Rask, about the Knowledge of the Lore-Master changes

[Ryzes]

Like Rask said, he's trying to offer a secondary use for something that he (and me and others) don't use much of. No need for another skill, no need to revert it back. It's natural that when a LM inspects a mob, he figures out a tactic, hence the debuf. I love it!!

Remember, we STILL want this skill to be useable every 1 minute, in order for us to gather info on multiple mobs and especially on NEW mobs that we will eventually see, as originally intended. Long cooldown would ruin this original function. Oh, make sure this stays as a non-aggro skill too.

I'm sure Rask will figure out a solution for this secondary function in drama mode.

[brasswire12]

Frankly, it was an oversight. I thought the resist debuff would be a nice little boost to a skill I personally don't use a lot. I didn't think of the bosses which start out in drama (making the skill unusable in those circumstances). But that's what beta is for!

I'm undecided how I will proceed, but I'm actively investigating different options.

I'm glad you're looking into it Rask, and I'm happy that you're trying to give nice little boosts to under-used skills. We players really appreciate do appreciate stuff like that.

But I guess what's tough to understand, and what makes it tough to offer ideas for solutions, is why it was changed to be OOC-only in the first place? Understanding that, we can potentially offer some ideas on how it could be modified. Is it just because the added little resistance debuff would be too potent if it were used repeatedly? Or is the intention that this skill should only be usable at the start of a fight? Or only once per fight but not necessarily at the start? Or is the reason something else?

[Comma44]

I thought the resist debuff would be a nice little boost to a skill I personally don't use a lot.

Exactly.... honestly who uses this skill? I could probably count it on my fingers. It doesn't make/break new boss fights. Most of the information that you learn from the scan, you can figure out from engaging the boss. You can immediately figure out if he's CC immune, what kind of damage he hits you for, and after a few fights with him you can usually tell which damage type is best... especially since there's a basic undead = westernesse, orcs = beleriand, and so on. If anything this skill has been buffed with the resist debuff. It's funny when I was reading the patch notes this morning I figured that of all the crazy awesome changes that are happening for LMs people would be complaining about this, sure enough log on to the forums tonight and there's already 3 pages worth.... just be happy that we got some awesome buffs and skills. Complaining about a skill that I bet half the loremasters in the game dont even have on their bars is ridiculous.

[moebius92]

I'm glad you're looking into it Rask, and I'm happy that you're trying to give nice little boosts to under-used skills. We players really appreciate do appreciate stuff like that.

But I guess what's tough to understand, and what makes it tough to offer ideas for solutions, is why it was changed to be OOC-only in the first place? Understanding that, we can potentially offer some ideas on how it could be modified. Is it just because the added little resistance debuff would be too potent if it were used repeatedly? Or is the intention that this skill should only be usable at the start of a fight? Or only once per fight but not necessarily at the start? Or is the reason something else?

It's also hard to tell without knowing what sort of functionality is around to play with. I mean, the obvious thing is, make it so that the skill has a different behavior depending on whether you do use it in combat or out of combat. But I don't think we have any skills like that, and in fact the closest equivalents I can think of are skills that are only usable out of combat (like our rez) and skills that are only usable in combat (like warden masteries). (Now if you could make a skill that switches between an OOC and IC version... well, that'd basically be a skill that has a different behavior depending on whether you're in combat or out of combat.)

Other options are, as mentioned by others, but a debuff on any mob that's been KotLM that lasts until combat ends, and makes it immune to KotLM. The behavior is slightly different, you get one -resist per mob, at some point in combat. Potentially. Again, not sure if this is easily possible - mostly you can make things resistant to combat states or damage types, but I'm not sure about particular skills.

Another option is have the skill apply an effect to us that prevents the skill from being used, and wears off after being out of combat for several seconds. We have effects which do the wears off after being out of combat for several seconds, and we have effects which gate skills, but I don't know if we have effects which prevent skills (well, there is the eagle's sacrifice prevention thing, but I don't think it prevents the skill from firing, just from working.)

And then there's the just make the cooldown longer, which is doable, but is kind of the brute force approach to solving it.

[Smokey050]

Aside from the OOC requirement, it seems a little weird that a skill whose primary function is to determine a mob's resistances also alters that mob's resistances briefly. Usually when you're measuring something, you try not to change what it is you're measuring (quantum physicists notwithstanding).

This is what i was thinking about as well, does the debuff cause a false reading on a boss now? or does the debuff come after the Data is returned to you. Not that the resist info is massive thing but at the same time I would like to get accurate information. Also does using the skill put a MOB in combat now?

