Since when are 1v1s considered "Rank Farming"?

[zaboch]

Right, so recently on Arkenstone a few players on both sides have received bans because they were rank farming. All that was done was fight at an agreed location (GG/Good Grimwood creep map-in).
Well, let's go with the then. What do SSG Gamemasters consider rank farming? We can go on a raging debate for years, but luckily, one of the banned players has provided a screenshot of a response to their ticket.



Time to dismantle this argument.
Have you seen a 1v1 being played out? It's literally a duel where the goal is for one player to kill the other. Saying this, it implies that fights are without surrender and till the death, not simply given out or surrendered to.
Why? Pretty much for fun. There's a good section of players that are regularly engaging in these 1v1s either as a show of skill, simple enjoyment and sportsmanship.
The rewards? A few points of renown, really. Actually, nobody even cares about the reward, they're in it for a fight and the fun of it.
Saying that, how is this then a bannable offence then, in any way, shape or form. What was really done to warrant this suspension?
We already have no sense of PVMP progression, we don't have any new updates to it, hell, we don't even have basic balance (though, Vastin's on the case).
Here's a video of how a 1v1 fight looks like, submitted by Spilo:



Moving on, what does rank farming look like? Really, it's automated, for the most part and it includes multiple accounts being played by one person, with the sole purpose of quickly gaining rank.
Here's a video of how rank farming looks like:




And finally, to summarize. These bans that have been happening are unjustified, even in the frame of the rule said by a GM themself. Fights were done for fun's sake, not the rewards they bring, because really, if people who fight in 1v1s cared about rank progression, there are way better ways of getting the renown, like group raids and zergs.
If this sets a precedent on how 1v1s are viewed and dealt with by the GMs, then you've pretty much killed another part of PVMP.

[Spilo]

So to chime in, I know all 4 of the players who received bans, and none of them have participated in rank farming (actually, one of the players who was banned was R15, a max-rank person getting banned for farming... what, exactly?).

It's a shame that SSG is, once again, shooting themselves in the foot.

In the last month, I established a small community of Freeps/Creeps who enjoy the 1v1 (nerfed and not) circle, because outside GG, you're going to run into the gross imbalance, lag, and shuffle that is the current state of PvP. Now the one enjoyable haven for PvP for many folks is being threatened by either shoddy GM work, or by false reports from shady members of the community.


- LOTRO already confirmed their stance on 1v1s many years ago: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...from-Sapience&

- Unfortunately, unfair banning is not something new to the Moors: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...or-rankfarming

In addition, I have personally reported rank-farming literally dozens of times (blatant AFK farming, reaver bots, people gaining over 100k infamy in a day, etc.), and none of those reports come to fruition. Now we've got a handful of 1v1ers at GG facing bans that blatant rank farmers (who have been farming for years) never faced.

---

This is a really bad look on SSG, and I know that if 1v1s were to fall under Rank Farming, then that would remove any and all interest I have in this game, and I know that's the case for many other folks. You've created a completely toxic, laggy, and imbalanced Open PvP world, and are now removing the community created haven to keep fun and challenge in PvP (all while letting the people actually break the rules get away with it, and continue to get away with for years).


The people in question were not breaking the CoC by the textbook definition of Rank farming, nor were they breaking the stance set by LOTRO years ago.


This is too big of an issue to fall under standard appeals process, and the 1v1 PvP community deserves a response.

[Ringil]

justice, its pretending , no actuall 1v1s, arranged fights you can easily make a deal with player who kills who repeatedly , i hope everyone gets banned for rank farming and exploiting

also these 1v1 areas are simply club zones lets see if we have increased gm presence there

please dont try to justify yourself, its too late now, akrenstone 1ve area should be checked, there were many cases in past when players arrange "duels" via x fire now dead and they simply pretend to fight while they farm each other for hours

excuse is its 1v1 area, its farming area and pathetic. they should all be killed or banned

[SuperPowers]

LOL, banning people just because they are having fun 1vs1ing instead of banning the actual who rankfarm almost 24/7 ? well thats new, and hilarious. people are doing 1vs1s with some rules - mostly some nerfs like not use specific skills to have a fair fight- because of the state of the pvp right now and how it's been stupidly unbalanced and you ban them for that, you really have 0 knowledge about your game and have no idea what you are doing.

