Accuracy from passives and agility removed - what replaces it?

[Aerundael]

I hope this carries over well. This is meant as constructive criticism.

Since RoI, where all the passive accuracy skills were removed, all my chars are missing in their attacks far more often vs normal mobs.
(Miss rate vs elites and higher is another topic, as I see it, since you have a team to make up for it).

Be it a hunter, guardian, champion or warden, all my chars are very negatively impacted in their ability to go through solo content by the reduced accuracy and increased miss chance they now have.

My playstyle is one where I tend to solo 90% of the time, I stay a long time in the same zone, where I find myself to be at least outleveling the landscape mobs, as I go through almost all the deeds and quests available in the region. So I'm very often 2-3 levels above the mobs I'm hunting. And yet my chars are missing their attacks more than ever.

Post-RoI, the removal of the passive accuracy skills is really hurting the speed at which my characters finish off mobs. I mean, I miss regularly vs green mobs (4-5 levels below mine), whereas before they were nigh insta-kills. It's flabbergasting.

What's more, before RoI I could grab 6-7 even level or higher level landscape mobs with my guardian, champion or warden and have a scrapping fun time killing them without dying! Sure, it was challenging and rightly so!
I had to use the right skills, use my major cooldowns and pop a potion or two. And it was fun!

Post-RoI, I have to do the same thing when I'm fighting 2 even levels mobs! It is far worse when they outlevel me! Popping my major cooldowns to survive that kind of fight is not something rare, it's mandatory. The worst examples are my Guardian and Warden characters. They have tons of survivability issues. Mitigating damage is fine and good, but you have to be able to hit your target to eventually defeat them!

I can understand why the accuracy passive skills were removed. Among other things, it allowed a new gameplay mechanic (finesse) to be introduced and simplified things where combining the inherent accuracy bonus of Agility to a high Finesse rating would have made anyone with very high Agility get something near 100% hit rating (since mobs would also have less chance to BPE an attack with high Finesse).

But right now, it's just ridiculous. Instead of removing the accuracy passive skills and the bonus to accuracy from Agility, it could have been subjected to Diminishing Returns, no?

As I see it, the lack of Accuracy rating and increased misses is slowing doing solo fighting in a very, very concrete way. Longer fights, especially in solo combat equals slower deeds, slower tasks, slower questing and general frustration all around.

Right now I'm averaging 30-40% misses on all my melee/ranged chars. That's a miss at least once every 3 or 4 hits/skill uses. It's slowing down combat and simply put, it's killing my fun. I know I'm not alone in this sentiment.

I'd much rather see a mob BPE my attack more often (which can then be dealt by adding finesse), rather than have a set % of my attacks missing, and on top of the increases misses,then applying vs the BPE of the mob. We're get double misses right now and its killing the enjoyment of playing this game.

I don't accept the excuse of the mobs having a fighting chance here. The idea is for players to have fun beating the living daylights out of mobs, not slowing down combat to a crawl by making them utterly miss their attacks more often than before vs the same mobs.

In addition, this point is perhaps the best reason why accuracy should still be in the game or have something to replace it : The faster that people can kill mobs solo, the faster they will gain levels to get to the endgame.

I hope this resonates with some other players, because honestly, solo combat is really bad right now, comparatively to what it was pre-RoI.

In summary, missing an attack is the worst thing to see in combat. It shouldn't happen often, certainly not as often as the current ratio. There are other ways to make combat exciting and challenging. This one makes it frustrating.

Please fix it or at least clarify how we can increase our accuracy/reduce our miss chance.

Thank you!

[ThorrandWS]

Bumping for clarification. If you have a mechanic in a game where it is possible to miss yet do not allow any way to improve these chances, that's just silly.

[Swabbie]

My main is a burglar. When I miss a mez doing challenging content (I'm currently doing the repeatables in Galtrev, and I'm specifically thinking about The Defence of Galtrev) then I have to burn pots, pop all my 5 and 10m cooldowns, and maybe a 30 minute one to get things under control again. Granted, they're 75 and I'm 72, but this happens every time I do that instance, I just never know when...and if it happens twice and I don't already have +regen food, +vit food, destiny perks rolling, and a scroll or two...then it eats me alive. The fishing one there is for the birds for that reason alone--last night I got to the bog lurker phase and after popping everything and then playing dead, a root killed me a few seconds later. It just took me tooooooo long to burn down the lurkers. That one takes too long, anyway, so no love lost there.

I'll mention that I tried go all in in this brave new Agi world Turbs has given us. Haven't really seen all that much of an improvement over where other burgs were at 65.

