Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[Phantion]

Also thinking about the new Hobbit villages that this would add: from what I can see on various maps, the villages of Gamwich, Nobottle and Tighfield seem to be found in this north-western area, as well as potentially Long Cleeve and Hardbottle more directly north of Bindbole Wood.

There is also, according to the maps I've seen (not sure of the veracity of them!) an area called the North Moors, just south of Annuminas - I wonder if that will feature!

EDIT: Some maps place Hardbottle in the south, although the wikis that I have seen say it is the north (and is the place that Lobelia, who was a Bracegirdle before being a Sackville-Baggins) came from.

Map added below, with potential locations: Tf: Tighfield, Gw: Gamwich, Hb: Hardbottle, LC: Long Cleeve, No: Nobottle. Nm: North Moors (although didn't see where they might fit, based on the current LOTRO map), with GH in the south being Grey Havens.

I think your second map here is closer to the mark. I did notice on terrainmap a road going directly west and then northwest of Little Delving, which looks primed to be another connector to the area. But we don't know what the southern extent will look like.

Both of your red circles are in the right ballpark for the northernmost extent of the zone.

To what Valather89 said, I'll say I will neither confirm nor deny per what I've discovered.

To Harvain-

Thank you, yes, that's right- I think then my issue was more with ND's quest-flow. But you're right that there are alternative routes. I guess I'd just like to see............ more alternatives in that range as both ND and Lone-Lands are very Mannish regions. I think South Farthing would be a good candidate there for Hobbits, for example, and I'd even say Northern Ered Luin or even Forlindon would be good directions to expand that range for Dwarves / Stout-Axes, Elves, and High Elves.

And yes yes, there's Orthikar and Meluinen- they gave us something in ND, I know that

I think my message here is: Greater options are grander!

The game's been pretty good if your goal is to follow the Epic. But if you're more into the RPG aspect and want to do the kinds of quests that you'd more imagine your player-character doing, it's been trouble: For the life of me, it will always feel very wrong for my High Elf to run around with apple crates for Butterbur in Bree, LOL My Hobbits and Big Folk fit more in that locale

The Eglain......... yeah, a High Elf showing up at the Forsaken Inn like the Mandalorian or stranger out of town in an old western, ummmmm.............. hilarious if you don't take it seriously

Cheers!

[Valather89]

It would feel a bit weird for this new connecting area to not be designed for low level players (around level 15), since, swift travel aside, elves and dwarves would have to traverse this zone to get to the Shire and Bree-land, where the main plot starts. It would be strange for poor travellers to suddenly find level 40 goblins near the road so soon in their adventures . Maybe with an early 2000s game design, but not in 2022.

As for a substitute for Lone-Lands, the natural progression would be a zone to the south of Bree-land (South Downs?) but it all depends on whether they're saving some southern Eriador areas for very high level content, like a hypothetical Scouring of the Shire expansion, or they're okay with leaving a few of them for players under level 50.

[auximenes]

It would feel a bit weird for this new connecting area to not be designed for low level players (around level 15), since, swift travel aside, elves and dwarves would have to traverse this zone to get to the Shire and Bree-land, where the main plot starts. It would be strange for poor travellers to suddenly find level 40 goblins near the road so soon in their adventures . Maybe with an early 2000s game design, but not in 2022.

They have in the past tucked a few locations which harbored a cluster of enemies that were higher level that the overall zone, the ruined stone buildings to the NW of Weathertop in the Lonelands for example. Perhaps the connecting area here could be higher than starter level but have lower level enemies just along the road. This would allow reasonable movement for the new characters without limiting the rest of the zone.

[Fargasia]

It's so energizing seeing well-thought out proposals that make sense for the game - well done all of you!!

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

They have in the past tucked a few locations which harbored a cluster of enemies that were higher level that the overall zone, the ruined stone buildings to the NW of Weathertop in the Lonelands for example. Perhaps the connecting area here could be higher than starter level but have lower level enemies just along the road. This would allow reasonable movement for the new characters without limiting the rest of the zone.

