Calming verse duration

[Zombie_Columbus]

As mentioned by other people in this thread, try to think of the new Calming Verse as a fully different skill with different ways to use it optimally. While the old skill needed to be used every time it was off cooldown and was a hefty source of optimal dps/hps, the new skill has internal tensions built in to make it a good choice at the correct time, not all the time. Dps/hps of the class, when fully traited out, should be as high or higher then it was before. The "loss" of Calming Verse should ideally feel more liberating then anything.

Consider:
Do I pop CV before I use a big EC, or wait to see if it pulls aggro?
Do I pop CV before using "That Which does Not Kill Us" for the power cost reduction, or save it in case I pull aggro?
Do I pop it while moving to a new place to stand and heal to use a few MV's on the move, or do I save it in case I pull aggro later?
Is the attunement reduction worth the benefits at this point in the fight?
Etc.

[Nathandir]

As mentioned by other people in this thread, try to think of the new Calming Verse as a fully different skill with different ways to use it optimally. While the old skill needed to be used every time it was off cooldown and was a hefty source of optimal dps/hps, the new skill has internal tensions built in to make it a good choice at the correct time, not all the time. Dps/hps of the class, when fully traited out, should be as high or higher then it was before. The "loss" of Calming Verse should ideally feel more liberating then anything.

Consider:
Do I pop CV before I use a big EC, or wait to see if it pulls aggro?
Do I pop CV before using "That Which does Not Kill Us" for the power cost reduction, or save it in case I pull aggro?
Do I pop it while moving to a new place to stand and heal to use a few MV's on the move, or do I save it in case I pull aggro later?
Is the attunement reduction worth the benefits at this point in the fight?
Etc.

Agree with you. Its nice to have an Oh **** skill
Also I was wondering Zombie, could you maybe remove the damage knockback for Rousing Words?
Because its really annoying when you are trying to use it to heal, and some mob comes over and whacks you, screwing the whole skill. The "No threat Generated" for it is useless in the moors also.

[utlotro]

Agree with you. Its nice to have an Oh **** skill

Except if -25% temporary threat saves you, you would have never pulled aggro to begin with on live due to being down 25% (healing traited) already, or 20% dps traited.

Yes, I totally agree that the new CV is a much more fun, active, ability, but is there any overall gain if the loss of near passive threat reduction causes us to stand around twiddling our thumbs doing nothing waiting for tank threat instead?

[viper0889]

Agree with you. Its nice to have an Oh **** skill
Also I was wondering Zombie, could you maybe remove the damage knockback for Rousing Words?
Because its really annoying when you are trying to use it to heal, and some mob comes over and whacks you, screwing the whole skill. The "No threat Generated" for it is useless in the moors also.

Fates Entwined ftw. No knockback on inductions and the 5 set healing bonus from ToO gear is epic with Fates Entwined.

And ZC I currently extremely happy with the changes, sounds amazing. Affinity changes seems sketchy but like you said its just something we will have to adapt to using. One issue is how do we change affinity when out of combat? Fire damage protection is crucial in the moors and I don't know how I'll be able to have fire affinity up at all times while traiting lightning. Seems a bit extreme to try to kill something with a fire skill at the end to be able to put up Do Not Fall to Fire for pre-combat later.

[choon_blaze]

As mentioned by other people in this thread, try to think of the new Calming Verse as a fully different skill with different ways to use it optimally. While the old skill needed to be used every time it was off cooldown and was a hefty source of optimal dps/hps, the new skill has internal tensions built in to make it a good choice at the correct time, not all the time. Dps/hps of the class, when fully traited out, should be as high or higher then it was before. The "loss" of Calming Verse should ideally feel more liberating then anything.

Consider:
Do I pop CV before I use a big EC, or wait to see if it pulls aggro?
Do I pop CV before using "That Which does Not Kill Us" for the power cost reduction, or save it in case I pull aggro?
Do I pop it while moving to a new place to stand and heal to use a few MV's on the move, or do I save it in case I pull aggro later?
Is the attunement reduction worth the benefits at this point in the fight?
Etc.

