Tracking an Old Goat

[PackOfIdiots]

This derail is priceless/classic.

Indeed. On the other hand, what more is there to be said on the original subject?

[GregJL]

This derail is priceless/classic.

Isn't it, though? It may actually be even more interesting than the original post. Of course, what would I know, I'm just an idiot who will probably screw this deed up even though I already know about this problem.

[Ellis]

Those who claim that there's nothing with the quest wrongly assume that those of us who failed to complete the quest either rushed through the quest or are too stupid to follow clear instructions.

To me, the heart of the matter is that the warning message reads, "Advancing this quest will no longer allow you to summon Andreg and will cancel any quests bestowed by him that are underway", when it should have read something like, "You have not yet completed all the quests that can be bestowed by Andreg. Advancing this quest will prevent him from bestowing further quests upon you, and will cancel any quests bestowed by him that are underway".

Changing the text to read that.. that there are things we haven't done.. would have gone a long way to help.

But yeah, there's not much to be said from here about it. It's just one deed, 5 Turbine Points (I think?) and not part of a Meta deed.

[Norowen]

You started off ok but your defense of all things Turbine is getting tiresome. So you really think they should be locked from some content just because they didn't read something?

I read almost everything unless I'm grouped or I've played too long and my eyes are just too tired, regardless I want folks to be able to do everything they want to. I'm not a raider in this game but I don't begrudge raids. (I just don't like crafting or legendaries as part of exclusive raid loot since they have there own extensive leveling systems.) I read the lore, but don't mind if others dont.

Whether you read it all or not - and I do, and did in this instance too - there's just too much unpredictable about the way this quest is implemented.

1. I couldn't tell how many quests were there to be found until I completed one and got the deed to pop up. If I don't choose to, or can't stay around to, complete one of the quests, I haven't any idea how many there are. You MUST complete one and turn it in before the deed shows up. The deed could easily be issued when the quest is first taken.

2. I followed the instructions and STILL couldn't get the traps one to trigger, even though I saw it on the list, saw the traps on the ground, and even stepped in one on purpose thinking that might trigger it. It didn't. The trigger points do not trigger consistently, and to expect that each and every player is going to trigger each and every one in exactly the right order is asking a bit much of the technology. Some players are going to miss trigger points, and that should be taken into consideration in the design of the quest.

3. Andreg ran off several times - behind me - resetting his track I believe. One time he aggro'd 3 mobs in the process. That was almost more than we together could handle, but we did manage to do it. Another time he did this, I didn't notice, and since there's no icon on the radar for him, had zero clue where in the heck he had gone. I had to wait, in combat mode, for him to either show up with his mobs or let him die, not knowing if that would kill my quest chances or not. He must have died because I finally fell out of combat and he did not come back. Nothing bad happened, I just summoned him again, but I didn't know that until it was over and I was worried the whole time. All quest NPCs need to be represented on the radar with the quest NPC icon.

4. I "accidentally" triggered the ONE quest that ends the chain. It doesn't trigger an end when all the quests are completed, it triggers the end when you hit THE quest that triggers the end. So now Andreg is following me with a bright gold ring, and I can no longer tell in any way when I've triggered one of my missing quests - I had to keep talking to him over and over again just to see if he opened a quest. At that one trigger point he thinks the quest is over, and that's that. The only redeeming value of him having a gold ring is that he shows up on the radar. Something needs to be done to keep Andreg from having that gold completion ring when the player chooses not to end the quest.

5. As far as I could tell, Andreg won't aggro onto the mob you're fighting until the mob is on top of you unless the mob is an archer. He will go attack a ranged mob, but won't go attack anything else until it gets to you, even if the little aggro icon goes off over his head. There's no reason he can't be set to run to a mob that you're fighting at range, especially since he's aware that it's been aggro'd.

I managed to complete this series, but I can see how many others wouldn't. That gold ring is pretty dang convincing no matter what the text says. But I have to say that it wasn't fun, it was a chore trying to figure out what the right keys were to make it work.

All in all, this could have been a really fun quest. I wanted it to be, I'm sure it was designed to be. And I honestly applaud the diversity and creativity of it. But no matter what the developers say or have said, this quest series has issues. To deny that it does only infuriates the player base who have struggled through those issues, some of whom have come up short.