[Aerundael]

I'll mention that I tried go all in in this brave new Agi world Turbs has given us. Haven't really seen all that much of an improvement over where other burgs were at 65.

This is part of the problem. There's no clear alternative to get our miss chance/hit rating to what it was pre-RoI.

I wish we could get a clear answer on this and an explanation.

[Graalx2]

Agility still reduces miss chance the same way it always did. It will be added back to the Agility tooltip in the next update.

There is a base 10% miss chance with 0 Agility.
There is a +3% additional miss chance fighting +1 or +2 level mobs
There is a +10% additional miss chance fighting +3 or +4 level mobs
after +4 levels it gets much worse.

[Aerundael]

Agility still reduces miss chance the same way it always did. It will be added back to the Agility tooltip in the next update.

There is a base 10% miss chance with 0 Agility.
There is a +3% additional miss chance fighting +1 or +2 level mobs
There is a +10% additional miss chance fighting +3 or +4 level mobs
after +4 levels it gets much worse.

Thanks Ken! Much appreciated!

[Thane9]

Agility still reduces miss chance the same way it always did. It will be added back to the Agility tooltip in the next update.

There is a base 10% miss chance with 0 Agility.
There is a +3% additional miss chance fighting +1 or +2 level mobs
There is a +10% additional miss chance fighting +3 or +4 level mobs
after +4 levels it gets much worse.

Except vs MP players. This is an important caveat because it's led to a LOT of misunderstandings and grief about why a L65 Freep is still somewhat competative vs L75 Creeps.

[Swabbie]

Agility still reduces miss chance the same way it always did. It will be added back to the Agility tooltip in the next update.

There is a base 10% miss chance with 0 Agility.
There is a +3% additional miss chance fighting +1 or +2 level mobs
There is a +10% additional miss chance fighting +3 or +4 level mobs
after +4 levels it gets much worse.

Good stuff, thank you for clarifying.

[aoe4evr]

Agility still reduces miss chance the same way it always did. It will be added back to the Agility tooltip in the next update.

There is a base 10% miss chance with 0 Agility.
There is a +3% additional miss chance fighting +1 or +2 level mobs
There is a +10% additional miss chance fighting +3 or +4 level mobs
after +4 levels it gets much worse.

2 Questions

1. How much agility does it take to tier down the miss chance?

2. How are people that play a heavy class, or a warden for that matter, supposed to lower miss chance when the designers don't put agility on the raid gear or jewellery intended for heavy classes to use? I'm talking about set items, not random drop gloves from instances that occasionally have agility. No one is going to break up a set for that. So, essentially, how is anyone that is not a burg or hunter supposed to lower miss?

[Ailedra]

2. How are people that play a heavy class, or a warden for that matter, supposed to lower miss chance when the designers don't put agility on the raid gear or jewellery intended for heavy classes to use? I'm talking about set items, not random drop gloves from instances that occasionally have agility. No one is going to break up a set for that.

They are if they want to reduce miss. You have to make choices in your gearing now.

[ysnpwhite]

Agility still reduces miss chance the same way it always did. It will be added back to the Agility tooltip in the next update.

There is a base 10% miss chance with 0 Agility.
There is a +3% additional miss chance fighting +1 or +2 level mobs
There is a +10% additional miss chance fighting +3 or +4 level mobs
after +4 levels it gets much worse.

Are raid bosses still considered to be 3 levels over or do they consist of a seperate mechanic entirely?

Because a base 20% miss chance agains a raid boss is rough considering most classes don't have much room in a build for agi.

[ThorrandWS]

They are if they want to reduce miss. You have to make choices in your gearing now.

And how much agility will might classes have to gimp themselves for? at 65 with no RoI gear I have 449 agility and I don't see that going up much in the future with the new itemization and I'm still missing at an unacceptable level. I can't imagine having the same amount of agi or less at 75. I wouldn't be able to hit the broad side of a barn.

[rwsteve1044]

And how much agility will might classes have to gimp themselves for? at 65 with no RoI gear I have 449 agility and I don't see that going up much in the future with the new itemization and I'm still missing at an unacceptable level. I can't imagine having the same amount of agi or less at 75. I wouldn't be able to hit the broad side of a barn.

Depends on your class. Heavy's and wardens have little to no agi on their new gear..... the misses are bad.

[ThorrandWS]

Depends on your class. Heavy's and wardens have little to no agi on their new gear..... the misses are bad.

Yeah Warden here. Guess I'll just shelve him until there's a resolution.

[Ailedra]

And how much agility will might classes have to gimp themselves for?

Depends on how much they want to reduce their miss chance.

No, I'm not ignoring the part where you said you feel like you don't have enough hit right now, with old gear, just answering the larger question.