Sorry.Not buying it.This is not better than it is now.Too many unnecessary changes.All I'm seeing is RK gets worse and worse with every update.RK lightning was so nerfed after Isengard that I stopped playing for a month.The only thing I like is the run speed buff it gives but only 10 sec ? And you wait for a minute to use it again.Minstrel has a run speed buff for 10 sec.Does that work if you get aggro or trying to run away in ettens ? 10 second is nothing.And I don't understand why rk is still a premium class.Not the best dps,not the best healer.No survival skills.Power consumption issues (with this update).Light armour without solid threat management.I used to love my rk more than anything.That's why I'm always complaining.That's what players do.Your favourite class gets worse and worse over time.You gotta say something.

[Ghosttaker]

Fates Entwined ftw. No knockback on inductions and the 5 set healing bonus from ToO gear is epic with Fates Entwined.

And ZC I currently extremely happy with the changes, sounds amazing. Affinity changes seems sketchy but like you said its just something we will have to adapt to using. One issue is how do we change affinity when out of combat? Fire damage protection is crucial in the moors and I don't know how I'll be able to have fire affinity up at all times while traiting lightning. Seems a bit extreme to try to kill something with a fire skill at the end to be able to put up Do Not Fall to Fire for pre-combat later.

Carli you are one of the only other RKs that has brought this up. I would have said it exctly as you did. I think solo RKs in the moors are such a small percentage of the player base, and then it's an even smaller segment of the creep population that this really effects us against. It's not changing.

Instant writs and free writs are going to be our friend out there, maybe a stun, CV for run buff, WoF, and a quick DNFtF, dunno how it's all going to work out, surviving that inital burst is going to be key, especially the charging reaver, maybe we'll just have to make sure we always fire first . Going to be tricky either way. And yeah, BAs at range, uggh.

How often do we get to square up for the 1v1 you know is coming. Almost always getting jumped or plinked from behind anyway and they wait till it's down in that case. Gonna be a big change against those 2.

[Crell_1]

I'd really prefer some non-combat-starting methods of changing to each of the various affinities. ; every time I'm starting a combat I like to have the right preventatives up, but also I know that T2, the longer I spend attuning, the worse things are, I can't just afford to switch at the start of a pull.

[Ryssadis]

As mentioned by other people in this thread, try to think of the new Calming Verse as a fully different skill with different ways to use it optimally. While the old skill needed to be used every time it was off cooldown and was a hefty source of optimal dps/hps, the new skill has internal tensions built in to make it a good choice at the correct time, not all the time. Dps/hps of the class, when fully traited out, should be as high or higher then it was before. The "loss" of Calming Verse should ideally feel more liberating then anything.

Consider:
Do I pop CV before I use a big EC, or wait to see if it pulls aggro?
Do I pop CV before using "That Which does Not Kill Us" for the power cost reduction, or save it in case I pull aggro?
Do I pop it while moving to a new place to stand and heal to use a few MV's on the move, or do I save it in case I pull aggro later?
Is the attunement reduction worth the benefits at this point in the fight?
Etc.

I agree. This would have been soooo handy in say, OD Fear Wing with the Balrog. It also will be handy in lightening wing ToO... and Saruman, and really any instance where you have to keep moving. One of the bigger challenges in learning new raids is groups learning how to move and position -- so some groups tend to move A LOT when in that learning period. With essentially 1 true heal-on-the-run skill you either choose between lagging behind the group to keep sufficient heals on the tank or not getting enough heals on the tank. This is gonna make it a lot more seamless.

And the question of Do I Pop it before or wait and see if I pull aggro... well the answer IMO should be -- if you think you're gonna pull aggro pop it before. No need to risk getting smacked in the face. lol.

[Nakiami]

For all OP's inability to format his complaints well, he has a point I'm still not clear on.

How is this change not severely affecting an RK's ability to not draw aggro? If the answer is "you just have to damage/heal less" that's not going to work.

