Feedback

[XloranX]

Ok. Lets try it this way.

I have a question for Turbine. What feedback do you want from your playerbase?

[Dotlbeme]

I like to crank the gain, get a little distortion going then stick the treble pickup square into one of the speakers. With a *circular motion* (tm 1973 Frank Zappa), you get the best feedback....

[or_bill68]

You already have had 2 threads (that I know of) closed, and yet you're posting another one on the same subject?

[XloranX]

You already have had 2 threads (that I know of) closed, and yet you're posting another one on the same subject?

Ah, but my previous feedback post I discussed something that I shouldn't have and wasn't directly related to the question I wanted answered. So I reposted sans the infraction in an attempt to get the question answered. To my knowledge, asking this particular question isn't against forum rules. So I await any response. Talk to us Turbine.

[Sapience]

Ok. Lets try it this way.

I have a question for Turbine. What feedback do you want from your playerbase?

The question is less what feedback do we want, than how are you choosing to word it.

Feedback we can use is always desired, but often times players choose to word their feedback in the form of insults, attacks, false accusations, and to be very honest,at times, rants.

These things aren't feedback. Feedback can be acted on. It contains details, facts, and examples, and a considered explanation of what is happening when and how. It's also placed in the proper place where the devs or support or whomever the feedback is aimed it can see it. Not every person reads ever forum. So posting raid feedback in the general forum (an example I use because I just moved a bunch of raid 'feedback' to the proper forum) is a lot of wasted words because that's not where the dev responsible is going to look.


Examples:

Not feedback, will probably get you an infraction and almost certainly get the thread locked...

"Turbine fire your stupid devs and hire ones that know something. You idiots"

Profanity, of any kind. (especially as it is also a violationof the community guidelines)

Actually, no probably there. 100% guarantee.

Feedback
"Turbine there's an issue with this raid (insert name here) and the drops. I've run this raid X times and each time at stage Y thing Z has happened. is this intended or not? If it's intentional it isn't very fun and feels too random and is very frustrating."


I'll give you examples of phrases and types of posts that also trigger the "probably won't answer" response.

Will you ever...
You have never...
FIX IT!(in fact anything in all caps)
Conspiracy theories of all stripes and kinds.
Stating you personally represent the majority opinion.
Opening yet another thread about a topic that has been addressed multiple times.
And again... Profanity, of any kind.

[Fredelas]

I wonder if it would be possible to avoid using the term "feedback" in the future. A comment or suggestion doesn't really become feedback until it has an observable effect on the system, either to maintain or to change the system's state.

Then again, maybe this definition is too technical and doesn't apply to online communities. What does everyone else think?

[RJFerret]

A great example would be posts in the Suggestions section of the forum, most of those are productive threads.

Another great example would be most of the replies in the devs' threads soliciting input in various class forums.

Examples of what not to do would be many threads in the General forum. If it's being posted there, it's being posted more for attention than for communication in my experience.

Also, very nice/useful reply Sapience, thank you for that (on all behalf of all of us)! :-)

[Sapience]

Examples of what not to do would be many threads in the General forum. If it's being posted there, it's being posted more for attention than for communication in my experience.

As i've suggested many times, if you're posting in the general forums ask yourself if you're seeking attention or a solution. Usually if it's attention you're after you can almost always bet you're going to get the wrong kind.

Not to say there aren't topics that just don't fit anywhere else and should be posted in the general forums, but honestly there are raid, account support, tech support, and other forums. If you're posting that in the general forums, you're seeking attention.

[MTminas]

I don't know, maybe we need some kind of "answered topics/suggestions" list
These forums are quite big, so are the suggestions, but indeed many are repeated, the suggestion above might help, however making such a thing will take quite some effort....

Ex

[Dotlbeme]

To echo what Ricky just said, many threads find a way to the General Forum because their specific thread counterparts DID NOT get the attention or traction in a more appropriate setting. Initiators might think (erroneously) their particular issue is so important, why not share with everyone? Or more people peruse General so lets go for the audience (sorta like what? SPAM!).