[Hurin]

Changing the text to read that.. that there are things we haven't done.. would have gone a long way to help.

Ironically, this is exactly the reason --with the best of intentions-- that Berephon added the deed. He was trying to help us not miss quests. It was intended to give those aware of its purpose some idea that they have found all the quests and can now safely move on and dismiss Andreg. I suspect the deed was used instead of text within the quest because the deed didn't require a widget to be coded that would dynamically update the quest text according to your current progress within the quest line. But of course, since it's not clear to those without prior knowledge of this issue what the deed's purpose truly is (a "checklist" for Andreg's hidden quests), many people assume the quests listed on it will be bestowed later by others and feel safe in dismissing Andreg so long as they have heeded the letter of his warning (that "underway" quests will be cancelled).

I do seem to recall other quests in the game that are essentially "container quests" directing you to finish several other lesser quests before turning in the "container" one. Assuming there's no other factors of which I'm unaware, it seems that such a "container" quest would have been the better choice to use in some fashion here vs a deed.

Best,

H

[Dartanyen]

Back to the non responding dev's is anything going to be done to amend the Tracking an Old Goat deed so people can complete it.

Yes or No answer is what is needed.

[Lohi]

To me, the heart of the matter is that the warning message reads,

Even then I don't think this is the true problem. Some players just don't read the text, or they accidentally hit "continue" because there's not "cancel" button. The problem I think is that you can't re-acquire the quests later.

If you make it so that you can not continue without all quests it will seriously annoy many players who just want to get on with the game (and this does gate later quests in the region).

The same style of quest was used in the Evendim revamp. It has some pluses and minuses.

I think we can solve this problem in Gravenwood by borrowing/tweaking from Evendim. Keep quests in a chain because I like that idea (I know that others do not though). But allow us to reacquire him from the main quest hub after the story quest lines are over. I don't remember if Andreg dies or not at the moment, but lets say he's just badly injured and when the story line is over he's back at rohirrim camp recovering. Then you can talk to him and get a copy of his whistle again. Then get rid of the deed too! Once you have the ability to reacquire the quests you no longer need the deed.

[whheydt]

If you make it so that you can not continue without all quests it will seriously annoy many players who just want to get on with the game (and this does gate later quests in the region).

Say what? None of Andreg's discoverable quests gate anything else. They aren't even needed to complete the zone quest deed.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[Morbeleg]

Just so everybody knows, this does NOT always work. I have completed "Dark and Lonely Forest" and "Eyes in the forest" but none in the middle. I found out about this permanent-fail situation too late. I just spent over an hour waiting for someobdy to show up at the quest-start campsite and finally got somebody to try to help me get it done. However, I didn't get new quest rings from Andreg, and they couldn't share the quests, as I was "ineligible".

So ya, now I get a wonderfully permanent monument to turbine's poor quest design and dismissive customer service in my deed log.

To my chagrin I found last night that my main is permanently shut off from that deed just like you.
Handing in the wrapper quest ends any chance to get the quest from other's Andreg.
Seem the way it can work is if you didnt turn in that last quest.

[WhimsicalPacifist]

To my chagrin I found last night that my main is permanently shut off from that deed just like you.
Handing in the wrapper quest ends any chance to get the quest from other's Andreg.
Seem the way it can work is if you didnt turn in that last quest.

That much was apparent to me, what was less clear was that it was a freaking multi-stage quest. I had thought that it was a separate quest that was constantly popping up Andreg's head as I ran thru Gravenwood ala Benny Hill. I'd thought that it was talking to Saraedin that was the cutoff- I could cancel the quest/keep it in limbo and find the final cue for the deed.

Simple fix- make the quest cancelable/repeatable/daily sort of scouting thing. In retrospect the NPC quest giver concept is quite novel, but it also needs to be thought of from the perspective of a gamer. If a gamer sees the words NPC, travel, journey or dangerous in their cursory quest objective scan they will immediately think escort quest. Escort quests are the quintessential PITA bread and butter of RPG's and anyone with years of experience will try and do anything to make it easier. In my case I did the logical thing, rode to the scouting site, summoned the escort and rode to the Rohirrim camp.