True - although that can only stretch so far, as with the mobs at Ost Alagos (the one near Weathertop), your character is close enough in level to them to be able to run away if you hit the zone around 20ish (things might get a bit hairy, but you can survive if you move fast enough). In this case, if the zone was made into an end game one, you'd be one shotted with significant damage to spare!

[Phantion]

True - although that can only stretch so far, as with the mobs at Ost Alagos (the one near Weathertop), your character is close enough in level to them to be able to run away if you hit the zone around 20ish (things might get a bit hairy, but you can survive if you move fast enough). In this case, if the zone was made into an end game one, you'd be one shotted with significant damage to spare!

That, and as others have said, the quests in Ered Luin actually vector you toward Bree-land. I'd even say they should add vectors in Michel Delving and Duillond and Gondamon to send players to the new area since the old vectors to Bree-land basically assume that the Shire is under-level and that the portal between Ered Luin and the Shire exists.

Now, it'll be quite a long journey for a new player to get to Bree-land from Ered Luin, which is totally awesome for us who have been around and kicking for awhile, but it might be bewildering to the new player experience. They'd get the "Gondamon to Bree-Town" quest, cross into the new zone, and be like: "What's this?"

I'd also suggest that when they introduce a new area, MoL should greatly consider making a Volume 1 interlude for each new chunk of landscape. It would be a cool way to keep things on-track for the Epic while also showing players the unique roles that would be played in them.

For example, there could be vectors from Halbarad following Book 3 and from Aragorn in Rivendell to go assist the Dunedain and Elves in the Angle or something along those lines The interlude would be an optional quest-line, of course, and you could jump to do Book 4 if you wanted to do so.

But it would be a neat tie-in to get the Angle as part of the wider arc of Volume I and make those direct connections.

Similarly, I could see an interlude between the Prologue and Book 1 of the first region, maybe themed as "A Funny Thing That Happened on the Way to Bree-Land," sort to speak, and perhaps it would involve chasing Skorgrim's forces out of Ered Luin, experienced from both Shire and Ered Luin perspectives, or something along those lines.

The distance between the Prologues and Volume 1 Book 1 have always felt somewhat disconnected to me. If you are a Hobbit or a Human, you are wondering: "Woah! Whose that undead Dwarf in Ost Baranor, and how is he in league with the Nazgul?" If you are an Elf or a Dwarf, you're wondering the same about the Angmar dude Eogan, and you're wondering about Amdir and whose that?

So, the new area between the Shire and Ered Luin would be a neat opportunity for them to start to tie those plots together. For example, perhaps Eogan runs off to join Skorgrim's forces first on the way to Ost Baranor, and perhaps some might talk about the coordinated assault on Archet and what they did to a certain ranger, and so on. Something to help tie the respective Prologues closer together before landing their fusion in Bree-land, basically. It would be a neat move for them to consider, especially since they are concerned about enhancing new player experiences.

I think if you're a new player, you need to know where you're going and why you're going there, I think, and so you could follow along. I'd also say that kind of Interlude should also include some "follow the road" quests rather than 1 vector.

A Volume 1 quest I really appreciated (*I forget the book number / chapter number) was the one where you are chasing Angmar's forces across Eriador from Evendim to Tal Bruinen in the Trollshaws. It had you actually go to specific hill-tops and "see" the enemies you are chasing in the distance or learn of their whereabouts.

So I think that also would be a good "guide-rail" questing method for new players; the Interlude would not only connect the Elf, Dwarf / Stout-Axe, and Hobbit Prologues to Book 1 (*Men and Beornings could also be vectored out there via Aragorn getting word of trouble sent from Saeradan or Langlas), it could also direct the new player to specific locations in the Shire as well along the way. For example, it could send you to Gaffer Gamgee, who could start talking about the Black Riders, and to Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, who could blurt about Frodo moving to Crickhollow, and to Farmer Maggot, who would keep the Hobbits' secret and tell you those Black Riders stormed Brandywine Bridge, and off you go to Bree-land.