[swt46]

An item to mention.

Feedback is not just listening to those that complain, but the player base as a whole. This includes comments on the forums, data collection of actual useage and other means. There are many players that are generally pleased with U10. Often when those people raise their opinions, its the complainers and ranters who don't want and can't accept "feedback".
".

[RKL]

Turbine gets all the feedback they want/need from us, I believe. There is no shortage of it. The forums are mostly used by us posters (non-Turbine personnel) as a vehicle for self expression. (to put it politely) The ulterior motives of all of us to express ourselves in the ways that we do are open to debate, although no one ever seems to (seriously) look at that aspect. Just enjoy the forums for whatever reasons you choose. (or not)

[NukeTheLag]

As i've suggested many times, if you're posting in the general forums ask yourself if you're seeking attention or a solution. Usually if it's attention you're after you can almost always bet you're going to get the wrong kind.

Not to say there aren't topics that just don't fit anywhere else and should be posted in the general forums, but honestly there are raid, account support, tech support, and other forums. If you're posting that in the general forums, you're seeking attention.

Sometimes it is difficult to know where to post. For a recent example, take the numerous threads about FA drops in T1 raids. The topic is related to raids obviously, but it's not specifically about raid strat, a bugged mechanic in a raid etc. While it is plausibly related to raiding, it is just as plausibly related to loot distribution generally, character progession, etc. It is clearly a variant of the earlier issue this year with horse lord drops and those were expressly made not to be raid related. So it is not entirely clear whether this issue belongs exclusively in the raid section, the general section or maybe elsewhere.

Also, one thread which fully discusses a topic would seem preferable to multiple threads on the same topic. So if there is a productive dialogue, albeit in the "wrong" forum, that would be more productive then 8 different threads spread all over the place even though some are in the "right" forum. At a minimum, one topic would cut down on the situation where the devs feel that the question has been answered but the forum poster does not. When topics keep getting moved and diluted it is inevitable that this is going to occur.

Too often, it seems like any time a head of steam gets built up on a topic, the forum gets moved/closed. This leaves the impression that Turbine is trying to bury any dissenting voices. That may not be the intent, but it is the impression that many are left with. In fact it seems like one of the fastest ways to get a thread moved to an obscure forum or end up on the wrong end of the arbitrary and capricious CoC is to put up a thread that links to all of the other threads on a given topic in an attempt to provide some coherency to the forums.

[Sapience]

Sometimes it is difficult to know where to post. For a recent example, take the numerous threads about FA drops in T1 raids. The topic is related to raids obviously, but it's not specifically about raid strat, a bugged mechanic in a raid etc. While it is plausibly related to raiding, it is just as plausibly related to loot distribution generally, character progession, etc. It is clearly a variant of the earlier issue this year with horse lord drops and those were expressly made not to be raid related. So it is not entirely clear whether this issue belongs exclusively in the raid section, the general section or maybe elsewhere.

Good example of why some threads are appropriate for the general forums. There is one in the general forums exactly on this topic.

Also, one thread which fully discusses a topic would seem preferable to multiple threads on the same topic. So if there is a productive dialogue, albeit in the "wrong" forum, that would be more productive then 8 different threads spread all over the place even though some are in the "right" forum. At a minimum, one topic would cut down on the situation where the devs feel that the question has been answered but the forum poster does not. When topics keep getting moved and diluted it is inevitable that this is going to occur.

If it is truly productive dialogue, then the fact that it's moved to the correct forum should have 0 impact (especially as an expiring redirect link is left in the original location to allow players to find the moved thread for a time after it is moved). If however, the only goal was attention, then yes the thread usually dies right out proving that the actual hope wasn't to find a solution, just attention seeking.

Too often, it seems like any time a head of steam gets built up on a topic, the forum gets moved/closed. This leaves the impression that Turbine is trying to bury any dissenting voices. That may not be the intent, but it is the impression that many are left with. In fact it seems like one of the fastest ways to get a thread moved to an obscure forum or end up on the wrong end of the arbitrary and capricious CoC is to put up a thread that links to all of the other threads on a given topic in an attempt to provide some coherency to the forums.

