What would be required to make wardens desirable aa tanks.

[Kander]

In the context of a quick fix before t5 or raid release... What quick and fast changes could be implemented for a tanking warden to make it desirable for harder content?
Pretty much most people agree that captain spot is 100% not in debate for one tanking spot since they bring an insane amount of support to the group, so then changes would need to be focused on making wardens an alternative to guardians. What's your ideas? Mine are:

1: rework a bit Never surrender skill in blue line. Basically it's decent for a dps role but terrible as a tanking emergency skill. I would suggest reducing the cool down by another 2 minutes at least in blue line and make it apply a defensive buff for 15-20s after it's triggered. (Something like -40% Inc damage or avoidance buff or incoming healing buff, just something significant in% so when something goes wrong in the middle of the fight and you use that NS you get some survivability for a short while rather than just one big heal which is worth 2s of boss damage).

2: an extra click able emergency skill which gives some defence for a while, something like guardian's pledge or similar.

So what are warden community suggestions?
Try to keep it as something quick or simple so there is a chance to make changes in a small update rather than having to wait years to see it implemented. Not exactly a revamp post about how to make blue wardens good or enjoyable but rather just a quick fix to make them viable.

[scorrp10]

Mentioned before:
Mit buffs should be moved from DC to say...
Shield Mastery. DC is our force taunt.

First Aid: guards get a trait very early in yellow to make their cure clean 2-4 conditions, not 1. Wardens need something like that too.

Shield Tactics: stun immunity is 10s up/20 down, doesn't seem too good.

Recently, mobs are all too fond of tossing the player around. I.e. shadow roost/black lore etc, bosses seem all too fond of playing football with the tank. A trait like 'stand your ground' could provide a chance to resist punts. (15/30/45/60/75%)

Itemization: Instances rarely yield Agi/Vit gear with Tac Mit/Inc Healing instead of the useless Parry/Evade stuff. But neither crafting nor ember gear offers such option. There definitely should be one.

[Krindel]

1. Add 60% damage reduction to the skill "For the Free Peoples"
2. Reduce cooldown of Never Surrender by 180s, so cooldown will be same as guardian's Warrior's Heart skill
and blue line will be hot fixed

[Caanwick]

Fully agree to what has been posted so far. In addition I would ask that Warden self-heals be buffed to offset the fact that they take more damage than other tanks. Either tie it to Blue line or adjust LI legacies. Significantly increase the healing of Fierce Resolve line morale taps, Conviction, and Persevere line to get them on par relative to other tanks. Possibly even move the Mit buffs from DC to the Persevere line to kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.

[Osglinthor]

Hmm quick fixes,15 20% passive finesse only when spec blue so one can at least have some fun tanking by using dots instead force taunt spam(affects all classes but ward at least has best threat if he hits).
Move mits from DC to other gambit buff like shiled mastery,inscrease fellow protector buff to 1 min.Reduce cd of stun break skill,add more effects remove to first aid.Add % base panic.
When it comes to self heals change to % might be good call and additional increase in duration so one can keep all up if he focuses on it but having to refresh rotation.maybe 12-15% per 3 sec spread over gambits.
Change to % would mess up with legacy.Would take a look at self heals after more important things are added/changed.

[Ethrildar]

The list is insanely long because Wardens are so far behind any competitors buuut:

+10% passive mits in blue line - In addition, FIX OUR DEFAULT MITIGATIONS FOR ALL LINES. Warden mits are SO, SO LOW. My RK without a single essence, gear piece or virtue to mits has literally double the mits of my medium armour Warden. It's a joke.
Massively increase the HOTs which haven't scaled even 5% as much as our morale pools have since lvl 100-105
Consolidate many of the BPE and mitigation buffs into fewer gambits to allow Wardens to fill the DPS-tank niche without having to pick from getting trashed and doing DPS or doing no DPS but maintaining all buffs
Add two clickable cooldown skills; one significant BPE buff and one significant mitigation or morale buff/bubble
First Aid should be traitable like Guards to be able to cure 3-4 debuffs, being so susceptible to both silence and disarm effects is debilitating
Make our BPE and mitigation gambit buffs and traits percentage based
Bring back Precise Blow's insane threat gen, or make it a 3-5 second force taunt, we lack reasonable options for ST taunting between tanks in raids
Reduce Steadfast cooldown to 40-60 seconds
Conviction mitigation buff (stacking) should affect the entire fellowship
All tanks have a damage redirect from the group to the tank, provide one to Wardens that transfers damage into healing or something for a short duration
Give us an in combat, short duration, short CD sprint. Yellow line's passive Ambush proc is super cool, without needing to stand still it would be perfect
Improve morale taps somehow, they're sort of useless. Offensive Strike morale tap could be so much better and is a cool gambit