[zaboch]

justice, its pretending , no actuall 1v1s, arranged fights you can easily make a deal with player who kills who repeatedly , i hope everyone gets banned for rank farming and exploiting

also these 1v1 areas are simply club zones lets see if we have increased gm presence there

please dont try to justify yourself, its too late now, akrenstone 1ve area should be checked, there were many cases in past when players arrange "duels" via x fire now dead and they simply pretend to fight while they farm each other for hours

excuse is its 1v1 area, its farming area and pathetic. they should all be killed or banned

What did you even write?
It was not just on Arkenstone, it's been done across many servers and across years it changed locations, it wasn't always GG.
Also, if it was obviously rank farming, why is it done in the open field where anyone could pass by and report people there?

Furthermore, there's nothing to be justified here because nothing wrong was done in the first place at all. Fights that happen there are according to COC and the rule laid out years ago. As long as it's not a "given surrender", it's fine. Please.

[Moorsfighter]

I am an active member of the Arkenstone PvMP community and I was deeply troubled by these recent events. I want to ensure fair and uniform application of the CoC to all members of our community while giving some insight into this specific rule itself. Let’s rewind back to Aug. 28 2013 when the CoC was amended to provide framework and definition of (at the time) a troubling trend of rank farming.

The official definition: “The intentional surrender of your character to an enemy; resulting in a purposeful defeat and a gain of infamy or renown to increase rank. Rank farming is specific to Ettenmoors PvMP. The enemy can be controlled by any player – either the same player controlling the surrendering character, or someone else. Participation in Rank Farming is an abuse of our game mechanics, and against our rules. …”

So to give some insight into how the rule was intended to be applied we can look at a post from (at the time community manager) Sapience. Preceding the definition above Sapience spoke very specifically about 1v1’s and community organized fights in a post in April 2013.
“It’s a topic we’ve kept an eye on, but have not responded to for a number of reasons. Primarily is that we’ve seen people report this falsely in an attempt to grief others and turn GMs into a weapon to use against other players. Tracking and proving actually exploits is not as easy as most may think. We’re also very aware that often times PvMP players enact their own ‘code of conduct’ that doesn’t match with ours.
As an example, when some servers started hosting 1v1 fights where other’s weren’t allowed to interfere the number of reports of ‘fight clubbing’ and ‘rank farming’ went through the roof. However, it really wasn’t. Should we have banned an action we didn’t intend, but that were not actually rank farming and cheating? Probably not.
But to your current question, and that thread, we are looking at ways to track those who are taking advantage of this system in ways we did not intend. Once we have that in place we will start to take a look at appropriate action to take against those players. And yes, very lengthy and possibly lifetime bans are a very real possibility.”

While I understand this was at a time when Turbine was under ownership, and we are currently SSG I think providing the LOTRO equivalent of the Federalist Papers for insight is incredibly important here. The official view while this rule was enacted was that 1v1’s, although never intended, was not a violation of CoC and was not tantamount to Rank Farming, cheating, or exploiting. Considering the direct wording of the rule, “intentional surrender of your character” would surmount to what many of us in the PvMP community view as farming, and not a 1v1. I understand that in many 1v1’s certain skills have been previously agreed to be not used as it creates an imbalance between classes, however this does not amount to “intentional surrender”.
Now, what we have seen is members of the community to disagree with this definition have been reporting players who openly engage in 1v1s for Rank Farming. Some players have even camped at the 1v1 area in an attempt to grief players who engage in 1v1’s. I should note that both of these actions are a violation of the CoC.

28. You may not restrict or inhibit any other use from using and enjoying the game or related services.
32. You may not imporper us in-game support or complaint buttons to make false reports to Standing Stone Games administrators.

Grieving players who are playing the game within the confines of the CoC, by falsifying reports or repeatedly harassing them in game and attempting to turn GMs into a weapon to use against other players is directly laid out in the CoC and I would hope that those situations are taken into account in an equal and fair manner.

So please Cordovan, I urge you to weight the information available and clarify this rule so that no one else is affected by this situation. As a community we have our differences but I can assure you we don’t want to see someone banned, and/or potentially stripped of their hard earned ranks because of a confusion of how a rule should be applied. Or worse, a player grieving others by using a GM as a weapon.

[buzo]

Agreed. These GM's are too undertrained if they are banning people for 1v1ing just because it looks like farming to them. I mean come on, resetting people's ranks who have been playing for 4-5 years just because they sit at Good Grimwood and 1v1?

