U35 Return to Carn Dum - Power Update

[kraalix]

Build 2 is a vast improvement for Burglar. Thank you! FB/DES is as it should be and I no longer run out of power in ~35s. I was able to make it through a parse without using a power pot.

DPS Brawler needs some more fine tuning. If I run my old rotation with most setup buffs being dex I run out of power in 35-40s. I CAN use more low strike buffs to build power but it comes at a far too steep cost to dps. I went from 500k average parses on live to 450k average parses on BR. I actually kind of like the feel of combat with watching power ebb and flow based on builder decisions but I HATE that it is costing me dps on a class that already struggles to be relevant in that role. I think you need to decrease the costs of skills across the board for this class. If you got the alternate route of raising the power restore on low strike buff it would leave us with some wild power swings of going from oop to full and back. Alternatively you could increase the dps of some other skills to compensate for less dex buff uses? Either way, something needs to be adjusted.

Also, as on live, Battle Fury still does nothing but give you 3 mettle. Battle flow tooltip % does not change. Skill damage tooltips do not change. Is this ever going to be fixed?

[Parasomnie]

Greetings,

I tested my Loremaster on Bullroarer again. Now the power-costs are much more balanced. The power-management is good to handle now. Skilling the -Power-costs from the skill-tree makes a difference.
Thanks for the update.

[Gunhard]

Not sure if power management should be revived. Didnt see many complaints about it in past years. It works as part of lower levels mechanic and would be fine if will stay there like mounted combat. There are enough stats, consumables and buffs/debuffs to deal with in the game even without power management. But we will see what this revamp will transform to.

[Gunhard]

Build 2 is a vast improvement for Burglar. Thank you! FB/DES is as it should be and I no longer run out of power in ~35s. I was able to make it through a parse without using a power pot.

DPS Brawler needs some more fine tuning. If I run my old rotation with most setup buffs being dex I run out of power in 35-40s.

Lol. Long forgotten feeling. Tbh it feels so old after playing other mmorps

[Marmawise]

Can whe get an update in chat how much power is used and restored by skills like morale ?

[Giseldah]

Are you aware that Base ICPR (and NCPR) is about 22% higher than the standard/normal progression at levels 131-140? Which makes it relatively more easier to maintain power at cap level than at lower levels.
That higher segment with the gap between 130-131 reminds me of the first Gundabad beta.

[Vastin]

Are you aware that Base ICPR (and NCPR) is about 22% higher than the standard/normal progression at levels 131-140? Which makes it relatively more easier to maintain power at cap level than at lower levels.
That higher segment with the gap between 130-131 reminds me of the first Gundabad beta.

The ratio of base regen / skill costs *should* be pretty even at most levels right now, though there is definitely a bonus regen curve down in the 1-20 range so that low level characters can ease into the concept of dealing with power rather than having it be significant from the get go. I'm not seeing a difference in the 131-140 range, but if you can spot specific examples I can see if something is up there.

- Vastin

[Giseldah]

Edit: nvm this stuff. unless interested in power cost vs power pool. i shall take a relook in power cost vs regen later.

The ratio of base regen / skill costs *should* be pretty even at most levels right now, though there is definitely a bonus regen curve down in the 1-20 range so that low level characters can ease into the concept of dealing with power rather than having it be significant from the get go. I'm not seeing a difference in the 131-140 range, but if you can spot specific examples I can see if something is up there.

- Vastin

I forgot the change in adjustment for 130 and higher.
Anyway, this is what I get when I compare Base Power, so only what you get as pure Power without Base Fate contribution, to the Power progression (at 10 points which is roughly equal).
The spikes are because player level Power does not have a lvl20 and lvl100 point. The extra point for Base Power at lvl20 does not improve upon player level Power.
From lvl105 on it's quite flat.



Minstrel, including Base Fate contribution:

[femgeek900]

Thanks to +applepie for helping me get access to the instance. Didn't get to test out the power changes much, but good so far on Hunter and minstrel. Hope all the details needed for roll out go well.

[Giseldah]

The ratio of base regen / skill costs *should* be pretty even at most levels right now, though there is definitely a bonus regen curve down in the 1-20 range so that low level characters can ease into the concept of dealing with power rather than having it be significant from the get go. I'm not seeing a difference in the 131-140 range, but if you can spot specific examples I can see if something is up there.

- Vastin

I was mistaken with the 131-140 range, so nvm that.

With regen we don't have spike around level 100 as with the power pool, but lvl20 is still not very nice.
From lvl75 up it's quite flat.

Btw 8/9 power cost point: for me 1 power cost point = 0.28 power point

[Tralfazz]

With regen we don't have spike around level 100 as with the power pool, but lvl20 is still not very nice.
From lvl75 up it's quite flat.

So other than being much more forgiving at the very earliest levels – which doesn't matter because no one has power problems at the very earliest levels on live – and that spike from Level 12-75 or thereabouts, power expense vs power regen is very close to the same with this new system as presently on Bullroarer compared to live. So we must ask the question:

Why?