Anyways: my mind's on a roll. I'm very excited for what they're up to in Eriador I also think it's a pretty good idea for them to give themselves some time to work-out what the next "End-Game Epic" storyline will be.

---

I also very much agree on the need to fill-in that Far Northern Mirkwood area and complete the Forest River. When you ride around the circle, starting at the Elf-Gate, through Beorning-lands, up through Floodfells, Misthollow, up through Elderslade and Ered Mithrin, down through Dale-lands, and back across through Eryn Lasgalen, you realize that there's this HUGE chunk of terrain that's missing, including some impressive areas atop Felegoth and that whole crescent-shaped block of terrain directly west of Dale.

They do have a problem in that there's that one Forest Maze instance you get from northwest Eryn Lasgalen: the one that sends you to slay the Taurogrim Chieftain. There's also that Queen Spider instance from Thranduil that takes place north of the largest spider area.

I'd say, for those, the solution would be to just put the instances in completely separate spaces and use the game-world versions to happen after those instances, such as looking for clues in the Spider Queen's den (*maybe the Ungoledain would be searching too), and so on. It would be neat to have a zone that connects directly to Misthollow, Floodfells, Eryn Lasgalen, Dale-lands, and Ered Mithrim especially in the Oinsbridge area.

They could even have a frozen Mirkwood area involving the Frost-Horde per the fact that those northern stretches are portrayed as frozen on the World Map. Ah, I'm enthusiastic! I'm just very excited they are in that "fill-out-the-world" mode. Here's hoping Emyn Muil will be on that list as well!

I also agree with you that there --- should --- be a pass climbing down into western Evendim from the new area. I'd really love if they'd do that!

Cheers!

[Harvain]

True - although that can only stretch so far, as with the mobs at Ost Alagos (the one near Weathertop), your character is close enough in level to them to be able to run away if you hit the zone around 20ish (things might get a bit hairy, but you can survive if you move fast enough). In this case, if the zone was made into an end game one, you'd be one shotted with significant damage to spare!

One thing that can be considered is how they would do for example: The Grey Havens.

I think we already have the way such will be done: The Minas Tirith Wedding Version for the Wedding of King Elessar and Arwen Undómiel and how the Quests are based on Character Level.

Really there wouldn't be any reasons for fighting near the Grey Havens and thinking about the Tower Hills, it likely would be the same as the nearby power of the Elves ensures a safe region which also could use this same formula of the Quests being based on Character Level.

Stuff closer to the Shire "could" have some stuff involved but I guess that would be more about how such would be dealt with. The Far Downs most notable thing about them is when they are added to the Shire by King Elessar and what would become the Westmarch with it's only known town of Undertowers. Which it's only 10 Years after this is given to the Shire when many Hobbits migrate to it.

So we're several decades away (In-Game Decades from Third Age 3019) from the area between the Tower Hills and the Shire's current Western Border being a very prominent location.



Edit: And for the Grey Havens being like the Wedding of King Elessar & Arwen. It would ensure all Accounts with Characters at Level 20 & higher could participate.

As it wouldn't be so much as LOTRO ending as heralding LOTRO has reached the End of the Third Age & start of the Fourth Age.

The Grey Havens will have to be built to include everyone.

[Phantion]

One thing that can be considered is how they would do for example: The Grey Havens.

I think we already have the way such will be done: The Minas Tirith Wedding Version for the Wedding of King Elessar and Arwen Undómiel and how the Quests are based on Character Level.

Really there wouldn't be any reasons for fighting near the Grey Havens and thinking about the Tower Hills, it likely would be the same as the nearby power of the Elves ensures a safe region which also could use this same formula of the Quests being based on Character Level.

Stuff closer to the Shire "could" have some stuff involved but I guess that would be more about how such would be dealt with. The Far Downs most notable thing about them is when they are added to the Shire by King Elessar and what would become the Westmarch with it's only known town of Undertowers. Which it's only 10 Years after this is given to the Shire when many Hobbits migrate to it.

