing is the democatization of the games. MMOs are becoming acceptable--and played--by vastly more people than ever before. There really is a silver lining in your large, dark cloud.

How is that a silver lining if the gameplay tends to become ever more shallow in the process? It's hardly democratization when there was never any real barrier to entry - it's just popularization, accompanied by wholesale monetization in order to nickel-and-dime the punters and progressive simplification in order not to put them off.

[MoonwalkIntoMordor]

What we are actually seeing is the democratization of the games.

A democracy can turn into a tyranny of the majority, which is not quite democratic. Then again, that's irrelevant since what has been happening in the gaming industry in the past 10-15 years has got nothing to do with democratization. It's just the publishers trying to appeal to a wider audience. For what? Gee, I wonder...

I'm not saying this to criticize the very basic idea of trying to appeal to the masses for more income in an open market, as I accept that reality without condoning or condemning. It's just that I was caught by your interpretation of the situation. Trying to paint it as "democratization" is unrealistic. You and I are just customers without any true power over the development process.

[Beaniemooch]

I would also categorize this as designing to the lowest common denominator. When you have to make everything playable by the most basic level of player, those with the smallest amount of time to play, and for those who want everything without having to do anything they don't enjoy - you end up with Hobbit present content. Log in and get everything just for showing up. But wait, there's nothing to do. Aren't you glad you geared up for that?

Not having 20 hours a week to put into a game is fine. If you want a specific reward and need to do content and can't pug it, find a kin with people who are of like mind - they are out there. Wanting everything by doing only what you feel like destroys the game for everyone, including you (and I use the you generically, no individual person in mind). Moors is an example. I can want the Moors gear forever, but if I don't PvMP I will never get it. There is nothing wrong with specific reward for specific content.

Lowest common denominator is no way to design.

[ilikeham49]

(This is my first post on the forums, as I prefer to spend my free time playing rather than typing. However I felt compelled to speak my mind about this.)

Let me just preface this by stating that I am in fact a LotRO Fanboy. But I am also a Fanboy of MMO's in general. I love MMOs of all types, genres, and payment models. I have been exclusively playing MMO's for the last 8 years. And I have to say that the only thing I have come to find truly frustrating about MMO's in general is the attitude of the very vocal minorities on the forums. So much hate gets spewed at the developers that it is a wonder official forums are even supported by the game companies to begin with. Now I know it may seem unfair to make such a generalized statement, and I acknowledge that for every negative post there are always some positive ones to try and balance it out. But I just don't understand why so many forum posters are dead set on creating such a negative atmosphere.

Lately I have been most frustrated with the seemingly endless anger towards game companies attempting to monetize their games and turn a profit. Here is a simple truth, Game companies need to make money. Shocking I know! If Companies like Turbine do not continually find ways to create profit within their game then the game that we all love(lets face it, we all love this game. Even the ones that take the time to complain about it and state otherwise.) will have to shut down. If you are looking to play a game and not spend a dime then your are part of the problem. It is ignorant to think that just because a game has the moniker of F2P that you should expect to play said game indefinitely without being asked to spend some money. That being said, I realize that there are varying degrees with which different companies decide to monetize their games. And of the many games out there that support the microtransaction model, LotRO is far and away one of the best if not the best of the bunch. An example of community hate that has gone way too far would be the recent addition of the hobbit presents. Just scroll through the ongoing discussion under the developer diaries post and you eyes will be assaulted with flame after flame over the addition of this system into the game. Lets break down what the hobbit presents are... A completely optional FREE GIFT that is bestowed either once daily or once weekly. These gifts include vendor trash worth some coin, class applicable account bound middle of the road gear, and valuable cash store items that can be worth a considerable amount of real life money. You also have the option to roll more times for chances at more stuff by paying a small fee. Who gets mad about being given FREE stuff? It is FREE with no obligation and yet the community is in an uproar over it. Just plain silly.

That was just one example of the many things the vocal community chooses to crucify the developers over. I will not take the time to go into them all here(time spent in the forums is time spent not playing). Also I would like to state a fact that the players rarely seem to acknowledge, which is the major contributing factor as to why I consider LotRO's F2P model to be the best in the market right now, and that is that Turbine allows you to earn legitimate cash shop currency by simply playing their game. I have not encountered any other F2P title that does this in the way that LotRO does. Most games will never give you the opportunity to acquire the items in their cash shops unless you (prancing) pony up the dough. You can literally play LotRO and acquire all the things you want from the cash shop and never spend a cent as long as you are willing to work for it. And yet players have the audacity to call Turbine greedy.

LotRO players, you are spoiled. You do not realize how good you have it. I for one am thankful that Turbine is always looking for new and interesting ways to generate profit. Because as long as they are making money, the doors to middle earth will remain open to me. So long as LotRO remains profitable we will continue to receive quality expansion packs, bug fixes, and content revamps. No game will ever be perfect and you cannot please everyone. But next time you feel frustrated about something in the game, maybe take a second to breath before you go on the forums and tear the developers a new one. I guarantee you that the developers are doing the best they can to create a game that their players love while simultaneously being profitable. LotRO has always been known for having the best community. And It has been a point of pride for me as a founder of LotRO to be a part of that community. So lets step it up a bit and put our support behind our development team instead of bombarding them with contempt(and maybe toss a little money their way every now and then also).

-Grumfin Broadbeard

no, the quality has gone, this negativity is well earned on the premise of false promises, corporate pulling, and the devs censoring anyone who stands up against them

[Damojo]

no, the quality has gone, this negativity is well earned on the premise of false promises, corporate pulling, and the devs censoring anyone who stands up against them

Devs don't censor anyone, they develop software. Hence "dev".

[Minquinn]

no, the quality has gone, this negativity is well earned on the premise of false promises, corporate pulling, and the devs censoring anyone who stands up against them

No worries I will not be an english teacher with your post. You see I actually read the post without a red marker and then attempt to make examples of people.

I think you are correct as far as the negativity at some levels being deserved when it comes to quality.

I'm pretty sure thought there is a minimum of censorship on these forums as 90% of the posts on most pages are negative. The community managers do a pretty decent job of telling who is a troll and those that have honest opinions feedback. If certain posts are deleted it is due to the wording of said post. (see above)

[Sapience]

...the devs censoring anyone who stands up against them

This is one of my favorite claims. Primarily because it is incredibly easy to verify. One need only look at the forums and see that every post is pure praise and love expressed for all we do. The clear absence of any negative posts, any posts that suggest anyone is the least bit unhappy and that everything is utterly flawless proves this comment to be true.

[Nymphonic]

This is one of my favorite claims. Primarily because it is incredibly easy to verify. One need only look at the forums and see that every post is pure praise and love expressed for all we do. The clear absence of any negative posts, any posts that suggest anyone is the least bit unhappy and that everything is utterly flawless proves this comment to be true.

I know you disabled your rep but I repped you anyway!

Sapience, We don't see eye to eye on some things but I don't for a second believe that threads that criticize Turbine are automatically censored. All somebody has to do is look at page one to see that this is not true.

[Sapience]

I know you disabled your rep but I repped you anyway!

Sapience, We don't see eye to eye on some things but I don't for a second believe that threads that criticize Turbine are automatically censored. All somebody has to do is look at page one to see that this is not true.

Ut oh, you realize you're now going to be referred to as "fanboi" and an apologist right?

[MarkoftheRealm]

Ut oh, you realize you're now going to be referred to as "fanboi" and an apologist right?

I think Nymphonic prefers the term 'acolyte'.