Wardens really lack:
Mits
BPE (Current caps are wild and unattainable)
Group utility
Emergency skills
Quick-to-apply self buffs (Getting every gambit buff up is a fairly significant survivability increase but if you die in the first 8 seconds, well...)
Easy access to taunts

Some of these need to be rectified, but probably not all. A Warden brings inferior survivability and inferior group utility to a fight in which a Guardian or Captain takes literally half the damage whilst maintaining a plethora of useful emergency skills for themselves and the group.

Oh, and finally, please give us capstone skills that aren't complete junk?

[Krindel]

I have done this picture for dear lotro community. Have a nice weekend.

[Osglinthor]

I have done this picture for dear lotro community. Have a nice weekend.

Damn this one is good xD

[Kander]

The list is insanely long because Wardens are so far behind any competitors buuut:

+10% passive mits in blue line - In addition, FIX OUR DEFAULT MITIGATIONS FOR ALL LINES. Warden mits are SO, SO LOW. My RK without a single essence, gear piece or virtue to mits has literally double the mits of my medium armour Warden. It's a joke.
Massively increase the HOTs which haven't scaled even 5% as much as our morale pools have since lvl 100-105
Consolidate many of the BPE and mitigation buffs into fewer gambits to allow Wardens to fill the DPS-tank niche without having to pick from getting trashed and doing DPS or doing no DPS but maintaining all buffs
Add two clickable cooldown skills; one significant BPE buff and one significant mitigation or morale buff/bubble
First Aid should be traitable like Guards to be able to cure 3-4 debuffs, being so susceptible to both silence and disarm effects is debilitating
Make our BPE and mitigation gambit buffs and traits percentage based
Bring back Precise Blow's insane threat gen, or make it a 3-5 second force taunt, we lack reasonable options for ST taunting between tanks in raids
Reduce Steadfast cooldown to 40-60 seconds
Conviction mitigation buff (stacking) should affect the entire fellowship
All tanks have a damage redirect from the group to the tank, provide one to Wardens that transfers damage into healing or something for a short duration
Give us an in combat, short duration, short CD sprint. Yellow line's passive Ambush proc is super cool, without needing to stand still it would be perfect
Improve morale taps somehow, they're sort of useless. Offensive Strike morale tap could be so much better and is a cool gambit

Wardens really lack:
Mits
BPE (Current caps are wild and unattainable)
Group utility
Emergency skills
Quick-to-apply self buffs (Getting every gambit buff up is a fairly significant survivability increase but if you die in the first 8 seconds, well...)
Easy access to taunts

Some of these need to be rectified, but probably not all. A Warden brings inferior survivability and inferior group utility to a fight in which a Guardian or Captain takes literally half the damage whilst maintaining a plethora of useful emergency skills for themselves and the group.

Oh, and finally, please give us capstone skills that aren't complete junk?

I nearly agree with everything here but... I was thinking of this post more as a quick band-aid fix to make wardens viable, not really fix them. In hopes (yes I am that naive) to have them implemented fast and before raid is out, I'm not sure all those changes can be made in a quick update.

[Sindhol]

(1) For the Free Peoples gets axed. New cooldown: every two minutes, bubble equal to max morale.
(2) Never Surrender cooldown reduced by five minutes. Never Surrender trait reduces the cooldown by three minutes (final cd with trait: two minutes). Best-case: NS applies Last Stand effect (for 4-6s) with the heal at the end.
(3) Revel in Combat and Exultation of Battle combined into one trait. New 30 rank set trait: +50% outgoing healing.
(4) Block, parry, evade legacies and traits changed to percent increases to the base value, around 50% each, stacking multiplicatively (i.e. 225% of current base values with trait and maxed legacy).
(5) Shield Mastery and Shield Tactics combined into one trait. New 20 rank set trait: First Aid clears two debuffs, -60s Steadfast cooldown.
(6) Warning Shot > Warning Shout, with shorter animation. Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds.
(7) -30% attack duration and shorter animations all around. Blue warden feels soooo sloooow.
(8) Conviction mit buff gets axed (or added to some other trait, I don't mind it, it's just not worth a capstone). New cooldown: every two minutes, +25% mits for 15s.