You (the royal you) now have a choice to make....do you want to maximize your hits (in which case, you give up as much might as you need to get your miss to a place you're comfortable), or are you willing to miss more in order to hit harder when you do connect?

The balancing might be a bit off, but that's not an unreasonable choice for an MMO player to have to make...more choices in build and gearing is a good thing.

[ThorrandWS]

D
You (the royal you) now have a choice to make.....

Now I know you're trolling. I am all for choices but this was clearly not thought out well enough. And just because you (the royal you :P) are satisfied with that does not mean that players in general have to suffer from half implemented ideas.

Keep the personal attacks on 4chan. be civil or don't respond.

If this is how they meant for it to be, I'm sure I can find something else to do with my sub

[Cadd_EU]

And just because you (the royal you :P) are satisfied with that does not mean that players in general have to suffer from half implemented ideas.

Keep the personal attacks on 4chan. be civil or don't respond.

Um, I think you might have misunderstood Ailedra... I really think that "royal you" comment was not a sarcastic jab, but a clarification that the "you" was a plural "you", i.e. directed at the playerbase at large. Could have been written "Now one has a choice to make..."

[JTollers]

Agility still reduces miss chance the same way it always did. It will be added back to the Agility tooltip in the next update.

There is a base 10% miss chance with 0 Agility.
There is a +3% additional miss chance fighting +1 or +2 level mobs
There is a +10% additional miss chance fighting +3 or +4 level mobs
after +4 levels it gets much worse.

Graal, Is a tier of the Mob treated same a a level in terms of that? Is Signature +1, Elite +2, Elite Master +3 etc?

[Ailedra]

Now I know you're trolling. I am all for choices but this was clearly not thought out well enough. And just because you (the royal you :P) are satisfied with that does not mean that players in general have to suffer from half implemented ideas.

Keep the personal attacks on 4chan. be civil or don't respond.

If this is how they meant for it to be, I'm sure I can find something else to do with my sub

Actually, I was being entirely serious, and there was nothing even a little uncivil about my response. If you can't respond to a difference of opinion without getting defensive, maybe you should stick to 4chan? If you're taking issue with my use of the term "royal you", maybe you should look it up, before deciding it's an attack of some kind; by "royal you", I meant "people plural participating in the discussion." It's a pretty common expression, and in no way an attack.

"Trolling" does not mean "saying things I don't like or don't agree with".

Nowhere did I say I was satisfied with it (I'm actually neutral, depending on how final gearing works once all the intended sets are out), and nowhere did I say YOU needed to be satisfied with it. I actually said the balancing might be off. I simply think that having to give up some amount of hit for some amount of offense (or vice versa) is a reasonable gearing choice to have to make.

[ThorrandWS]

I am familiar the the royal we, but never heard it used in singular as the royal you. I took it to mean that you thought that I treated my opinion as higher than everyone else's. Such is not the case and therefore I got defensive. I am familiar with having to balance stats to find the right build for me, but I do not believe that is what this is an attempt as.

As for waiting for new sets of gear to see how it balances out, I don't intend to be in this predicament until Dec, and if that's the case there's a new game coming out around there I'm kind of curious about

[Ailedra]

I am familiar the the royal we, but never heard it used in singular as the royal you. I took it to mean that you thought that I treated my opinion as higher than everyone else's. Such is not the case and therefore I got defensive. I am familiar with having to balance stats to find the right build for me, but I do not believe that is what this is an attempt as.

As for waiting for new sets of gear to see how it balances out, I don't intend to be in this predicament until Dec, and if that's the case there's a new game coming out around there I'm kind of curious about

Fair enough, but can I recommend not automatically interpreting any unknown term in the worst possible way next time? That is what you'd see on 4chan, and I'm pretty confident we're both on a different forum by choice.

So far as where gearing shakes out, I think it's going to be hard to determine the intent (and the success/failure of that intent) until all the intended gear is out. If there isn't enough agility reasonably available to non-agility classes to reduce miss by an appreciable amount, then it didn't work, and there's a balancing issue they didn't intend.

My gut feeling: people are seeing more misses, doing the human thing, and overstating how bad it is in their own minds, especially while they're in transitional/leveling gear. However, my gut feeling is that Turbine might also have overcompensated for the removal of the stat cap, and/or didn't properly account for the real impact of Finesse, and there'll be some eventual re-tuning of Agility's contribution to hit.

But, without all the gear available, all we've got is gloom and doom (or rose-colored, for the other camp) speculation, and a lot of anecdotal evidence.

You don't sound willing to wait that long, and that's fine; I'm a big advocate of anybody who doesn't like what they see making a consumer's choice and moving on. I just think that the decision would be made based on speculative evidence.