Often times players see the title and see locked and feel the way you describe. What they often miss is the pages of posts where there is little more than name calling, insulting posts, or just two people arguing back and forth. One thing we use as an example and metric in measuring thread importance is the number of posts PER PERSON. if there are 100 posts in a thread and 50 are from one or two people... it's probably not a 'feedback' thread but a clear cut argument between a small number of players. Or if the thread reaches a point where there are are 100 posts and 20 have gathered infractions and or been removed due to violations, then again the question becomes, is this a healthy topic with a head of steam, or has it devolved into something less useful?

A good example would be a recent spate of threads that were locked, all more or less mocking players for their opinions. There were a large number of them. All clearly attempts at trolling. All, as they violated the community guidelines, were locked. Someone complained that the moderation team was simply locking threads to oppress the free speech of players. Hardly, and a half seconds thought would have shown the clear and obvious reason why they were closed.

It seems, from our side, that there is a group of individuals who wish to push as hard as they can against the Community Guidelines to force an infraction, thread closure, or other moderation action so they can claim any number of wrongs were committed. Perhaps it's time we revert to the old methods of posting clear warnings in forums that the guidelines will be enforced and remind players to read them again as they will be held to them?

[Cindir]

As i've suggested many times, if you're posting in the general forums ask yourself if you're seeking attention or a solution. Usually if it's attention you're after you can almost always bet you're going to get the wrong kind.

Not to say there aren't topics that just don't fit anywhere else and should be posted in the general forums, but honestly there are raid, account support, tech support, and other forums. If you're posting that in the general forums, you're seeking attention.

I have no doubt what you say it true about people wanting attention, but:

Does all feedback need to be in the form of giving a solution? If players are very unhappy with a change and want to post why and their thoughts on it - maybe this is valuable even if they aren't proposing a solution.

Players post in the forums often because they want their post to be read. They know few players will read, or respond, to a post in the Raid subforum - because few players read these forums. Is it a bad thing for players to want to post in an active forum where others can read their post and respond? I guess players want to communicate with others and hear others views on what they post, whereas Turbine wants ? posts in the correct forums even if this prevents player inter-communication.

Is it a bad thing that players want to post and discuss topics in the General forums? This is the only forum they know will be read by many others.

[Fredelas]

It seems, from our side, that there is a group of individuals who wish to push as hard as they can against the Community Guidelines to force an infraction, thread closure, or other moderation action so they can claim any number of wrongs were committed. Perhaps it's time we revert to the old methods of posting clear warnings in forums that the guidelines will be enforced and remind players to read them again as they will be held to them?

I'm honestly not sure that prominent warnings would have any effect. Speaking only for myself (as someone who can be prone to occasional pushing), I didn't learn this lesson until I had already crossed the line on a particular topic. I faced the appropriate consequences, learned exactly where the line was, and hopefully improved as a result.

At worst, prominent warnings (especially if they sound ominous) might have a chilling effect on the overwhelming majority of community members who are already conscientious in their posting. The last thing a community needs is for any of its friendly and helpful members to be accidentally scared off.

[Sapience]

I'm honestly not sure that prominent warnings would have any effect. Speaking only for myself (as someone who can be prone to occasional pushing), I didn't learn this lesson until I had already crossed the line on a particular topic.

At worst, prominent warnings (especially if they sound ominous) might have a chilling effect on the overwhelming majority of community members who are already conscientious in their posting. The last thing a community needs is for any of its friendly and helpful members to be accidentally scared off.

This is why we stopped using them. Though they were ever really put into PvMP forums when they would go completely off the rails.

That said, everyone SHOULD have read the community guidelines and be aware that they are held to them. Even if they haven't read them. We assume, and expect, that everyone has and make our decisions accordingly.