Post #2 alluded to "25% reduction in perceived threat" as an immediate reduction of your threat on the threat table (say 1000 to 750), as opposed to the current behavior which is "healing / damage done generates less threat while the skill is active" (say 1000+80 instead of 1000+100 without CV). Is that right?

[Ellery01]

Lets take 2 situations that should help clearly explain how perceived threat works and how this change to CV will play out if not changed:

RK does 10 1k hits over 20 seconds. In the first situation, you use CV before you start doing damage. In the second situation, you use it 10 seconds in.

Current Calming Verse (-20% threat generated, 1m duration), Situation 1:
1k (800 threat)
1k (1600 threat)
1k (2400 threat)
1k (3200 threat)
...
1k (8000 threat)

Situation 2:
1k (1k threat)
1k (2k threat)
1k (3k threat)
1k (4k threat)
1k (5k threat)
CV used
1k (5800 threat)
1k (6600 threat)
1k (7400 threat)
1k (8200 threat)
1k (9000 threat)

Now let's compare to the way calming verse is currently being implemented on BR (-25% perceived threat for 10s):
Situation 1, CV used before doing damage:
1k (750 perceived threat)
1k (1500 perceived threat)
1k (2250 perceived threat)
1k (3000 perceived threat)
1k (3750 perceived threat)
CV buff drops
1k (6000 threat)
1k (7000 threat)
1k (8000 threat)
1k (9000 threat)
1k (10000 threat)

Situation 2, CV used 10s in:
1k (1000 threat)
1k (2000 threat)
1k (3000 threat)
1k (4000 threat)
1k (5000 threat)
CV used
1k (4500 perceived threat)
1k (5250 perceived threat)
1k (6000 perceived threat)
1k (6750 perceived threat)
1k (7500 perceived threat)
Immediately after this duration, you're back at 10k threat.

This is VERY CLEARLY a nerf to our aggro management. Anyone who follows our forums knows I'm not one to appeal to emotional arguments either way, but this is something I really would like ZC to address. We're still the squishiest class around, taking away a permanent 20% aggro management really should be addressed. If all you did was post to say that you're aware you've taken this away and that's how you'd like RKs to be moving forward, okay then I guess. I'm just hoping this is an oversight. :P

[Fasin]

How is this change not severely affecting an RK's ability to not draw aggro? If the answer is "you just have to damage/heal less" that's not going to work.

This. We need something to replace the -20% threat generation we previously had from Calming Verse.

[TinDragon]

Sorry.Not buying it.This is not better than it is now.Too many unnecessary changes.All I'm seeing is RK gets worse and worse with every update.RK lightning was so nerfed after Isengard that I stopped playing for a month.The only thing I like is the run speed buff it gives but only 10 sec ? And you wait for a minute to use it again.Minstrel has a run speed buff for 10 sec.Does that work if you get aggro or trying to run away in ettens ? 10 second is nothing.And I don't understand why rk is still a premium class.Not the best dps,not the best healer.No survival skills.Power consumption issues (with this update).Light armour without solid threat management.I used to love my rk more than anything.That's why I'm always complaining.That's what players do.Your favourite class gets worse and worse over time.You gotta say something.

I realize this is kind of off-topic, but every single one of your posts in the forums was a negative post. Do you come here just to troll people, or do you really just see the bad side of everything? Either way there doesn't seem to be a point to hold a conversation with you about this as you're just going to say "No, this is bad" no matter what. At least the other ones who don't like this change put forth their arguments in a concise manner and seem willing to listen to other opinions.

ZC, on the subject of affinity... I know you said you made the change to this as opposed to consumables to take up less inventory... but can we get some kind of consumable/perma-clickie to change affinity in addition to the affinity changing based on the last skill?

[choon_blaze]

I'm not trolling.I'm negative because a good skill is getting nerfed.I'm posting to forum when I see something wrong,that's usually negative.I'm not gonna say 'hey thanks for the nerf,well done'.Anyways I hope my negative comments won't cause rk to be nerfed even more I just don't know how to cheerfully say 'Do not nerf rk anymore !!'