Cordovan please do not delete or lock this thread, this is a serious issue as 5-6 innocent people have been banned for PLAYING PVMP.

There is even a similar issue posted just a couple months ago, from evernight https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...or-rankfarming

[Cordovan]

1v1's are considered rank farming when the people involved are rank farming. I do not know the particulars of this disciplinary action, nor is that something I can really get involved in. If you need to file an appeal, please do so through help.standingstonegames.com.

[Ringil]

I am an active member of the Arkenstone PvMP community and I was deeply troubled by these recent events. I want to ensure fair and uniform application of the CoC to all members of our community while giving some insight into this specific rule itself. Let’s rewind back to Aug. 28 2013 when the CoC was amended to provide framework and definition of (at the time) a troubling trend of rank farming.

The official definition: “The intentional surrender of your character to an enemy; resulting in a purposeful defeat and a gain of infamy or renown to increase rank. Rank farming is specific to Ettenmoors PvMP. The enemy can be controlled by any player – either the same player controlling the surrendering character, or someone else. Participation in Rank Farming is an abuse of our game mechanics, and against our rules. …”

So to give some insight into how the rule was intended to be applied we can look at a post from (at the time community manager) Sapience. Preceding the definition above Sapience spoke very specifically about 1v1’s and community organized fights in a post in April 2013.
“It’s a topic we’ve kept an eye on, but have not responded to for a number of reasons. Primarily is that we’ve seen people report this falsely in an attempt to grief others and turn GMs into a weapon to use against other players. Tracking and proving actually exploits is not as easy as most may think. We’re also very aware that often times PvMP players enact their own ‘code of conduct’ that doesn’t match with ours.
As an example, when some servers started hosting 1v1 fights where other’s weren’t allowed to interfere the number of reports of ‘fight clubbing’ and ‘rank farming’ went through the roof. However, it really wasn’t. Should we have banned an action we didn’t intend, but that were not actually rank farming and cheating? Probably not.
But to your current question, and that thread, we are looking at ways to track those who are taking advantage of this system in ways we did not intend. Once we have that in place we will start to take a look at appropriate action to take against those players. And yes, very lengthy and possibly lifetime bans are a very real possibility.”

While I understand this was at a time when Turbine was under ownership, and we are currently SSG I think providing the LOTRO equivalent of the Federalist Papers for insight is incredibly important here. The official view while this rule was enacted was that 1v1’s, although never intended, was not a violation of CoC and was not tantamount to Rank Farming, cheating, or exploiting. Considering the direct wording of the rule, “intentional surrender of your character” would surmount to what many of us in the PvMP community view as farming, and not a 1v1. I understand that in many 1v1’s certain skills have been previously agreed to be not used as it creates an imbalance between classes, however this does not amount to “intentional surrender”.
Now, what we have seen is members of the community to disagree with this definition have been reporting players who openly engage in 1v1s for Rank Farming. Some players have even camped at the 1v1 area in an attempt to grief players who engage in 1v1’s. I should note that both of these actions are a violation of the CoC.

28. You may not restrict or inhibit any other use from using and enjoying the game or related services.
32. You may not imporper us in-game support or complaint buttons to make false reports to Standing Stone Games administrators.

Grieving players who are playing the game within the confines of the CoC, by falsifying reports or repeatedly harassing them in game and attempting to turn GMs into a weapon to use against other players is directly laid out in the CoC and I would hope that those situations are taken into account in an equal and fair manner.

So please Cordovan, I urge you to weight the information available and clarify this rule so that no one else is affected by this situation. As a community we have our differences but I can assure you we don’t want to see someone banned, and/or potentially stripped of their hard earned ranks because of a confusion of how a rule should be applied. Or worse, a player grieving others by using a GM as a weapon.

Yes intentional surrender can happen when pretending in duel too. simple short answer. exactly what folks do. first of all players , community do not make any rules at all.

if you agreed with your buddies in game does not mean they will listen to you, LMAO camped 1v1 area violation????

are you alright? anyone can attack anything, there are no rules or 1v1 area, it never existed at all. LOL never was anyone banned for interrupting 1v1s , its so funny you are talking about something that does not exist officially and speaking in such tone ..

GMs did a right job

well done

cheeers =

[zaboch]

1v1's are considered rank farming when the people involved are rank farming.

Also, go to what support? They don't see the difference between someone actually rank farming and someone fighting in an arranged fight.