[ararax2]

@ararax2

That gets back to understanding what makes a pattern the best pattern. You're looking for things that are unlikely to happen by chance in any set of words, but rather indicate a designed list. Things dealing with letter count or simple presence are weak. That class of pattern will emerge in any list. I'd also argue that 1) doggerel can be a physical object, although it need not be and 2) that is still less unusual than the pattern regarded as correct on the test. It is, however, a better pattern than that found by the original poster. Part of taking tests is understanding the intent of the test designers.

Well I would think that Doggerel is a Noun as Poem is a Noun, it is not the physical object of ink and paper, but a non physical thing.

I just happened to think that animal names in the words is the utmost in lazy for designing a test. The problem with word association, is that finding the most common answer is not helpful in many cases, usually in the workforce finding a non common answer is more important, so we are teaching children to look for the most obvious answer and really crippling their critical thinking.

Aka this is why I like math. To use your mind to figure out the nature and order of the universe, rather then what some moron with a English dregree was thinking when he came up with the test.

To me true order is found in patterns of use, not random.

The fact that animal names that are un related happen to appear in the words, when the root word has nothing to do with the animal itself is statistical noise, not a pattern. Coworker, has no root in cow, there is nothing other then random chance that Cow appears in Coworker. To me this is not a pattern but random noise that has no outside use.

[Trilwych]

Whoa, where did the thread run off to?

Aka this is why I like math. To use your mind to figure out the nature and order of the universe, rather then what some moron with a English dregree was thinking when he came up with the test.

I'll actually just pull your statement out for a moment. In my first post, I described how human communication works between transmission and interpretation. Exams are a perfect example rife with communication failures due to poorly worded questions that obstruct the true intent of an exam--the intent of an academic examination is to measure what the student knows (whether by critical thinking or learning). But I can't tell you how many poorly worded math/physics/etc. questions I've seen that were written by university research professors with bad communication skills. In some but not all cases, when enough students misinterpret an exam question the same way, I've seen professors give in and give partial credit; but it's telling when a professor is so egotistical and dismissive of language skills that he fails to recognize that his own wording set up students to fail, missing the examination intent.

To craft instructional text with clarity is actually both an art and science; it's much easier than one thinks to convert text intended to guide into text that actually obstructs. The vice-versa can be true as well.

The parallel to quest text is clear in this particular circumstance: The intention of LotRO quest text is twofold--to tell a story and to guide (objective -> reward). I think Turbine has the former part down pat. For the most part, the latter intent is also realized most of the time, though I think the quest tracker itself actually confuses some people (e.g. underground rings, different direction from the text, etc.). The "Tracking an Old Goat" deed/quest chain text has proven in this and related threads alone by the attention garnered that there are very real issues with the execution of the guiding text, quest behavior, and UI bit.

[whheydt]

I'll actually just pull your statement out for a moment. In my first post, I described how human communication works between transmission and interpretation.

While we're pulling statements out to make germane comments (which you did, by the way).... Robert A. Heinlein once described a class he was required to take at the US Naval Academy on Order Writing.

A student would be given the information on which to base a written order. Once written, the entire class was challenged to find ways that the order--as written--could be misinterpreted. If the class could find a way to misinterpret the order, the student writing got an F for the day. If class *couldn't* find a way to misconstrue the order, he got an A.

Now, rather clearly, constructing quest text for LoTRO doesn't rise to level required by that class, not can the results be nearly as devastating under the wrong circumstances, but the principles are the same.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[Bicyclerepairman]

This is so messed up. I missed it on my main since I never got the Hunting q. I have two other 75 who still have the whistle, since none of them have gotten all quests (they lack different ones mind you) and today I run alt 4 and got all quests and the deed within 30 minutes despite going to the same places. Horrible horrible deed.

[ararax2]

Whoa, where did the thread run off to?



I'll actually just pull your statement out for a moment. In my first post, I described how human communication works between transmission and interpretation. Exams are a perfect example rife with communication failures due to poorly worded questions that obstruct the true intent of an exam--the intent of an academic examination is to measure what the student knows (whether by critical thinking or learning). But I can't tell you how many poorly worded math/physics/etc. questions I've seen that were written by university research professors with bad communication skills. In some but not all cases, when enough students misinterpret an exam question the same way, I've seen professors give in and give partial credit; but it's telling when a professor is so egotistical and dismissive of language skills that he fails to recognize that his own wording set up students to fail, missing the examination intent.