[Smokey050]

Exactly.... honestly who uses this skill? I could probably count it on my fingers. It doesn't make/break new boss fights. Most of the information that you learn from the scan, you can figure out from engaging the boss. You can immediately figure out if he's CC immune, what kind of damage he hits you for, and after a few fights with him you can usually tell which damage type is best... especially since there's a basic undead = westernesse, orcs = beleriand, and so on. If anything this skill has been buffed with the resist debuff. It's funny when I was reading the patch notes this morning I figured that of all the crazy awesome changes that are happening for LMs people would be complaining about this, sure enough log on to the forums tonight and there's already 3 pages worth.... just be happy that we got some awesome buffs and skills. Complaining about a skill that I bet half the loremasters in the game dont even have on their bars is ridiculous.

On normals Mob's and in generally well known and old content it really not a useful skill in those situations.

However I'm actually one that uses the skill (or asks the LM in group to use it) as much as i can especially on a Raid boss or any boss in general. It's far from useless in it's current state. Knowing what type of damage to bring to a fight can make a fight go a lot smoother as well as the fact you can also check to see if you debuffs are making an impact. IE Tar, Ancient craft etc...

I always wondered why Lore-master's would never give us a run down when running new boss fights and I'd always have to ask a LM to use it when I'm tanking new content.

[Digero]

Rask, while you're thinking about improvements to KotLM... It'd be nice if there were an easy way for LMs to share the results of KotLM with the rest of their group.

For example, it could render the results as plain text, compact enough to fit in a single chat message to the fellowship. Maybe when you use the skill, it puts the text in the chat box for the LM to copy/paste (though in my anecdotal experience, many people don't know how to copy from the chat box). You could also just put a copy button on the results window that sets the clipboard contents to the result as text.

Perhaps another option is to create a chat link (like you get from ctrl+click for items) using a button on the results window. The chat link would let other people see the results... maybe when they click the link, it opens the same KotLM window that the LM sees.

[Mael5trom]

Frankly, it was an oversight. I thought the resist debuff would be a nice little boost to a skill I personally don't use a lot. I didn't think of the bosses which start out in drama (making the skill unusable in those circumstances). But that's what beta is for!

I'm undecided how I will proceed, but I'm actively investigating different options.

Thanks for owning it Seriously though, nice job on the MotLM and I'm sure there is a good solution. I like either the 2nd debuff that prevent its use again (preserving it's 1m CD) or having the in-combat effects be different from the OOC effects.

I always wondered why Lore-master's would never give us a run down when running new boss fights and I'd always have to ask a LM to use it when I'm tanking new content.

Two reasons come to mind for me, really - the information up to this point has been fairly bland, most bosses tend to be remarkable across the board, and there is nothing that really says how much difference there is between the different categories. And second, LMs have historically had fairly little choice in what damage they use (fire/light except for AA damage) and with legacies damage choices also locked down a little more than they used to be back in SoA when some classes used to carry a weapon or two for each type, so it may seem rather pointless in comparison.

That being said, it's still something I try to use when first learning a boss fight as something we can optimize either that trip or on a later one.

[LagunaD]

I would like to see it usable in combat. Just lengthen the c/d to whatever is considered reasonable, given that the debuff could then be reapplied. I can't imagine 5 minutes would too short, and the duration could be shortened too if it can be reapplied. It's only a 2% resist debuff, after all...

In-combat use (say, even with a 5 min c/d and 15s duration) would make the skill much more relevant, since you could then save it and use your superior LM knowledge at a critical moment when a resist might be catastrophic. The fun factor seems a lot higher to me than the OOC alternative.

[Presto]

I like the idea of only having it be usable if the target is above 90% morale. For the most part, I think that will keep its intended effect. But I do hope the debuff applies before it shows you the resistance levels.

For everything else, there's [item]Wildlife of Middle-earth[/item].

[Raskolnikov]

Assuming my changes pass QA verification and no other issues are discovered during beta testing, this is fixed.

• When you use "Knowledge of the Lore-master" out-of-combat, it will open the analyze-window and place the resistance debuff on your target.
• When you use "Knowledge of the Lore-master" in-combat, it will open the analyze-window but will not place the resistance debuff on your target.

[Robeauch]

• When you use "Knowledge of the Lore-master" out-of-combat, it will open the analyze-window and place the resistance debuff on your target.
• When you use "Knowledge of the Lore-master" in-combat, it will open the analyze-window but will not place the resistance debuff on your target.