[Zombie_Columbus]

Let's say the RK puts out 100 dps the way he is now, before Update 6. This dps is achieve ONLY by clicking CV every 1:00 and requiring the linod traits to be slotted.
Then lets say after Update 6 he still puts out 100 dps with the various changes that he's received. In addition, the CV is instead used as an aggro drop/power reducer/trait specific ultility once a minute. And the two linod traits have different bonuses on them.

Would it then be fair to say that CV has been nerfed? Yes. The skill is clearly weaker.
Do I claim the the class is more potent then before? Yes. DPS is preserved and extra utility is gained.
Do I also claim that a 25% threat drop once a minute will help RK's out more then a flat threat reduction? Again, yes.

So, do I think I nerfed the RK? Not at all.

Draw you own conclusions. Play with the class. I hope I'm right. I hope it's much more fun

[Ellery01]

I definitely agree you've made the RK more potent and honestly I'm so flippin excited about U6 I don't even know how to express it without sounding like a flaming fanboy.

That said, I disagree with you that 10s of 25% reduced threat is going to be more useful for RKs than a permanent 20% reduction to generated threat. I am aware that the change to CV (and thus the way we trait) is more meaningful than 10s of 25% reduced perceived threat, and couldn't provide an objective opinion of whether pre U6 CV is better than post U6 CV. However, if all you take into consideration is the difference in how RKs will manage aggro pre and post U6, I'd much much much prefer the pre U6 permanent threat reduction than temporary threat drop of post U6. I also don't really know how much you changed the magnitude of the threat drop from distracting winds, though I know it's pitiful on live right now.

For what it's worth though, I hope you're right too

[viper0889]

Carli you are one of the only other RKs that has brought this up. I would have said it exctly as you did. I think solo RKs in the moors are such a small percentage of the player base, and then it's an even smaller segment of the creep population that this really effects us against. It's not changing.

Instant writs and free writs are going to be our friend out there, maybe a stun, CV for run buff, WoF, and a quick DNFtF, dunno how it's all going to work out, surviving that inital burst is going to be key, especially the charging reaver, maybe we'll just have to make sure we always fire first . Going to be tricky either way. And yeah, BAs at range, uggh.

How often do we get to square up for the 1v1 you know is coming. Almost always getting jumped or plinked from behind anyway and they wait till it's down in that case. Gonna be a big change against those 2.

Lets look at what DNFtF is good against in the moors. Defilers, BAs, Reavers, Oil at keep entrances. Fire protection is so important in the moors. DNFtF adds a significant amount of survivability out there and without a reliable way to have this buff on myself I will feel much more vulnerable. Absorbing an entire VT initial damage or reaver ravage and added mitigation buff...

Also, you ask how often do you get to square up for a 1v1. RM has many 1v1 circles. Against a good reaver or BA DNFtf is win or lose. Even for PVE content dpsing I'd much rather have a way to pick my DNFtX out of combat. I don't like the idea of being forced to put as much or more effort into buffs and protections when I thought part of this update was to make quality of life changes. Aka Blade Will not Wound/Fang Will not Poison wrapped into one.

Anyways, Im barking up the wrong thread with the affinity stuff and talking about the moors which is appearantly a no no when talking about changes for pve-based game.

[utlotro]

Which type of threat management tool is more useful is completely dependent on what amount of threat tanks are capable of generating.

A hypothetical RK does 100 dps. That is 80 tps (threat per sec) on live and 100 tps in U6.

If tanks do a hypothetical 150 tps, then the passive live reduction isn't really doing anything, and the extra emergency tool + utility will be much more useful.

However lets say the tank can only output 85 tps. The RK on live could keep doing his 100 dps but in U6 it would be impossible.

[Ciubakka]

But CV is not an aggro drop, it just lowers threat generated by skills in those 10 seconds, so you have 10s of less aggro but after CV goes away you have roughly the same amount of threat.