[ThorrandWS]

In my opinion I believe at least one of the issues lies with removing the passive accuracy skills and not compensating for those in any way. As for remembering things wrong, I only started playing seriously about a month and a half ago and it went (quite literally) one day leveling in moria, going offline for the RoI update, logging back onto the same character doing the same quest and it took longer to kill the orcs than it did the day before. Not to mention taking way more damage but I believe that's a different issue entirely.

I was never capped before RoI, I was questing trying to reach it before it came out but I was only 59ish at the time. My issue isn't with Turbine making mistakes, it's with how long it will take them to identify and correct said mistake. Not to mention the fact that they can't upgrade the mail system because it's a different part of turbine that controls that, and they can't fix the chat filter for recipes and skills because that's also not their team?

I love this game, I truly do and believed I had found a new MMO home, but I feel I'm setting myself up for as much disappointment as I received while playing Blizzard's products.

[Darth_Carl]

@Ailedra: Do you frequent the hunter forums at ALL? Hunters there have been doing parses with tools and ultra high Agi hunters and still seeing ecessive misses out of precision stance compared to pre-ROI. With tools giving raw numbers they aren't overestimating things. If toons runnign 1K+ Agi can't get it down below Pr-ROI levels, how do you expect those who don't have Agi as a primary stat to do it.

My guess is that 1XLv is probably equal to about -0.25% Miss chance, but thats more a number pulled out of thin air, albiet loosely based on the fact that we know from hunter Parses that 10 Agi is worth less than -0.1% Miss chance, (the changes from pre ROI is apprently +4% Miss chance).

Can i make a suggestion Turbine? Base the -Miss chance of each classes new primary stat. It avoids this whole Issue : "Agi isn't my primary stat, how am i supposed to get enough?"

It would also enshure everythign remained balanced vis a vis Hunters and Burgs, (wheras any change to AGi -Miss chance contribution would end up favouring them more as they stack more Agi).

[Ailedra]

Seriouslly do you frequent the hunter forums at ALL? Hunters there have been doing parses with tools and ultra high Agi hunters and still seeing ecessive misses out of precision stance compared to pre-ROI. With tools giving raw numbers they aren't overestimating things.

Define "excessive".

If "excessive" means "below the miss benchmark prior to RoI", then ok, I guess you demonstrated that they changed the miss threshold, MAYBE even further than they intended (you DID see where I said "However, my gut feeling is that Turbine might also have overcompensated for the removal of the stat cap, and/or didn't properly account for the real impact of Finesse", right? Or were you being deliberately dense?)

If "excessive" means "more than players wanted to see, even though all the gear we'll have available to us isn't out yet", then we're having the same conversation you wandered into, aren't we?

If it meansIf toons runnign 1K+ Agi can't get it down below Pr-ROI levels, how do you expect those who don't have Agi as a primary stat to do it.

Quick: what's the net DPS difference, in those parses, between the missed shots, and the ones that hit with the extra offense all that Agility gives them?

Can i make a suggestion Turbine? Base the -Miss chance of each classes new primary stat. It avoids this whole Issue : "Agi isn't my primary stat, how am i supposed to get enough?"

That may not be a bad idea.

I dare you to find anyplace I say that the developers didn't maybe overcompensate for Finesse, and maybe didn't balance against the loss of the passives that were eliminated. You won't find it; you'll actually see that I've stated plainly that it's a real possibility.

I'm simply pointing out that:

1) The stated developer intent was that players should and will have more choices to make in gearing
2) Miss vs. offense is a legitimate choice to have to make
3) All the gear that players will have to make those choices is not yet known and represented
4) The majority of the posts in this thread and in this forum have been highly anecdotal, and don't account for the net change in DPS output

You miss more now; that's not a point for debate. Turbine eliminated passives that reduced miss...we could hardly expect differently. What that means for DPS classes in terms of DPS output and viability is not yet known or demonstrated.

[Zvim666]

I think I am about 7% miss rate on my lowbie champion against on-level mobs which seems reasonable.

I think having the accuracy built into agility makes it a boon for agility based dps vs might based dps given there is no real secondary benefit of might for an agility based dps class. For the Hunter might gives physical mitigation, block rating and parry rating. Agility gives melee and ranged offence rating, critical rating, parry, evade and the invisible hit rating.

Might based dps still need agility for critical rating and hit rating which means they can't ignore agility whereas an agility based dps can ignore might.

I am not sure if this is all factored into the stat weighting for agility -> dps boost vs might -> dps boost given, if it is on par then it would seem agility based dps have the advantage of ignoring one stat completely.