So we're several decades away (In-Game Decades from Third Age 3019) from the area between the Tower Hills and the Shire's current Western Border being a very prominent location.



Edit: And for the Grey Havens being like the Wedding of King Elessar & Arwen. It would ensure all Accounts with Characters at Level 20 & higher could participate.

As it wouldn't be so much as LOTRO ending as heralding LOTRO has reached the End of the Third Age & start of the Fourth Age.

The Grey Havens will have to be built to include everyone.

Well, they don't have to tie it to the Fourth Age stuff with Hobbits settling it. With LOTRO's main timeline, I'd much rather have the High Elven version where Gildor Inglorion and company are settled (*before wandering around Eriador where they meet Frodo before heading up to Meluinen in ND), the Tower with the Palantir that only looks to the West, and so on. It's much cooler than an extended Michel Delving in my view. The new area should cover the Hobbity aspects well enough, I'm thinking.

As for the Grey Havens, and I know I've said this before: I think it would be far better to have Tales of Yore versions of the Havens and Forlindon and Harlindon. It would mean, of course, having them on a coordinate map separate from Celondim, etc., but I think it would be worth it. A built-up, settled Lindon dealing with the War of the Elves and Sauron in the SA would be far more interesting, I think, than a late TA version, where really the only noteworthy thing that happens is Frodo sailing West (*I agree with you that, ideally, everyone would be included with that level-wise). But I'd love it for them to actually tackle the real, substantive content of those areas, all of which happens in the distant past, and High Elven characters could even be "remembering" what they actually experienced as that would technically be before the High Elf Intro chronology-wise.

They could also "cover" important events like the coming of Glorfindel and the coming of the Istari, which would be neat instances, and Cirdan giving Narya to Gandalf. I'd much rather have that stuff in-game to really soak-in and enjoy those regions as opposed to their really bittersweet, tragic Third Age counterparts with Lindon mostly in ruins, save for Mithlond, and Frodo's final voyage...

I think it really would enhance things to give players access to those regions; SA Lindon and SA Eregion, I maintain, would be awesome additions to this game.

For TA, I think Tower Hills / Far Downs would be appropriate regions for lower-levels to further help fill-in the gaps between those zones

Cheers!

[itshuntah31]

How many rivers were in the region? Is it possible that this will be a new starter region for the long awaited River Hobbits?

[Harvain]

Well, they don't have to tie it to the Fourth Age stuff with Hobbits settling it. With LOTRO's main timeline, I'd much rather have the High Elven version where Gildor Inglorion and company are settled (*before wandering around Eriador where they meet Frodo before heading up to Meluinen in ND), the Tower with the Palantir that only looks to the West, and so on. It's much cooler than an extended Michel Delving in my view. The new area should cover the Hobbity aspects well enough, I'm thinking.

As for the Grey Havens, and I know I've said this before: I think it would be far better to have Tales of Yore versions of the Havens and Forlindon and Harlindon. It would mean, of course, having them on a coordinate map separate from Celondim, etc., but I think it would be worth it. A built-up, settled Lindon dealing with the War of the Elves and Sauron in the SA would be far more interesting, I think, than a late TA version, where really the only noteworthy thing that happens is Frodo sailing West (*I agree with you that, ideally, everyone would be included with that level-wise). But I'd love it for them to actually tackle the real, substantive content of those areas, all of which happens in the distant past, and High Elven characters could even be "remembering" what they actually experienced as that would technically be before the High Elf Intro chronology-wise.

They could also "cover" important events like the coming of Glorfindel and the coming of the Istari, which would be neat instances, and Cirdan giving Narya to Gandalf. I'd much rather have that stuff in-game to really soak-in and enjoy those regions as opposed to their really bittersweet, tragic Third Age counterparts with Lindon mostly in ruins, save for Mithlond, and Frodo's final voyage...

I think it really would enhance things to give players access to those regions; SA Lindon and SA Eregion, I maintain, would be awesome additions to this game.

For TA, I think Tower Hills / Far Downs would be appropriate regions for lower-levels to further help fill-in the gaps between those zones

Cheers!