[Ellery01]

There still seems to be some confusion on how perceived threat works. If you've built up 20k worth of damage threat then pop CV, you will be on the target's aggro table as if you'd done 15k damage worth of threat. Any damage you do during the 10s will still add to your threat, but will be modified by that 25% for the 10s duration of CV. Once the 10s has passed, you will be back to 20k + the full amount of any damage you did during CV.

To put it even more simply, all CV will do is reduce your perceived threat for 10s (just like it says, funny huh :P). Once the 10s is up, it will be as if you never used any kind of aggro management skill in the first place, assuming you did nothing else to reduce aggro (distracting winds, mystifying flame, die, etc).

[Thorgrum]

There still seems to be some confusion on how perceived threat works. If you've built up 20k worth of damage threat then pop CV, you will be on the target's aggro table as if you'd done 15k damage worth of threat. Any damage you do during the 10s will still add to your threat, but will be modified by that 25% for the 10s duration of CV. Once the 10s has passed, you will be back to 20k + the full amount of any damage you did during CV.

To put it even more simply, all CV will do is reduce your perceived threat for 10s (just like it says, funny huh :P). Once the 10s is up, it will be as if you never used any kind of aggro management skill in the first place, assuming you did nothing else to reduce aggro (distracting winds, mystifying flame, die, etc).

thats pretty much how I understand it too. The important thing you left out though is application, you apply this reduction in the hopes that the tank or someone else will supplant you on the threat list. This goes for healing too, as its just as threatening to mobs. So yes its a temp reduction, the hope is that someone else becomes more threatening within the 10s

[Ghosttaker]

Lets look at what DNFtF is good against in the moors. Defilers, BAs, Reavers, Oil at keep entrances. Fire protection is so important in the moors. DNFtF adds a significant amount of survivability out there and without a reliable way to have this buff on myself I will feel much more vulnerable. Absorbing an entire VT initial damage or reaver ravage and added mitigation buff...

Also, you ask how often do you get to square up for a 1v1. RM has many 1v1 circles. Against a good reaver or BA DNFtf is win or lose. Even for PVE content dpsing I'd much rather have a way to pick my DNFtX out of combat. I don't like the idea of being forced to put as much or more effort into buffs and protections when I thought part of this update was to make quality of life changes. Aka Blade Will not Wound/Fang Will not Poison wrapped into one.

Anyways, Im barking up the wrong thread with the affinity stuff and talking about the moors which is appearantly a no no when talking about changes for pve-based game.

Caril I am with you on the moors implications, 100%. On your server that's awesome, Silverlode pvp is not that way, the server has been decimated by transfers, hardly ever any 1v1 circles. Maybe I'm just trying to make myself feel better about it but also I'm looking at the bright side of some of the survivability stuff. But I am on the same page as you. I just don't see alot of other RKs out there in the moors who do like to run around solo. I do, all the time, and the first thought I had when I saw the affinity change was omg we're sc%^&ed against BAs and Reavers in solo fights. Also why I made the comment maybe we always have to be the ones to fire first, WoF and a quick DNF before the reaver can get to you, I don't know. Definitely going to change how we fight out there.

[loki84]

Zombie please respond,

many rk's, myself included, feel that we are gonna struggle in the moors with many of these changes, I like many rk's like to try to solo, but honestly, it's not doable anymore, not with bought skills (which i don't think you have any control over) please, can you give us a moors skill, a skill designed soley for the moors. brands have changed to include slow prevention as i'm sure you're aware and bought in-combat brands just destroy us. I never see Malarick soloing out there anymore, not on his RK...... in fact, i think i'm the last dogged RK soloer on brandywine now...... we have fallen so far.
would you consider a skill for RK's, a moors skill, something to make the creeps stop making crude jokes about our class?

