15.2 Player music

[Linawillow]

EDIT: Managed to make it work - rolled up a new character, that did the trick (the one I tried was left from the previous beta, so I suppose that may have been the issue). Someone else has also found that "Quantize player music" under audio options needs to be enabled for manual playback in this build.

Old message:

From patch notes for the first build:

Music
NOTE: In this build the ABC playback feature does not work so notes will need to be played manually. This should be corrected in the next build.

• The updates to the music system have once again been put into the game. Instruments have had their notes updated, cleaned up, retuned, and volume re-leveled to be consistent. Please let us know what you think.

Has anyone been able to get any sound at all from their instruments with this build? I understand that ABC playback has been disabled, but it seems manual playing via the keyboard has been switched off too. No matter what instrument I equip, there is no sound coming when I press associated keys, and no "floating notes" appear over my head.

The key presses register, though, because if I mash the keyboard, I get the "Too many requests, slow down" message. They just don't convert to music in-game.

And yes, I have checked to see that my player music slider isn't set to zero. The keyboard just don't work as input to player instruments. Which makes it a bit hard to test the changes

I have bugged it. Has anyone else had more luck, though?

[Linawillow]

Managed to get things to work by rolling up a new character. Also make sure that "Quantize player music" under audio options is enabled, seems it it necessary for manual playback in this build.

I haven't had the time to do any real testing, but I saw quite a few issues on my end:

• Some rather nasty twangy string notes
• Strings are pretty loud in general
• One high-pitched bagpipe note that will have folks running for cover.
• If I am not mistaken, that problematic clarinet note from the previous attempt has issues still.
• The pibgorn sounded rather silent.

This was just from 5 minutes messing about a bit. I'll try do more proper work tomorrow

[Linawillow]

U15.2 beta build 1, instrument by instrument, note by note playthrough. It is a boring 17 minutes, but perhaps somewhat enlightening too? *smiles*. Quite a few dodgy notes, not least for the harp, although I haven't had much time to go into details yet.

(Sound capture based on generic software playback through an Asus D2X sound card).

Here is also an image of the volume levels across instruments, just a visual based on the audio output from the same video:



If you want a larger version of the same image, have a look here

Clarinet, Flute, Horn, Lute and Bagpipe are somewhat evenly matched (although the flute seems to be the loudest). Pibgorn is silent, Drums are somewhat quiet (but with large internal volume differences), while the strings totally dominate. Especially the Harp and the Theorbo.

I'll see if I can make a similar video/image from the instrument sounds currently live, to compare.

[Vyvyanne]

We are updating the build now with some big fixes including ABC working again. Please give it another look-see tonight

[Kirgoin]

I do follow this thread closely cause after the last bad Update of the music system most of the music playing community did stop playing. Some players did left for ever and some have come back lately after a long pause.
So another bad or hasty update will cause the leaving of the most of the rest of this community, which will deplete the RP-Servers. So be very careful with implementing this system. That's my plea.

A music loving and playing dwarf....

[Linawillow]

Thanks for the new build!

It seems some problematic notes from the first build has been fixed: A4 on the bagpipe and all C#-notes on the harp were one octave higher than they should last time, but that's good now!

One problem: The harp plays so loud now, I got crackling/distortion if I played at full player music volume. Playing a file at +f+, I had to knock Player Music Volume down to about 0.65 to avoid the distortion. The same thing is there for the theorbo.

Else, I tried a duo song with another musician. The first reaction was that "er, it is a bit like playing in a bathroom". It might be because the general boosting of volumes, but it felt like the strings had a sharp reverb sound to them. Will have to try more songs, though.

Here is a video from the same duet:

[Elwenwing]

Thank you Turbine for continuing work on the Lotro Music system!

I can confirm that especially the harp but also the theorbo will cause quite a good deal of distortion in the sound they play over the speakers with high player music volume settings!

The tresshold for eliminating it seems to be around 65 to 70 % of the player music volume setting.

It seems to me that the distortion of the harp sounds at 0.9 of the player music volume setting was even worse than how it plays in the above posted video!

[diamond-tinidril]

Thanks for the new build! One problem: The harp plays so loud now, I got crackling/distortion if I played at full player music volume. Playing a file at +f+, I had to knock Player Music Volume down to about 0.65 to avoid the distortion. The same thing is there for the theorbo.