Why is all this effort being put into this huge power revamp when the effect is going to be essentially the same? And in fact the aim appears to be to make it as close to the same as possible? If it's just to make a character's power pool scale up to huge numbers the way a character's morale pool does on live, well, I don't see the point. Why invest all this time and effort to produce roughly the same result while at the same time introducing a very large number of potential issues with individual skills and effects which are unlikely to be discovered before this enormous collection of changes goes live?

As I wrote above...
https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...t=#post8176267
...revamping power in some manner so that it is relevant in some situations is a good thing. Certainly it's a worthwhile goal; or power should be done away with entirely, there's no point in having a resource that can never become exhausted or whose management doesn't factor into any player decisions. There just doesn't seem to be any practical point as represented by the current proposal on Bullroarer, but there are very large risks involved with patching it onto the live servers even with the expected small tweaks to come between now and its injection into a live patch.

[Giseldah]

So other than being much more forgiving at the very earliest levels – which doesn't matter because no one has power problems at the very earliest levels on live

Actually, if you only look at the stat progressions then lvl20 is the hardest, because you have a relatively bad ratio for both power pool and regeneration versus power cost.
However, real power consumption is not like spending a fixed 8/9 point per second at every level. Some classes might not have many expensive skills yet in their rotation. You need to make models with taking this into account. If models show that lvl20 is very easy on consumption then the 'spikes' are justified. Perhaps they should be higher.

To put 8/9th point in some perspective - the following skills use 1 point (and many more): Wild Attack, Staff Sweep, Vexing Blow, Cutting Attack, Feint Attack.
1 Point is very cheap as the highest cost for a skill use is 10 points (for example Reform the Lines!, Share the Power - Fellowship).

[Bibblebob]

1. Perverance. Necessary to change bonuses for ranks.
2. Traceries for Press Onward. No power
3. Strength of the Earth Traceries. This must change for Power restore. Perhaps add +% damage buff or -CD

I completely agree. It looks like in Beta 3 they fixed everything with press onward but the Strength of Earth Tracery needs to be updated still. I think the tracery needs to either increase the power per tick or extend the duration of the power restore. In addition to one of those changes a reduced cooldown probably wouldn't hurt as well. drop the cooldown. Plus the passive needs to be changed to either in combat power restore or general power increase.

Additionally, they probably need to add in a tracery for Bow of the Righteousness since that is going to be a required skill going forward.

[CaerArianrhod]

The scaling of power potions like the Gundabad Celebrant Potion seems to be broken.
Now we have 50k+ power and the Gudabad Celbrant Potion is restoring max 8K (basically the same as on live now) in an 2 min CD. In some cases, not even enough for one skill.

[Gwandrael]

Today I tested my hunter on the testserver again, Even with Bow of the Righteous, now as skill with 1,x min cool down, the changes are very bad.
With this power management the hunter has no chance in Sarch Vorn to not run out of power.
It seems that the developer never heard the motto "never touch a running system"

[Rino90]

So, today i tested RK in heal. And i have a question about self power-restored. OK, you reworked Self Motivation and now its restore only morale, but power restored from Prelude of Hope is super low. Its not enough. Simple math: with 4lvl class talent its restore 600-900 (~750) power every second.
16*750 = 12.000 power
Its seems good, but in practice.... Full cast of Rousing Words costs 25.000 (its 50% of my power!). It's ridiculous! In combat my power ends less than 1 minute!

[Thomir92]

i tested out a few classes, i'll do them in order of testing

Hunter

- they seem to be good as it is on current power changes, dont think they need anything else, maybe change up burn hot bonus damage, since i've seen reports of wardens and captains hitting close to 800k dps due to many % based cooldowns, no idea if this is from mitless dummies tho, but biggest i've seen is 850k on a warden, which was not on a mitless dummy, it's getting close to ridiculous how much dps people can put out

Champion

- Second wind might need a slight buff, but overall good cooldown to have

- excisting buffs, they have a high number of good damage based cooldowns, overall they seem to outperform other dps classes on that account, i'm not the most proficient champion, i'm about 90k under the top ones on live, but from what i've heard others say, their number of % based cooldowns with mastery changes might make them a bit OP compared to other dps classes, maybe tweak them a bit, but again, not the best champ, so not the best source of knowledge, as long as their raid damage is somewhat equal to others, leave them be

Rune-Keeper

- healing, i love how their heals are now, good job on the scaling, finally we have some oh #### heals we can use, mostly talking about epic

- power cost, without some changes to LI's, which i assume was the intention with making their power cost as it is on BR3, it's hard to heal, however, with the new power traceries, i had no problem going full ham with food, so if the intention was to just make us swap out a couple of traceries, you did a good job, not really any issue after that, not including any potential power drains from instances