I think the problems with interrupts/corrupts (lack of quick-response ability) aren't simple fixes. But the attack duration helps a little, I guess.

[Kander]

(1) For the Free Peoples gets axed. New cooldown: every two minutes, bubble equal to max morale.
(2) Never Surrender cooldown reduced by five minutes. Never Surrender trait reduces the cooldown by three minutes (final cd with trait: two minutes). Best-case: NS applies Last Stand effect (for 4-6s) with the heal at the end.
(3) Revel in Combat and Exultation of Battle combined into one trait. New 30 rank set trait: +50% outgoing healing.
(4) Block, parry, evade legacies and traits changed to percent increases to the base value, around 50% each, stacking multiplicatively (i.e. 225% of current base values with trait and maxed legacy).
(5) Shield Mastery and Shield Tactics combined into one trait. New 20 rank set trait: First Aid clears two debuffs, -60s Steadfast cooldown.
(6) Warning Shot > Warning Shout, with shorter animation. Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds.
(7) -30% attack duration and shorter animations all around. Blue warden feels soooo sloooow.
(8) Conviction mit buff gets axed (or added to some other trait, I don't mind it, it's just not worth a capstone). New cooldown: every two minutes, +25% mits for 15s.

I think the problems with interrupts/corrupts (lack of quick-response ability) aren't simple fixes. But the attack duration helps a little, I guess.

I think it looks very good to be honest, some redundant traits to be removed and getting the trait slot for something useful like out-heal and debuff/stun clearing.
1&8: I think only one of these should make it, already making NS relevant and increased self heals would be good, I like the bubble idea for warden although the 25% mits is gonna be more useful to be honest, I wouldn't implement both.

2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 100% agree, easy to implement and huge QoL improvements.

7: A bit too much, I'd say just 10% or maybe 15% is enough.

[Osglinthor]

(7) -30% attack duration and shorter animations all around. Blue warden feels soooo sloooow.

Even red feels slow,its in good spot damage wise atm but its rly not that fun to play due to such slow animations.But then again this affects all classes esp if play on higher MS.

[Sindhol]

I think it looks very good to be honest, some redundant traits to be removed and getting the trait slot for something useful like out-heal and debuff/stun clearing.
1&8: I think only one of these should make it, already making NS relevant and increased self heals would be good, I like the bubble idea for warden although the 25% mits is gonna be more useful to be honest, I wouldn't implement both.

2, 3, 4, 5 & 6 100% agree, easy to implement and huge QoL improvements.

7: A bit too much, I'd say just 10% or maybe 15% is enough.

I put in three full cooldowns because guardians have three cooldowns (plus Litany), and captains have two cooldowns (plus double rez, IHW, FW, and so on). Even though it seems--is--a huge buff, it's not out of line with other tanks. -30% attack duration is intentionally hyperbolic though . Speed matters, but pure attack duration won't fix our problems.

Even red feels slow,its in good spot damage wise atm but its rly not that fun to play due to such slow animations.But then again this affects all classes esp if play on higher MS.

I agree, but I don't think it's as fundamentally problematic in red. For example, if we imagine a world in which wardens are a sustained DPS specialist, all about the slow-and-steady bleeding of mighty foes (i.e. little burst, but highest sustain on high-morale targets), then slow skills with high damage-per-cast could be part of the design*. For tanking, on the other hand, you want precise, quick interrupts, corruption removals, taunts/aggroes, movements, and emergency responses/cooldowns (none of which wardens do very well at all). Being slow is not good for DPS, but it's potentially compatible (and it can have positive side effects, like allowing efficient kiting). For tanking, being slow just isn't an option.


*How close this world is to reality is a matter of perspective, I suppose, but I think we can agree there's a sizable gap.

[Kander]

I put in three full cooldowns because guardians have three cooldowns (plus Litany), and captains have two cooldowns (plus double rez, IHW, FW, and so on). Even though it seems--is--a huge buff, it's not out of line with other tanks. -30% attack duration is intentionally hyperbolic though . Speed matters, but pure attack duration won't fix our problems.


I agree, but I don't think it's as fundamentally problematic in red. For example, if we imagine a world in which wardens are a sustained DPS specialist, all about the slow-and-steady bleeding of mighty foes (i.e. little burst, but highest sustain on high-morale targets), then slow skills with high damage-per-cast could be part of the design*. For tanking, on the other hand, you want precise, quick interrupts, corruption removals, taunts/aggroes, movements, and emergency responses/cooldowns (none of which wardens do very well at all). Being slow is not good for DPS, but it's potentially compatible (and it can have positive side effects, like allowing efficient kiting). For tanking, being slow just isn't an option.