Else, I tried a duo song with another musician. The first reaction was that "er, it is a bit like playing in a bathroom". It might be because the general boosting of volumes, but it felt like the strings had a sharp reverb sound to them. Will have to try more songs, though.

I was experiencing that distortion with more than just the harp, but I just thought it was my cheap headphones.

I compared the BR harp to live by logging into live on an alt account while my main account was open on BR. The BR harp is five times as loud as on live. BR Player Music volume had to be brought down to 0.20 to be the same level as live at full volume. Most of the other BR instruments are also louder than on live (except for drum), though not equally louder (at 0.20 some BR instruments were quieter than live, most notably horn).

The major changes in harp are in tone. This new BR harp sounds completely different. Live harp sounds like my nylon-stringed folk harp played with fingertips (not long nails). BR harp sounds like a metal-stringed Celtic harp played with fingernails (very like the harp used by Patrick Ball). The attack is hard, loud and full of reverb. It's actually a beautiful sounding harp! But, it is not going to be compatible with existing ABC songs where the harp is being used precisely for it's soft mellow sound and full sustain. And it changes the character of solo harp songs. A change this drastic almost needs a whole new instrument, such as a Rohirrim harp (more appropriate to their Anglo-Saxon heritage) or like the harp seen in Gondor on NPCs.

[Orlor]

Here is my take on the new music.

First, there are no dead notes! That is a improvement over the last upadate.

Lute: Generally, I like the direction they are going. The notes sound much clearer and I can play the instrument in the lower octave without it sounding like a muddled mess. However, there are one or two notes that sound "Twangier" then the others. When I am playing, it sounds like I am playing two different instruments at the same time sometimes. It's not a huge deal but it is noticeable and on some songs that I played, it even gave a interesting sound. However, I am not sure I want that interesting sound in all my songs. Also, the volume was increased needlessly. There are not too many people who complained about not being able to hear the lutes.

Drums: I haven't really noticed that big of a difference in the drums. The shakers might have been brought down a bit but I would have like to see the bass and toms be brought up a bit.

Theorbo: Ok. It looks like that Turbine can't seem to make up their minds on this instrument. In the old music system, the Theorbos were soft and needed to be brought up a bit or even doubles to get the desired volume. In the last update, they made it even softer. :O In this update, they went to the other extreme. Now it pretty much drowns out everything else. Plus, like the Lute, there is one string that is "Twangier" then the others. You might get away with it in a full blown band song but in a duet, it is very noticeable.

Bagpipe: I don't see much of a difference in the bagpipes except that they may have brought them down a bit. I don't really have a big problem with it.

Flute: The Flute has been brought up some and I think it sounds pretty nice. I don't have any problems with the flute.

Horn: Once again, no big change except for a vol adjustment. No problem with this one as well.

Clarinet: Not noticing a big change in this one except that maybe they tuned it a bit better. There is also that one note that gave us problems the last update but it is barely noticeable now.

Cowbells [Regular/Moor]: I noticed no change in either of these instruments.

Pibgorn: The less said about the pibgorn, the better. :P

Which brings us to the Harp...

OH...MY...GOD...

I know people were complaining about the softness of the harp (I was one of them) but this is ridiculous. It drowns out every single instrument. And the sound! It sounds more like a harpsichord then a harp. I know both instruments have the word "harp" in their names but one does not sound like the other. Out of all the problems I mentioned, this one is the most serious and needs to be addressed before this is released live.

I appreciate the developers working on this but please listen to us this time and don't release this live before addressing our concerns.

[Swagman]

I just played some of my solo ABC files on Bullroarer and things are sounding pretty good to me. There's three changes I would make tho.

1. Lute: It's a bit loud. I would return the lute volume to what it was in the old system. Don't change anything else just the volume.

2. Therobo: To loud now. I'd like to see a happy medium between what it is on Bullroarer and what it was in the old system.

3. Harp: Made my ears bleed it was so loud, and as Orly said sounds more like harpsicord than harp. I'd return harp volume to what it was in the old system, and make it sound like a harp again.

Pighorn: I never use it so I'll leave it to those that do to comment on it.

All the other instruments sound pretty good to me. Make those 3 changes I suggested and I'll be a happy camper

Oh and I want to thank you folks at Turbine for taking the time to work on the music system again.