Agreed, the only fault in such a situation is to assume there is no fault, and refuse to react to such.
But I also can not stand professors who use multiple choice.
Things will get garbled, multiple choice prevents the professor from noticing if the student is wrong, or pursuing a valid line of reasoning.

[lousnellaf]

Well I have been running around for over an hour looking for the area where the hunting the hounds quest starts. If anyone knows can you post it. I have even been around the named hound and clicked on the ranger like every 5 steps with no luck.

[Hrodberht]

While we're pulling statements out to make germane comments (which you did, by the way).... Robert A. Heinlein once described a class he was required to take at the US Naval Academy on Order Writing.

A student would be given the information on which to base a written order. Once written, the entire class was challenged to find ways that the order--as written--could be misinterpreted. If the class could find a way to misinterpret the order, the student writing got an F for the day. If class *couldn't* find a way to misconstrue the order, he got an A.

Now, rather clearly, constructing quest text for LoTRO doesn't rise to level required by that class, not can the results be nearly as devastating under the wrong circumstances, but the principles are the same.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

That reminds me of this quick "test" of confidence in a statement. Person A makes statement. Person A is asked "Are you positive that you are correct?" Person A replies "Absolutely". Person A is then asked "May I shoot you if you are wrong?" Person A replies "Of course not!". "Then you aren't that positive, are you?"

[whheydt]

That reminds me of this quick "test" of confidence in a statement. Person A makes statement. Person A is asked "Are you positive that you are correct?" Person A replies "Absolutely". Person A is then asked "May I shoot you if you are wrong?" Person A replies "Of course not!". "Then you aren't that positive, are you?"

Good one. At some risk of straying over the line of what topics are permitted... If someone tells you the world will end on a given date, ask them if they will deed over their house, car(s), and bank accounts to you effective the day after the world is supposed to end...

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

[Trilwych]

For anyone else trying to find information, here's quick collection of useful points buried in this uber-thread.

Summary:

The basic tips are to start the quest as soon as you get the whistle, don't mount up, follow the quest tracker ring on your minimap for Andreg's quests in a bee-line (but if that fails, try to find the coordinates, and run around A LOT). Check your deed log and add Andreg's deed to the quest tracker if you have deed-to-tracker disabled like I do.

If you get the single "continue" button with red warning text, hit ESC or close the window manually; if you do accidentally click "continue," don't turn in the quests--you can still pick up missing quests from someone else's Andreg. Andreg's quests do not affect the Gravenwood quest deed or other tied #/# quest deeds.

Also, this is "WAI" the same way the 4th Anniversary was "WAI"--poorly implemented without taking into account player behaviors and diverse ways of playing (nearly all properly reading the quest text, to boot); at least the 4th Anniv was "fixed" with a ton of lotteries. Neat idea for a quest chain, but needs to be tweaked.

Manually running around with Andreg stuck on the "continue" quest problem

just found Cruel Traps at 81.6s, 12.0w

edit: and Hunting the Pack at 83.0s, 13.8w

edit: got deed

2 more

Orc Mischief 81.6s, 12.4w

Lost Caws 82.8s, 13.9w

Just so you all know, it is possible to finish the Gravenwood quest deed w/o finishing Andreg, I just handed in Bearer of Ill News and popped the deed from 26/27 to 27/27.

OK I started this quest in Amlangs camp.
Once he gave me the quest I immediately used the whistle to call Andreg.
As soon as he appeared he had a quest ring above his head.

Location 83.1s, 14.6w (1) Grave Corruption & (2) Eyes in the Forest (bestowed in Amlangs camp)

Location 83.0s, 13.1w (3) Lost Caws

Location 83.0s, 13.8w (4) Hunting the Pack

Location 81.9s, 12.3w (5) Cruel Traps

Location 81.9s, 12.3w (6) Orc Mischief

7th quest location is for Scouting the Path and I forgot to write down the location when I got it bestowed.
One thing to note is that the location that completes the Scouting the Path quest has a named hound nearby that drops a quest bestowal item when you kill the Hound. Quest can be turned in to Saeradan at the rangers camp.