[Sapience]

Players post in the forums often because they want their post to be read. They know few players will read, or respond, to a post in the Raid subforum - because few players read these forums. Is it a bad thing for players to want to post in an active forum where others can read their post and respond? I guess players want to communicate with others and hear others views on what they post, whereas Turbine wants ? posts in the correct forums even if this prevents player inter-communication.

Is it a bad thing that players want to post and discuss topics in the General forums? This is the only forum they know will be read by many others.

What you've just described is entirely attention seeking behavior. Let me flip it slightly. Perhaps the issue the player wants to discuss is raids, and thus will only be of any real interest to raiders and the only individuals who likely can have a reasonable discussion on the topic are fellow raiders.

Posting it in general is going to get you the RP players, Cosmetic fans, players who maybe feel raiders are little more than complainers, etc. In other words, exactly the people who wouldn't look in the raid forums in the first place. But other raiders would (or should).

So what's gained by knowingly posting to an audience that is likely to be disinterested or agressive towards you? Conflict? A lot of the wrong kind of attention? Troll postings? Flame postings? But, posting in the correct forums means you're asking that same question, to a group that shares your interest and maybe your concern and possibly might have some insights that can help. All sans the potential conflict.

Which is the better solution for a healthy, meaningful and reasonable discussion on a topic between players?

Perhaps understanding that what you wish to discuss only appeals to a small group is the first step in having a worthwhile conversation with that group instead of one that goes quickly off the rails and the community team and moderators have to step in and clean up or close? Which obviously makes things that much worse.

[cossieuk]

Would it be at all possible to post the reasons for closing a thread so that people know why the decision was taken. Often a thread is closed but it is not always clear as to why, this can happen cause posts are removed making it appear that there are no issue with the thread but there were it is just they have been zapped into oblivion

[Fredelas]

Would it be at all possible to post the reasons for closing a thread so that people know why the decision was taken. Often a thread is closed but it is not always clear as to why, this can happen cause posts are removed making it appear that there are no issue with the thread but there were it is just they have been zapped into oblivion

I agree that this would be tremendously helpful! The moderation team is usually good at doing this, but sometimes closed threads slip through the cracks.

Sometimes the reason can be obvious at the moment it happens; for example, if there are five identically themed threads posted within five minutes. However, if I only come across that closed thread eight hours later, I might not understand why an otherwise well-intentioned topic has been shut down.

[RKL]

Closing a thread is probably very easy and only takes seconds. How much work is involved in merging one thread into another? No need for a long answer, if you choose to respond. Just a general average time estimate would suffice.

[Sapience]

Would it be at all possible to post the reasons for closing a thread so that people know why the decision was taken. Often a thread is closed but it is not always clear as to why, this can happen cause posts are removed making it appear that there are no issue with the thread but there were it is just they have been zapped into oblivion

I can certainly see to it that everyone makes a better effort to do so. Though if a whole thread is nuked (deleted, moved to a holding area, whatever) that won't happen. Any thread that far gone or that far out of bounds is just going to be blown away.

That said, if we're closing it and letting it stand (not deleting it), it should have some sort of post (or be so obvious why it's being closed that a post would be redundant - for example a new thread that starts with "Since you closed my other one" should be self evident). I can say that often times a thread has required so much attention, clean up, and moderator and CM time that it simply stops being a worthwhile thread and it gets closed without comment because WE know it was a train wreck, but yes it might not be obvious to others.

[Runesi_EU]

I know you have mentioned that Turbine are looking at revamping these forums, I'm very much looking forward to that. I think some of the issues with people just posting in general here is to do with the sheer volume of seperate forums we have. There are a huge amount of different forum categories here to wade through!

[DolorousBob]

Have you ever considered reacting to multiple threads of the same topic with a thread of your (dev) making in the appropriate section. Many of the more established posters on the forum check the dev tracker and if they see a thread opened for the express intent of giving feedback, with clear cut questions (like some of the BR ones) you'll actually receive a good feedback.
As an example all those threads about the FA drop change/ loot changes in general (there were enough of those when U9/10 went live and there are more than enough again now):

Open a thread asking for the specific problem (Why is this a problem?).