[Erethal]

The major changes in harp are in tone. This new BR harp sounds completely different. Live harp sounds like my nylon-stringed folk harp played with fingertips (not long nails). BR harp sounds like a metal-stringed Celtic harp played with fingernails (very like the harp used by Patrick Ball). The attack is hard, loud and full of reverb. It's actually a beautiful sounding harp! But, it is not going to be compatible with existing ABC songs where the harp is being used precisely for it's soft mellow sound and full sustain. And it changes the character of solo harp songs. A change this drastic almost needs a whole new instrument, such as a Rohirrim harp (more appropriate to their Anglo-Saxon heritage) or like the harp seen in Gondor on NPCs.

Agreed. While I love the new harp, I'm afraid it's going to ruin the pieces I've arranged that rely on those gentle, peaceful sounds. Please retain the current harp and create an alternative. Since we now have both versions already, I'm hoping this should be an easy implementation. The more options the merrier!

[Elwenwing]

I agree that the new harp does sound way too different from the old one, and would probably not work with most of the player created music pieces. Why it changed so much from the previous version and the old harp sounds I do not know!

As far as I'm concerned the development of the music system should at this point mainly be focused on implementing the new instruments in a balanced way so they will work as well as possible with most of the music created by players over the years!

The first attempt at new instruments was a pretty good one, with the main issue being the unbalanced volume of the different instruments.

Now again I'm wondering why the volume differences between the new instruments individually are so huge, as clearly shown by the graph posted above!

Trying to get the volumes of the new instruments to the same level of volume the old instruments have would be the best basis to start, even though not everyone agrees that is the best balance!

Clearly great events like Winterstock show that the old system is very workable!

[Vyvyanne]

Thank you everyone for the valuable feedback.

We are working on the following changes for the next build:
1. Lower the volumes on a couple of the instruments
2. Switch the harp back to its live version

We hope those changes will get us to a place that will please the musicians and festival goers!

[Linawillow]

Thank you everyone for the valuable feedback.

We are working on the following changes for the next build:
1. Lower the volumes on a couple of the instruments
2. Switch the harp back to its live version

We hope those changes will get us to a place that will please the musicians and festival goers!

Thanks for the quick updates!

1. Volume adjustments are grand! Here is what I get myself when comparing outputs from U15.2 build 2 and live volumes (just playing continuous scales at +ffff+, 100% master and player music volume), so the harp and the theorbo should definitely be among the top candidates for volume lowering:



2. Regarding the harp, is there a way to keep both the old and the new version in the game? After the initial shock, I see lots of potential uses for the new sound, and I personally could see it used in some of my already coverted tunes too (albeit with lower volume and with a scaled-back reverb). The old harp sounds nice enough, but it also feels bit muddy, especially the low notes.

Else, there are some problematic individual notes here and there. There are many minor problems, but some larger ones I have heard are:

Lute:
D#2 is exceedingly twangy
B3 and B4 sound like they use harp samples instead of the lute

Theorbo:
E2 has an odd dull "thud" to it, compared the surrounding notes
B3 sounds like it uses the harp sample instead of the theorbo

Flute:
F3 is rather loud and breathy. Other notes with a similar problem are C#3, A4 and A#4.

There are issues with other notes than these too, though. Also, there are volume variations between different notes on the same instrument.

[Mar-Evayave]

If we can keep 2 harp sounds, it sure would make Gleowine's Harp pretty special. Tie the old sound to standard harps and the new sound to Gleowine's Harp (or vice versa), and then make Gleowine's Harp a barterable item with the Survivor's of Wildermore for players who didn't keep theirs. Then the harps will not just look different, but also sound different.

[Thurallor]

I would be curious to hear from the developer who is working on this what criteria are being used to scale the relative volumes of instruments and their individual notes. Just looking at graphs like Linawillow posted above and scaling the samples so they all look roughly the same height would give you a pretty coarse approximation of what you want.

In particular, it wouldn't account for a couple of major factors that affect the perceived loudness of the notes. There's been a lot of research over the last century or so into what causes people to perceive some things as louder than others. One result is that we know the human ear perceives tones at some frequencies as louder than others, even if they have the same amplitude. This graph shows the frequency response of the human ear, at various sound levels:

You can see from the graph that the frequency we hear the "best" is around 3000 Hz (which you can hear here). If the frequency is lower or higher than that, then you have to significantly boost the tone in order for it to be perceived as the same loudness.