Guardian

- power cost, did you change anything at all? because i had no issue what so ever with power, and it more or less seemed like nothing had changed, i tried my best to waste power on the dummy, but no visible change at all, maybe up the power cost if it's meant to make a difference from live to u35, i even tried the 6man, tier 1 solo, no issue with power, even with a power drain on me

Captain

- Yellow Captain, i had issues here with power, inspire didnt help much on self restore of power, i did however not slot power traceries, but overall i dont see how that small amount will help, it seems that the yellow captains self healing is costing too much, best case either increase the power restore that we get ourself from inspire(maybe not the fellowship restore) or lower the cost of our own self heals


Overall, i think you did a good job on the power revamp, gg for that, but maybe went a bit overboard on the cost for healing skills, mainly minstrel, as i've heard some people think the power cost is too much on the big heals and the balance of power cost on some skills are ridiculous, as in ballad only cost like 500 power, this will lead to people spamming ballads, and not using all their skills in fear of running out, in a group setting, where you have multiple sources of power and power over time, it might work fine, but it's better to make every class able to go full ham solo, and rather have mechanics in instances that hamper power more than actuall skill use, note i dont mean overuse of big heals that make healing "easy"

i have not had the opportunity to test out the 3man and 6man in full groups, so most of my testing have been on the dummy without any outside sources of power restore, as i think solo play should be "easy" and not too punishing, but group content however should be a challange and test the player in their knowledge of their class

[eliadon]

Tested power on champion primarily in the context of pvp where you regularly need to use supplemental skills outside of the typical rotation. It's not in a good state and taxing to be barely self sufficient only for short duration. Using my fully geared champion with food (which is its own problem at 10min duration and removal on defeat), power pots, and off-cooldown use of second wind. Even with ample downtime I would quickly be left at zero and unable to maintain power compared to other dps classes. This deficit is amplified the moment debuffs are introduced (it costs power to keep them in check and they cannot be specifically removed in many situations). The current form of second wind doesn't feel good to use. It's not a standard champion skill anymore and requires trait investment. It consumes full fervour and disrupts the rotational flow greatly compared to the other dps class power mechanics introduced.

Easy implementation solution:
Placing a small power restore on Swift Strike/Swift Blade (similar to subtle stab) would be a good baseline for being self-sufficient in power across all three lines in both pve/pvp.
Second wind could act as an active skill used to combat external mechanics (power drains, debuffs, low Swift Strike use)

Larger scope changes.
1. Second wind would benefit from being made into a base line skill - it disproportionally affects lines and builds having it be a mandatory blue trait
2. The fervour consumption should be removed but the power increase per fervour should remain. This would accomplish rewarding thoughtful use during appropriate rotational windows to counter external mechanics without directly punishing rotations and combat feel as it does now at the highest level.

[Strider5548]

Champion
- excisting buffs, they have a high number of good damage based cooldowns, overall they seem to outperform other dps classes on that account, i'm not the most proficient champion, i'm about 90k under the top ones on live, but from what i've heard others say, their number of % based cooldowns with mastery changes might make them a bit OP compared to other dps classes, maybe tweak them a bit, but again, not the best champ, so not the best source of knowledge, as long as their raid damage is somewhat equal to others, leave them be

Champs aren't outperforming other DPS classes on the latest BR, cappies/minis/wardens/burgs all putting out significantly higher parses than champs (on dummy). You are right that champs have a large # of self-buffs and they do benefit more from mastery changes than some other classes, but live vs. beta for champ DPS is surprisingly similar, whereas other classes, even non-dps ones, are seeing some massive jumps in DPS output.

There's a lot of inconsistency between how certain class/lines perform on dummy vs in raid which also further complicates things, but long story short I think it's time for a champ to get the mini/warden treatment

EDIT: Also agreed that second wind needs a second look. I think there are a few ways to approach it but I like the idea of making SS/SB return some power to help sustain and maintain second wind as an infrequent cash out when you are finally OOP.

[zipfile]

In light of recent changes to power, can we get a rework of Fellowship Manoeuvers?

That bit of extra coordination between people felt rewarding over a decade ago...

[Elmagor]

In light of recent changes to power, can we get a rework of Fellowship Manoeuvers?

That bit of extra coordination between people felt rewarding over a decade ago...

Buff them and one-shot poor Draigoch

[zipfile]

Buff them and one-shot poor Draigoch

Not relevant content unless you're 75 capped.

[BotLike]

Champion- excisting buffs, they have a high number of good damage based cooldowns, overall they seem to outperform other dps classes on that account, i'm not the most proficient champion, i'm about 90k under the top ones on live, but from what i've heard others say, their number of % based cooldowns with mastery changes might make them a bit OP compared to other dps classes, maybe tweak them a bit, but again, not the best champ, so not the best source of knowledge, as long as their raid damage is somewhat equal to others, leave them be

Champ a bit OP , ok , i always suspected i played a different game than some forum posters here but now it's confirmed.