(snip)

A little tip for those of you who pressed continue quest, but didn't hand the final one in yet.

I read all the quests on my main character, I really do enjoy the stories, especially in Isengard. But english is my 3rd language , so I misunderstood the phrase: "Warning, if you advance this quest...". I thought it meant: if you complete this quest, but, obviously now, it does not.

So I stumbled upon this thread and went to the location of the hounds. When some guy with his andreg passed me, I noticed the ring above him. I could pick up the quest. So I had a quick chat with the guy and we went to the trap place and I could pick up that quest too. After completing it, I could hand it in at his guard, and managed to finish the deed.

So all you need is a friendly passenger, one who is about to receive superior tools of the woodsman

PS: I doubt you can still do this if you handed in the darkness quest already. It does work if you only pressed continue, cause the quests don't cancel yet. Only andreg disappears.

(snipped)
What none of you seem to have said in the first 12-13 pages of this thread is the name of the quest you SHOULD NOT TURN IN until you have the others for the deed. That quest is Eyes in the Forest. This is the one that will dismiss Andreg.

(Red emphasis mine)

[GodzillaX8]

So, no mention of a fix for this at all in the new patch notes.

It's pretty safe to say that Turbine absolutely does not care what players think.

Keep fighting the good fight, Turbine. Maybe one day these pesky customer people will leave you alone, to make all the horrible decisions you want, and stop spending their money on your games.



Edit:
I just wanted to say that this post earlier in the thread is possibly the best post in the thread:

This thread captures in a nutshell one of Turbine's greatest weaknesses as a company. It's the same weakness that kept radiance around for so long.

When customers overwhelmingly express that they don't like a feature, most companies attempt to address that by adjusting the feature, or removing it. Turbine however become overly defensive, digs in, and tries to tell customers why they SHOULD like the feature, and becomes insulting, condescending or hostile when that inevitably doesn't work.

Marketing aside, you don't get to tell customers what they're supposed to want. That's not how it works.

[Gandie2]

Just look at it as a gotcha quest. If you one of the people that just mounts up and rides to the next ring you miss out.

Need to walk with Andreg killing stuff along the way. Its that simple.

He is a boon companion. Take your time and enjoy it. Unlike our skirm soldiers who are worthless this guy rocks. Get a group six and you could do this 5 levels to low. Andreg is quest level not yours. Have six people at lvl 66 doing this and you have six lvl 71 NPC's kicking tail as you walk along.

Stay and farm the moment.

[Gandie2]

you can still pick up missing quests from someone else's Andreg

If this is true it is a recent change, the change that many have been asking for.

Thankfully I did not miss out on any of the quests. But I did try and let a kinnie do as you are saying when I went through with my second toon. He could not get the quests at that time.

[ararax2]

If this is true it is a recent change, the change that many have been asking for.

Thankfully I did not miss out on any of the quests. But I did try and let a kinnie do as you are saying when I went through with my second toon. He could not get the quests at that time.

Agreed, this is great if they now allow you to grab it from another Andreg. Also making it shareable would be awesome.

[Scirocco]

Agreed, this is great if they now allow you to grab it from another Andreg. Also making it shareable would be awesome.

Sorry, but it's not true.

A few days ago, I hooked up with two individuals who had not yet done any part of the quest. I was in the fellowship, and with them from the very beginning, when they got their whistles, summoned their two Andregs, and started the series. I followed them all the way through all 7 quests for the deed. At the proper points, they were able to get the quests, but I was not. Their Andregs totally ignored me. They tried to share the quests, but were told I was ineligible.

Disappointing. If anyone claims to be able to do this, then please be very, very specific about how you were able to do so, what your level was, what the state of your own quest line is, etc. If this works, I suspect it is limited to those who have hit continue, but did not turn in the final item.

[RicardoFurriel]

Finally a reward for those who read the quest log...

Oh wait...

35 pages long. What is so hard about doing something about it? Does it cost too much to fix? Then say it already. Pretending that's all good in the 'hood it's not the right approach with adults. May work with 5 year olds though.

Cheers