Another major factor that isn't reflected in Linawillow's graphs is that some instruments (strings, drums) have notes that vary in loudness over time (attack and decay), whereas other instruments (wind instruments) have notes that maintain the same loudness for their duration. When trying to scale the lute to be the same perceived loudness as the horn, you would have to scale the lute note such that it is louder than the horn at the beginning of the note, but softer at the end.

There are existing algorithms that take account of these factors which could be used to automatically scale the notes such that all notes of all instruments are perceived to be the same loudness by a majority of the population. But I don't think it's necessary to be that precise in this application. If I were a software engineer working on this problem, I think I would just concatenate all of the notes into a single huge .wav file, and distribute it to the musically-inclined players such as Linawillow. Let them apply the scaling according to their subjective judgements and send the .wav file back to you. Then use those results to scale the notes in the game.

I'm sure there's some bureaucratic red-tape reason why that can't happen, though.

[frickinmuck]

If we can keep 2 harp sounds, it sure would make Gleowine's Harp pretty special. Tie the old sound to standard harps and the new sound to Gleowine's Harp (or vice versa), and then make Gleowine's Harp a barterable item with the Survivor's of Wildermore for players who didn't keep theirs. Then the harps will not just look different, but also sound different.

I like this suggestion, as long as any issues with odd notes have been resolved.

[Pony-o]

If we can keep 2 harp sounds, it sure would make Gleowine's Harp pretty special. Tie the old sound to standard harps and the new sound to Gleowine's Harp (or vice versa), and then make Gleowine's Harp a barterable item with the Survivor's of Wildermore for players who didn't keep theirs. Then the harps will not just look different, but also sound different.

That is a brilliant idea, though I kinda fear it may be another one of those changes that look easy on the surface but are a lot more work as far as programming goes.

[Baritone]

This system should have been ditched long ago. No one wants to hear awful versions of Metallica in this setting. Out of all the lore breaking outcries this game has had the music system is by far the worst and I can't believe resources are being used on it this late in the game. And I am by no means a troll I promote positive influence

[Thurallor]

This system should have been ditched long ago. No one wants to hear awful versions of Metallica in this setting. Out of all the lore breaking outcries this game has had the music system is by far the worst and I can't believe resources are being used on it this late in the game. And I am by no means a troll I promote positive influence

Your opinion is in the (small) minority.

[Swagman]

This system should have been ditched long ago. No one wants to hear awful versions of Metallica in this setting. Out of all the lore breaking outcries this game has had the music system is by far the worst and I can't believe resources are being used on it this late in the game. And I am by no means a troll I promote positive influence

Your opinion is in the small minority indeed. You also have the option to turn off player music so why complain about something you are not forced to listen to?

[West-northwestook]

If we can keep 2 harp sounds, it sure would make Gleowine's Harp pretty special. Tie the old sound to standard harps and the new sound to Gleowine's Harp (or vice versa), and then make Gleowine's Harp a barterable item with the Survivor's of Wildermore for players who didn't keep theirs. Then the harps will not just look different, but also sound different.

I'd love for this idea to be feasible.

[Vyvyanne]

Making two harps, while perhaps a future possibility is not a possibility in the near term. We can keep the new sound and lower the volume or we can return it to the version currently on the live servers.

[Erethal]

Making two harps, while perhaps a future possibility is not a possibility in the near term. We can keep the new sound and lower the volume or we can return it to the version currently on the live servers.

Thanks for the reply. Please stick to your current plan and revert the harp to its original sound.

[Swagman]

As I posted on BR forums a while back I don't think volumes should be changed from the old system at all. We have already compensated for volumes when we made our ABC files. Changing volumes now will make all our files sound different when played in game. So if as you say, you are trying to even out the volume levels, then when I play an ABC file that I have turned the volume on lute down a bit to play softly in the background and turned up the volume of a horn to play the melody and you for example have turned the volume of lute up and horn down or even left it the same. Then you have completely changed the way that file will sound when played in game. The lute will now be dominating the song. Get the instruments in tune? Yes! Fix any wonky notes? Yes! But I say leave the volumes as they are in the old system. Does anyone get what I'm saying or am I just babbling nonsense?