Give Options (*RNG rates seem to be bugged*,*the drop rates/drop mechanism does not give incentive to buy and run the raid/raids in general*, *the effort /reward-ratio is unbalanced*).

Ask for solutions (there are many great suggestions to be had from the players - see the few suggestion threads in the class forums inviting input for the revamps).

Perhaps the issue the player wants to discuss is raids, and thus will only be of any real interest to raiders and the only individuals who likely can have a reasonable discussion on the topic are fellow raiders.

Posting it in general is going to get you the RP players, Cosmetic fans, players who maybe feel raiders are little more than complainers, etc. In other words, exactly the people who wouldn't look in the raid forums in the first place. But other raiders would (or should).

So what's gained by knowingly posting to an audience that is likely to be disinterested or agressive towards you? Conflict? A lot of the wrong kind of attention? Troll postings? Flame postings? But, posting in the correct forums means you're asking that same question, to a group that shares your interest and maybe your concern and possibly might have some insights that can help. All sans the potential conflict.

This is kind of one sided. Posting in the general forum where players of other play styles read about the problem gives them the option to voice their opinion, too. It's a point of politeness actually to consider everyone's opinion if they like to chime in.
I agree that it incites conflict more often but players of different play styles have to play together and if a change in one section (rewards for instances/raids; general difficulty of the game; on landscape group areas or all solo) affects more than just one play style (raiders, casuals, RP'ers, soloers, cosmeticists (lol)) it is only fair to invite their opinions as well, even if it increases chances of conflict and out-of-bounds-arguments.

Your argument works perfectly well for things like technical issues or in-raid-mechanics but not with issues possibly touching more than just a secluded group. And to be honest i haven't seen any post about how to tackle a specific boss in a raid in the general discussions, those topics are already being discussed in the appropriate forums.

[Exion_Blade]

What you've just described is entirely attention seeking behavior. Let me flip it slightly. Perhaps the issue the player wants to discuss is raids, and thus will only be of any real interest to raiders and the only individuals who likely can have a reasonable discussion on the topic are fellow raiders.

Posting it in general is going to get you the RP players, Cosmetic fans, players who maybe feel raiders are little more than complainers, etc. In other words, exactly the people who wouldn't look in the raid forums in the first place. But other raiders would (or should).

So what's gained by knowingly posting to an audience that is likely to be disinterested or agressive towards you? Conflict? A lot of the wrong kind of attention? Troll postings? Flame postings? But, posting in the correct forums means you're asking that same question, to a group that shares your interest and maybe your concern and possibly might have some insights that can help. All sans the potential conflict.

Which is the better solution for a healthy, meaningful and reasonable discussion on a topic between players?

Perhaps understanding that what you wish to discuss only appeals to a small group is the first step in having a worthwhile conversation with that group instead of one that goes quickly off the rails and the community team and moderators have to step in and clean up or close? Which obviously makes things that much worse.

Just food for thought, this seems to happen in-game as well. GLFF is a good example. It's supposed to be for fellowships, but instead its more of a social channel(much to the ire of quite a few people). After all its easier to have everything in one spot than to have to constantly jump all over the place for every little thing you need(in glff's case i blame the difficulty in managing user channels, hint hint). As disorganized as this seems its born out of love of convenience, something we ALL share.

But as for the forums i would say that general gets a lot of attention due to that pesky little Dev Tracker constantly saying General Discussion all the time. Many are under the impression that only General Discussion gets any form of Dev attention, perhaps this can be alleviated with a much clearer sense of who's responsible for what? I don't doubt many raiders would post more in the raider forums if they knew clearly who their go to guys (or gals) were, and not just the community team alone. Everyone wants to see a dev speak on a topic that's bothering them. If they knew who they wanted to hear their issue, and actually see that dev every so often in the proper forums, i think many people would be more inclined to stick to the proper channels of communication.

I mean, what would happen if the PvMP dev(s) was on the MP forums often?
I can only dream...