*How close this world is to reality is a matter of perspective, I suppose, but I think we can agree there's a sizable gap.

I might agree on the first part about cooldowns, now that you think it even both wouldn't be unbalanced vs guardians which also got 3 good cooldowns and receive substantially less damage due to higher mits and deffensive buffs.

About attack duration... meh, I feel like no attack duration buff will achieve making warden quick to react to interrupts/corruptions, since you have to build a gambit for that, and unless you happen to have no gambit built at that moment and masteries off cooldown...it's just not gonna be possible to "quickly" interrupt/remove corruption. If you want that it would need maybe a better design of battle memory so you can build it and keep it there ready forever so you have an easy access gambit always during the fight, but that would require further changes on how the class works (althought it wouldn't be a bad idea to be able to build a gambit at the start of the fight and only get it removed from battle memory if you put a different gambit in battle memory, would be a huge QoL improvement in fights where you need interrupts).
I still think a 10-15% faster animations and attack duration in tank traits would be perfectly fine as it allows for a bit better reactiveness in case you have to taunt fast or use a cd.

BUT ANYWAYS DEVS HAVEN'T EVEN SAID A SINGLE WORD EVER ABOUT TANKING WARDENS BEING IN A BAD SPOT AND I THINK THEY DON'T EVEN WANT WARDENS TO BE ABLE TO TANK, SO THIS ENTIRE THREAD MAY BE WORTHLESS

[Sindhol]

(althought it wouldn't be a bad idea to be able to build a gambit at the start of the fight and only get it removed from battle memory if you put a different gambit in battle memory, would be a huge QoL improvement in fights where you need interrupts)

That would be so nice. Hell, put a ten-second cooldown on it, for balance and everything, and it's still great.

BUT ANYWAYS DEVS HAVEN'T EVEN SAID A SINGLE WORD EVER ABOUT TANKING WARDENS BEING IN A BAD SPOT AND I THINK THEY DON'T EVEN WANT WARDENS TO BE ABLE TO TANK, SO THIS ENTIRE THREAD MAY BE WORTHLESS

Sadly, yes.

[Ethrildar]

If you want that it would need maybe a better design of battle memory so you can build it and keep it there ready forever so you have an easy access gambit always during the fight, but that would require further changes on how the class works (althought it wouldn't be a bad idea to be able to build a gambit at the start of the fight and only get it removed from battle memory if you put a different gambit in battle memory, would be a huge QoL improvement in fights where you need interrupts).

This would be absolutely incredible. Would of course need a cooldown of 5-10 seconds to avoid becoming broken, but would be an amazing QoL change for Warden, some gambits are filthy to build and use so many masteries...

[AaronIU]

Scale and make morale taps useful again. This was also a place where wardens shined and now it’s quite the opposite.
Scale Conviction to make Wardens more attractive for 3 mans this could be done through the legacy.
Restoration heals needs a bigger heal upfront, and change the HOT to % morale.
Stun immunity has 50% downtime, this is a nightmare for wardens who are preemptive rather than reactive.
Agreed that NS should provide a incoming damage reduction buff for a short time after it procs.
Make the incoming healing, block (might), and tact mit gear available for wardens. Currently we have to run Might jewels to gain any traction there because we see nothing in the gear.
Speed up some of the animations and lag on masteries that slow down gambit building.

Make battle prep work together with battle memory and store a single gambit out of combat, while holding one in battle prep for start of the fight. This would function as a “clickable” that you get to choose.

[Kander]

This would be absolutely incredible. Would of course need a cooldown of 5-10 seconds to avoid becoming broken, but would be an amazing QoL change for Warden, some gambits are filthy to build and use so many masteries...

I shouldn't be hard to put a 5-10s cd in battle memory so people don't use it to spam restoration or other skills so fast if they make the gambit not dissappear until you store a different one or go out of combat for a while.