Yeah.

What I personally would like to see?

A Grey Havens Expansion which culminated with the Final Events that would be added say 1 month to 3 Months & should be 3 Months so it's the "Main Focus" after said Expansion went Live being seeing the Ship that takes Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, many other Elves and the Hobbits Bilbo & Frodo Baggins into the West. A cutscene built exactly to what Tolkien described of how that occurs. Which basically could be say Epic Quest Volume (Number here) Book (Number here) being a single Book which is the "Based on Character Level" and allows everyone Level 20 & higher to play such since the Epic Quest is Free.

The Grey Havens Expansion itself could be a "How we got here" and cover all the Events that occurred involving the Grey Havens and allowing for a lot of Content involving: Fighting that happens during the Second Age & Third Age, Glorfindel arriving, the Istari arriving, Gandalf receiving one of the Three Elven Rings: Narya, the Ring of Fire to help rekindle the Hearts & Hopes of all, etc.

Which the Second & Third Age Versions for X Content they would cover could be built in the Mordor Besieged & Azanulbizar method.

SSG could easily have this be a huge Expansion. Personally it should be THE biggest Expansion if we got to such a point it could be added.

Let the Third Age's ending, those Sailing West and the Fourth Age starting all happen with a bang.

It's still a ways off but the SSG LOTRO Team has everything available to them to ensure that it's a huge Event.

[auximenes]

True - although that can only stretch so far, as with the mobs at Ost Alagos (the one near Weathertop), your character is close enough in level to them to be able to run away if you hit the zone around 20ish (things might get a bit hairy, but you can survive if you move fast enough). In this case, if the zone was made into an end game one, you'd be one shotted with significant damage to spare!

I wasn't thinking end-game, perhaps something no more than 50. That was the Angmar cap and seems reasonable since you could run all the way up to find level 50 enemies at launch if you so desired.

That, and as others have said, the quests in Ered Luin actually vector you toward Bree-land. I'd even say they should add vectors in Michel Delving and Duillond and Gondamon to send players to the new area since the old vectors to Bree-land basically assume that the Shire is under-level and that the portal between Ered Luin and the Shire exists.
...
I'd also say that kind of Interlude should also include some "follow the road" quests rather than 1 vector.

Yeah, I think a vector to put you on the road formerly where the port door between Ered Luin and The Shire is necessary. Then put a sequence of a few 'quests' which keep the player on the road heading east towards The Shire, maybe something involving sneaking or otherwise eluding being spotted by enemies? This would be especially relevant if the area overall was significantly higher than level 20. Maybe even include an NPC escort that would help introduce that mechanic to a new player, including a 'summoning whistle' type item so the player can get the 'quest' back on track easily if they goof it up. This NPC could be higher in level than the expected PC level, the same level as the zone so that if the player does stray too far off the road they have a chance at surviving the encounter.

[Halphast]

One thing that can be considered is how they would do for example: The Grey Havens.
...
Edit: And for the Grey Havens being like the Wedding of King Elessar & Arwen. It would ensure all Accounts with Characters at Level 20 & higher could participate.
The Grey Havens will have to be built to include everyone.

I'd find it really strange to be a first time player and have access to the Grey Havens. It's weird enough with anyone being able to go to the Wedding, honestly seems like it all should be locked behind completing at least the wastes so the Ring has been destroyed.

Might be cool if they instanced it, though. Make a landscape-grey-havens that's what you encounter when you wander the map- set during the war of the ring, and an instanced one for the departure and end of the 3rd Age. Ugh, still feels like the game's over to include that, if you ask me. But that's been discussed before.

[Valather89]

I've been swimming for a short while along the Mitheithel river and I confirm that the Angle, while awesome and haunting, did little in order to "fill" any gap. It created more! Now I want to see even all the (placeholder) forests and hills across the river (south of Harloeg). The invisible walls hurt, haha. Same with the space that separates the Angle from Eregion. I know they aren't likely to come anytime soon, but I just had to say it.