[Chris91]

Zombie please respond,

many rk's, myself included, feel that we are gonna struggle in the moors with many of these changes, I like many rk's like to try to solo, but honestly, it's not doable anymore, not with bought skills (which i don't think you have any control over) please, can you give us a moors skill, a skill designed soley for the moors. brands have changed to include slow prevention as i'm sure you're aware and bought in-combat brands just destroy us. I never see Malarick soloing out there anymore, not on his RK...... in fact, i think i'm the last dogged RK soloer on brandywine now...... we have fallen so far.
would you consider a skill for RK's, a moors skill, something to make the creeps stop making crude jokes about our class?

It´s true, CC has been made nearly useless with Audacity and Store Brands

However Zombie has given us tools to deal with it, Writs on the move, new Steady Hands, Essence of Winter without Induction

Consider using a Lvl 75 2nd Age Moors Satchel, you´ll be able to use all relevant damage Legacys, Writ of Health Healing and level your THR to 32
That will provide quite a bit of self healing

[Thorgrum]

Zombie please respond,

many rk's, myself included, feel that we are gonna struggle in the moors with many of these changes, I like many rk's like to try to solo, but honestly, it's not doable anymore, not with bought skills (which i don't think you have any control over) please, can you give us a moors skill, a skill designed soley for the moors. brands have changed to include slow prevention as i'm sure you're aware and bought in-combat brands just destroy us. I never see Malarick soloing out there anymore, not on his RK...... in fact, i think i'm the last dogged RK soloer on brandywine now...... we have fallen so far.
would you consider a skill for RK's, a moors skill, something to make the creeps stop making crude jokes about our class?

A skill to make creeps from making jokes about the class? Thats a new one, good presentation I like it.

1. Calming Verse increases movement speed by 20%.

Thats a moors skill buff
2. +3% lightning and frost damage for each Solitary Thunder trait equipped

the trait set bonus's to damage for lightening have increased to a total max of +7% (old bonus was +2% for each one slotted)

3. Winter Storm – Each use of a Frost skill stacks a tier winter-Storm buff on you. When at 5, your next lightning skill is an automatic crit. Passively provides -2s Writ of Cold cooldown.

We can now get an automatic crit. Add that to the bonus and your dev crit chances have gone up a lot.

So what exactly do you want that is moors specific? The lightening line has been upped for damage, creeps arent laughing at the 5k Epic conclusion crits....

[AceDwarf]

A skill to make creeps from making jokes about the class? Thats a new one, good presentation I like it.
1. Calming Verse increases movement speed by 20%.
Thats a moors skill buff
2. +3% lightning and frost damage for each Solitary Thunder trait equipped
he trait set bonus's to damage for lightening have increased to a total max of +7% (old bonus was +2% for each
3. Winter Storm – Each use of a Frost skill stacks a tier winter-Storm buff on you. When at 5, your next lightning skill is an automatic crit. Passively provides -2s Writ of Cold cooldown.

The above mentioned changes are good for a moors RK. There are however a few questions regarding those :

1. Is it a 20% movement speed regardess of the movement speed debuffs on you ? A RK being the easiest target in moors to zerg will have some sort of movement debuffs on them in every fight. The slow debuff applied by every creep class is either greater than or equal to 20%. If its a 20% speed increase after the debuffs on us, the RK will still be moving slower than at normal speed. In fights where we can apply a slow of our own this wouldn't be a problem. But against wargs that pop brands before the pounce or against pay to win creeps that use in-combat store brands ( convenience not advantage - LOL ), the skill will have very little use except dropping attunement.

2. The DPS increase is good.

3. If the fight lasts that long, its a RK win ( I am talking about solo play ).

The biggest buff for the RK class with this update is that the fights will be longer. While the RK is at a disadvantage at the start of any fight, a longer fight will mean that RK will have higher % of hits at full attunement.

What I would like to see addressed ( moors specific ) is to see a counter skill to knockdowns and to see a skill that can counter/mitigate ranged attacks.

Another concern is that DNFTF was THE biggest defensive skill for a RK in moors. do not fall to storm/frost is useless in moors. Almost all PvP fights will end with a lighting skill. So basically we will be stuck with do not fall to storm at the start of a fight. That will have a huge impact on the survivability of a RK.