[mrgiles]

(1) For the Free Peoples gets axed. New cooldown: every two minutes, bubble equal to max morale.
(2) Never Surrender cooldown reduced by five minutes. Never Surrender trait reduces the cooldown by three minutes (final cd with trait: two minutes). Best-case: NS applies Last Stand effect (for 4-6s) with the heal at the end.
(3) Revel in Combat and Exultation of Battle combined into one trait. New 30 rank set trait: +50% outgoing healing.
(4) Block, parry, evade legacies and traits changed to percent increases to the base value, around 50% each, stacking multiplicatively (i.e. 225% of current base values with trait and maxed legacy).
(5) Shield Mastery and Shield Tactics combined into one trait. New 20 rank set trait: First Aid clears two debuffs, -60s Steadfast cooldown.
(6) Warning Shot > Warning Shout, with shorter animation. Cooldown reduced to 20 seconds.
(7) -30% attack duration and shorter animations all around. Blue warden feels soooo sloooow.
(8) Conviction mit buff gets axed (or added to some other trait, I don't mind it, it's just not worth a capstone). New cooldown: every two minutes, +25% mits for 15s.

I think the problems with interrupts/corrupts (lack of quick-response ability) aren't simple fixes. But the attack duration helps a little, I guess.

I agree with everything but number 8. That mitigation bonus from conviction is really nice! I like it at 30 seconds.
I'm not sure what everyone is doing right or wrong, but thus far in MM, I've not had a difficult time tanking up to T3 instances (minus the raid). Not sure if it's my groups' makeup or not.

[Sindhol]

I'm not sure what everyone is doing right or wrong, but thus far in MM, I've not had a difficult time tanking up to T3 instances (minus the raid). Not sure if it's my groups' makeup or not.

It's not (just) your group makeup. Wardens are--and have been for a long time--very good at tanking easier content. Back at 105 cap, wardens were good speedrunning tanks, for example (mit debuffs + acceptable DPS in blue + double NS for those pesky mechanics that you can't ignore through sheer damage).


If you imagine graphing the damage taken (TPS) in an instance, and look at different tank classes, you get something like this:

Captain: Pretty low TPS overall, and any peaks get flattened by bubbles or ignored with Last Stand.
Guardian: Pretty low TPS overall, with little dips where Redirect is up. Any peaks get flattened by Pledge/Juggernaut or outhealed with Warrior's Heart.
Warden: Much higher TPS overall--baseline is at least 25% more than the above. Any peaks can't be flattened and result in death.


The new raid set may help a little bit with that baseline, but the lack of cooldowns is still crippling.

[fealegwe2]

make Gambit masteries cooldown in blue line only 2 secs

[WhimsicalPacifist]

It's not (just) your group makeup. Wardens are--and have been for a long time--very good at tanking easier content. Back at 105 cap, wardens were good speedrunning tanks, for example (mit debuffs + acceptable DPS in blue + double NS for those pesky mechanics that you can't ignore through sheer damage).


If you imagine graphing the damage taken (TPS) in an instance, and look at different tank classes, you get something like this:

Captain: Pretty low TPS overall, and any peaks get flattened by bubbles or ignored with Last Stand.
Guardian: Pretty low TPS overall, with little dips where Redirect is up. Any peaks get flattened by Pledge/Juggernaut or outhealed with Warrior's Heart.
Warden: Much higher TPS overall--baseline is at least 25% more than the above. Any peaks can't be flattened and result in death.


The new raid set may help a little bit with that baseline, but the lack of cooldowns is still crippling.

We need to start quantifying that TPS and exactly what standard deviation kills us. Somewhat annoyed at the "testing" done on Bullroarer; the rush is always to the new set and testing DPS instead of tanking. No testing is usually done (as far as I can tell) of establishing a control sampleset on Live and then using the same environment to test mechanical changes at the same level/gear (admittedly the other tanks have zero interest). Ideally you need a situation where you take over say 300-400 hits.

[zaboch]

Guess being a top tier DPS, second only to Burg, with amazing debuffs isn't enough for some people

[WhimsicalPacifist]

Guess being a top tier DPS, second only to Burg, with amazing debuffs isn't enough for some people

My kin/guild used me as a tank for about 4 years in LoTRO SoM to HD and I was confident in the class to PUG anything. I've just been main-tanking in other games where the tanks are actually balanced. Why bother trying if the end result is sub-par to begin with?

[Kander]

Guess being a top tier DPS, second only to Burg, with amazing debuffs isn't enough for some people

Amazing debuffs = 7.5% mit reduction? It's not bad, certainly but it's far from amazing. Champion, rk, burglar all offer more utility than warden while dpsing.

And what does it matter it being good dps, warden is intended to have a tank main role since its design, it's good now it has a dps build but I'd gladly sacrifice my dps build entirely to get a decent tank role back.