[Spilo]

1v1's are considered rank farming when the people involved are rank farming. I do not know the particulars of this disciplinary action, nor is that something I can really get involved in. If you need to file an appeal, please do so through help.standingstonegames.com.

So this is a possibility, except the wave of bans occurred to EVERYONE who happened to be at GG doing 1v1s, so it's not a situation of "a rank farmer that happened to be 1v1ing got banned." Everyone involved in normal combative 1v1s at a specific time were ALL banned. This includes a Rank 15 player who has no reason to farm rank!

[Moorsfighter]

1v1's are considered rank farming when the people involved are rank farming. I do not know the particulars of this disciplinary action, nor is that something I can really get involved in. If you need to file an appeal, please do so through help.standingstonegames.com.

The official stance of LOTRO was that 1v1’s were not a form of rankfarming as you can see from the above public statement. I think it’s important that you clarify such rule changes prior to enforcing them in a strict way that removes the hard work that took years to accomplish. Unlike PvE our stats and ranks are not washed away at every update but carried through the entirety of this games existence. To wipe that away because a GM was unclear about the companies stance is incredibly unprofessional.

[DRNA]

Pretty sure talking about disciplinary actions aren't going to win you any favors. You guys trade points back and forth for hours on end and when that gets boring you grief in OOC. Who are you fooling? The only thing 1v1s are good for is catching you off guard as you run back to GG from GV.

[buzo]

1v1's are considered rank farming when the people involved are rank farming. I do not know the particulars of this disciplinary action, nor is that something I can really get involved in. If you need to file an appeal, please do so through help.standingstonegames.com.

Cordovan, we came here because of an issue with support. Support itself is too undertrained you have to realize this. We've already submitted appeals just to get denied with the CoC restated, with no proof of rankfarming. You are the only person who can do something about because you have access to GM staff. Please do us all a favour and pass this thread on to staff/ administration

[Ringil]

The official stance of LOTRO was that 1v1’s were not a form of rankfarming as you can see from the above public statement. I think it’s important that you clarify such rule changes prior to enforcing them in a strict way that removes the hard work that took years to accomplish. Unlike PvE our stats and ranks are not washed away at every update but carried through the entirety of this games existence. To wipe that away because a GM was unclear about the companies stance is incredibly unprofessional.

when SSG took over some old Turbine rules might need to apply anymore too, lol'd at hard work..

anyone with commone sense will understand 1v1 can be ranking farming too

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

justice, its pretending , no actuall 1v1s, arranged fights you can easily make a deal with player who kills who repeatedly , i hope everyone gets banned for rank farming and exploiting

also these 1v1 areas are simply club zones lets see if we have increased gm presence there

please dont try to justify yourself, its too late now, akrenstone 1ve area should be checked, there were many cases in past when players arrange "duels" via x fire now dead and they simply pretend to fight while they farm each other for hours

excuse is its 1v1 area, its farming area and pathetic. They should all be killed or banned

NO FUN ALLOWED!

lul

[Urthas]

1v1's are considered rank farming when the people involved are rank farming. I do not know the particulars of this disciplinary action, nor is that something I can really get involved in. If you need to file an appeal, please do so through help.standingstonegames.com.

I do not know the particulars of this disciplinary action, nor is that something I can really get involved in.

How can you determine it was rank farming when you yourself say you do not know the particulars? You are the community manager, this is exactly the type of thing you are supposed to get involved in, just as the others in the past have done. Just as Sapience had done so and weighed in stating it was not rank farming. There's a failure and break down of communication between players and game masters, and it falls down on the community manager to bridge that divide and find out what's going on, not burying their head in the sand. From the outside looking in it seems like to me these folks are being penalized for no real reason that would make sense other than their being a rogue gm with a grudge, since it happened to only select players and not all involved.

Not only that, but these folks receive a ban, when there are blatant rank farmers with video proof reported who have no action taken against them, because they either spend quite a sum of money on the game, or possibly pay the gms themselves for all people know.

Not to mention the fact that trolls who intentionally and willfully insight arguments in these threads are banned, yet you've allowed Ringil to continue on shows your apathy to this situation as a whole.

[Agollas]

I don't know why SSG are taking this attitude towards it.

Currently there are massive lag spikes in the moors when people group up. It gets to the point where skills can't even be used.

The servers can just about keep up with people doing small group fights/1vs1s.



Does that mean if I run in to a 24 man fraid solo and just give up and jump around, that I am rank farming by intentionally surrendering my character, because there is no point fighting?