Thanks Rask!

I still think it's a bit less than ideal ... It would be nice to have a way to put the new debuff on bosses that start in drama mode. But at least we can still scan those bosses. I can live with that.

[Belaeren]

Assuming my changes pass QA verification and no other issues are discovered during beta testing, this is fixed.

• When you use "Knowledge of the Lore-master" out-of-combat, it will open the analyze-window and place the resistance debuff on your target.
• When you use "Knowledge of the Lore-master" in-combat, it will open the analyze-window but will not place the resistance debuff on your target.

Rask, thanks for the quick response here! This is better than the original proposal. However, how long will the debuff last? Because if we can only apply the resistance debuff prior to starting combat, and it only lasts a few seconds, then it will essentially be useless on raid bosses requiring a few minutes to kill.

[rsparrowk]

Rask, thanks for the quick response here! This is better than the original proposal. However, how long will the debuff last? Because if we can only apply the resistance debuff prior to starting combat, and it only lasts a few seconds, then it will essentially be useless on raid bosses requiring a few minutes to kill.

I can't check til I get home from work, but I seem to remember last night it saying the debuff was 60 seconds.

[JTollers]

It's 60s, but if you cannot use on drama mode, then how long it is doesn't help its application of a debuff.

[findorin-gilrain]

Thanks Rask!

I still think it's a bit less than ideal ... It would be nice to have a way to put the new debuff on bosses that start in drama mode. But at least we can still scan those bosses. I can live with that.

It seems strange to say you can live with it as if it is some sort of minor nerf - when in actual fact the skill will act exactly the same now on "in drama mode" bosses as it did before. So Raid bosses - the hardest fights in the game - still remain the same but for every other fight the LM can bring a little more fun to the party.

No complaints here!

[BIZL]

Perhaps I'm missing it but why would making the debuff work in combat be an unballancing thing? Is the resistance debuff that significant? I would rather see the cooldown increased to 2 or 3 mins and see it usable in combat. I think it would add an interesting element to fights where certain times, resists, can make a fight go south fast.

[Galahadur]

Assuming my changes pass QA verification and no other issues are discovered during beta testing, this is fixed.

• When you use "Knowledge of the Lore-master" out-of-combat, it will open the analyze-window and place the resistance debuff on your target.
• When you use "Knowledge of the Lore-master" in-combat, it will open the analyze-window but will not place the resistance debuff on your target.

Thanks Rask, you are officially my favorite Dev

[Analog-Man]

Sounds good to me. Just make sure the readings are taken on the target BEFORE the debuf is applied so as to get an accurate reading.

[Banaticus]

Most of our debuffs pull any mobs they hit. Will this new debuff similarly pull any mob that we use KotLm on?

[Raskolnikov]

Most of our debuffs pull any mobs they hit. Will this new debuff similarly pull any mob that we use KotLm on?

No, it doesn't.

[Lebenedh]

Great stuff, Rask - thank you!

I nominate Raskolnikov for the title 'Dev of Great Merit'!

[Cubkyle]

I didn't read through this whole thread, so I apologize in advance if this has been said before, but I couldn't resist making a sarcastic post in this instance, so here goes.

It doesn't matter that we won't be able to use Knowledge of the Lore-master on drama-mode bosses any longer, because they always have the same boring stats anyway post-Moria. Across the board even weaknesses to every damage type with across the board even resistances. And immunity to roots and dazes, with the super rare immunity to conjunctions thrown in every 40th boss.

/end sarcastic post which is a stab at how unoriginal and boring the boss stats are

[EtherEel]

• When you use "Knowledge of the Lore-master" out-of-combat, it will open the analyze-window and place the resistance debuff on your target.
• When you use "Knowledge of the Lore-master" in-combat, it will open the analyze-window but will not place the resistance debuff on your target.

This sounds great to me... And I hate everything.
So I guess I'll have to add Comrade Rask to my *People I Don't Hate* list. Well, that makes one person...

[EtherEel]

It doesn't matter that we won't be able to use Knowledge of the Lore-master on drama-mode bosses any longer, because they always have the same boring stats anyway post-Moria. Across the board even weaknesses to every damage type with across the board even resistances. And immunity to roots and dazes, with the super rare immunity to conjunctions thrown in every 40th boss.

Yes.... but you would not have known this had you not used the skill to check -- just to make sure.