Would the whole fraid then be rank farming for killing me while my character was "surrendered"?


Pretty clearly not, but it shows that rank farming can only be loosely defined and some common sense is clearly needed on the part of the GMs.

[Kate00]

wow how many people got banned? i mean i dont care if people 1v1 and i zerg gg sometimes but dang @ cordovan saying its farming.

[maartena]

Cordovan, we came here because of an issue with support. Support itself is too undertrained you have to realize this. We've already submitted appeals just to get denied with the CoC restated, with no proof of rankfarming. You are the only person who can do something about because you have access to GM staff. Please do us all a favour and pass this thread on to staff/ administration

Reality check:

They don't have to give you proof.
You don't own your characters. They do.
They can remove you from their service at any time, for any reason they feel.
You aren't entitled to an explanation.
Bans are virtually always final.

Sounds harsh, but it is the cold hard truth.... just about all you can do at this point is just make a new account, and start over.

[Spilo]

Reality check:

They don't have to give you proof.
You don't own your characters. They do.
They can remove you from their service at any time, for any reason they feel.
You aren't entitled to an explanation.
Bans are virtually always final.

Sounds harsh, but it is the cold hard truth.... just about all you can do at this point is just make a new account, and start over.

This is all correct, but if that's the stance SSG takes, then they're presenting their product inaccurately and inconsistently, and people will take their money to another game that states and stands by their rules better. This isn't a case of morality, but on whether SSG is going to show consistency and accuracy with their stance on 1v1s, and if they aren't, then I know folks are going to take their money elsewhere. The player doesn't have to create a new account, the player can leave and find another game. In situations like these, it could be easily remedied by addressing the situation at hand instead of restating what folks are already aware of.

[Cordovan]

wow how many people got banned? i mean i dont care if people 1v1 and i zerg gg sometimes but dang @ cordovan saying its farming.

That is the opposite of what I said. What I said was that Rank Farming is Rank Farming regardless of source. 1v1 as something to do is not explicitly rank farming, but if you are rank farming during 1v1 play, you don't get a free pass just because you are in a 1v1 environment.

[Urthas]

Reality check:

They don't have to give you proof.
You don't own your characters. They do.
They can remove you from their service at any time, for any reason they feel.
You aren't entitled to an explanation.
Bans are virtually always final.

Sounds harsh, but it is the cold hard truth.... just about all you can do at this point is just make a new account, and start over.

Which is probably why folks find themselves banned over the smallest non-issues lately. It wouldn't surprise me if the folks who give the gms "training" have them hand out permabans in hopes the people will repurchase the content on new accounts, considering they've witnessed it occur dozens of times, and multiple times for certain players..

[maartena]

wow how many people got banned? i mean i dont care if people 1v1 and i zerg gg sometimes but dang @ cordovan saying its farming.

If the 1v1 came from the same IP address, it could be considered multiboxing. While multiboxing is allowed when you box on the SAME side, boxing on OPPOSITE sites could very easily be abused to farm ranks without a lot of effort.

I have no idea what happened here in any case, but just take note of my post above: They reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, for any reason, without any explanations, and without you having any rights and/or say in the matter. You don't own your account, they do, and they can do with it as they please.... and once a ban is set, it's almost impossible to get it undone.

[Cordovan]

I do not know the particulars of this disciplinary action, nor is that something I can really get involved in.

How can you determine it was rank farming when you yourself say you do not know the particulars? You are the community manager, this is exactly the type of thing you are supposed to get involved in, just as the others in the past have done. Just as Sapience had done so and weighed in stating it was not rank farming. There's a failure and break down of communication between players and game masters, and it falls down on the community manager to bridge that divide and find out what's going on, not burying their head in the sand. From the outside looking in it seems like to me these folks are being penalized for no real reason that would make sense other than their being a rogue gm with a grudge, since it happened to only select players and not all involved.

Not only that, but these folks receive a ban, when there are blatant rank farmers with video proof reported who have no action taken against them, because they either spend quite a sum of money on the game, or possibly pay the gms themselves for all people know.

Not to mention the fact that trolls who intentionally and willfully insight arguments in these threads are banned, yet you've allowed Ringil to continue on shows your apathy to this situation as a whole.

Just to be clear: I did not "determine it was rank farming". I was (I thought) pretty clear about it, that I did not know nor was explicitly commenting on the particulars of an individual appeal or incident.