Calming verse duration

[Telcharan]

I think 10 seconds is plenty long enough if your group is performing like they should. If you grab aggro, move to the tank and pop CV. You let the tank know you have aggro while doing that. The tank should then temporarily focus his threat skills on that target to re-establish the aggro. Doing all of this smoothly, without panic is a sign of good group dynamics. 10 seconds is more than enough time for any tank to get that aggro back and to keep it.

I agree with this. Both wardens and guards have plenty of skills that can be used to get back to the top of the aggro heap on a target in less than 10 seconds time (much less, depending on what's off cooldown) so with proper coordination and communication there's no reason CV can't fulfill its function the way it is now. Whether it's a raid or a fellowship, it's purpose now is to send the mob back to the tank who had it for long enough to get ahold of it fully, which is a lot nicer for a tank than having to chase the mob across the room to wherever the ranged DPS classes are sitting.

One thing to keep in mind is that perceived threat bonuses scale to be far more useful than true threat bonuses the longer the fight goes on. It won't be particularly great for getting stuff off of you at the beginning of a fight (although that's really where DW shines) but later on in the fight when there's a lot of aggro on the table a threat drop of 25% would be enough to get a mob off of you and back to the tank in any situation barring a full aggro wipe. It has the potential to be very powerful if properly used if you're communicating with the tank that until he does some more threat skills you will still technically have aggro.

As for our threat in general: I am withholding judgement until I'm able to run tests with a tank I trust when it comes out. I've only been able to run one instance on BR, with a warden who was relearning how to tank, so I can't really say one way or another how bad it will be. I've noticed a definite difference in the past between when I was remembering to use CV consistently and when I was not in how much aggro I was pulling, and now we've got the damage bonus without the threat bonus. It really could be a pain for tanks, but really, given the amount of threat increases they've gotten in ROI I've been hearing constantly about how much easier it is to hold threat than it used to be, so maybe this will just restore them to actually having to work a bit for it. I'm hopeful that whatever problems ensue will be manageable with our existing skills combined with this new CV mechanic.

EDIT:
I was just reminded when posting in another thread that DF has been buffed. Hopefully, that buff affects its aggro reduction ability as well. If this is the case, it could very well go a long ways towards closing the gap CV has left, especially when fire traited, and could help continue to motivate people to trait fire now that lightning has been buffed.

[Bradegor]

DF has been buffed but nothing says its threat reduction has been done; now its simply instant, shorter duration, and lacks initial damage. So you won´t be able to spam it for threat reduction (or looks like it).

I really can´t see how you guys don´t see a problem on losing 20% threat reduction and value that much a -25% perceived threat over 10 seconds as a "skill for skilled players".

First, because "skilled players" already had Distracting Winds.
Second because now we got two threat reduction skills which do very similar things threat-wise and
Third ... well, the third part will come in weeks when raidleaders will start complaining about DPS RKs spoiling ToO fights (some even will take brgs/hunters/champions instead for simply fix the issue and for more burst damage or overall damage), due unability of RKs of doing damage without permanently toning their threat down. Take my words here unless we see more changes.

[Raven-EU]

DF has been buffed but nothing says its threat reduction has been done; now its simply instant, shorter duration, and lacks initial damage. So you won´t be able to spam it for threat reduction (or looks like it).

I was under the impression that you had to let it tick once after the initial damage in order to get the treat reduction applied. I guess I need to check my sources and validate results

[Ravenstride]

So I had to read through 6 pages before you guys started talking about DF. That is your click once off cooldown threat management skill. If you look at the patch notes it says

"Distracting Flame - Cooldown now 30 seconds.Duration reduced to 15 seconds."

I haven't seen anything about the -CD legacy or the -CD in the Fire capstone so maybe someone on BR can share but to me that means that in U6 it is spam-able in Fire line naturally and spam-able in lightning line with the legacy.

As Raven mentions above you need to let it tick for the -Threat to take effect. Not sure if it is just once for the full effect or should you work it into your rotation every 15s for the full effect but I highly doubt that many RKs are using this skill to its max potential currently.

As a tank I have no concerns of losing aggro to RKs come U6. Between my threat leeches, Burg's Provoke, Champ's Rising / Ebbing Ire and your multiple threat management skills, frankly, you're not even on my radar for concerns. If you do get aggro then the group is not working well in the first place. At this point pop new CV, another DF and ask the Champ in your group to take aggro off you and dump it on the tank. Even if the champ is in the other group he can take it off his healer / hunter and dump it on the tank which should place said tank squarely back on top of aggro list. Not to mention Guardian ez-mode tanking skills like Engage.

long story short, use all your aggro management skills, communicate with your group and you will never get aggro. If something goes wrong and you do then there is a great way to buy you 10s to let the group deal with it without you dying. That's something you never had before.

[Bradegor]

Supposedly, DF lowers threat the magnitude it damages.

I´m not sure what will happen with the -DF CD reduction legacy if you equip the capstone, though. Maybe for Fire it won´t be needed ... which really wouldn´t make sense! Did anyone check this? It would be the first time that a legacy of some kind of skill helps only when such kind of skills aren´t traited, heh.

EDIT: i was thinking that perhaps the MF trait won´t give anymore the 30 seconds CD reduction. So it would be still needed. The 5% passive would balance it ... but supposedly that 5% passive was there for balancing the 10% of CV ... so, among so many balancements, maybe we got advantages, or we will get nerfs

[revoked]

Traited for lightning, DF (in current BR build) says it "slightly reduces threat over time" for 15 seconds, and it does damage for 15 seconds. Cooldown is 30 seconds.

With the fire capstone traited, it "greatly decreases threat over time" for 15 seconds, does DoT for 30 seconds, and the cooldown is 15 seconds (the legacy allowing you to have it at 0 cooldown). To keep the decrease in threat active continually you will have to use it before the DoT ends.

Now, what I have understood is that "threat over time" is threat generated by damage over time as opposed to threat generated by single attacks. Champ skill descriptions (as found on Wiki, fwiw) say things like "reduces threat from AoE attacks" or "tranfers 25% of total threat". Hunter's beneath notice says "makes you appear less threatening to enemies for a short time". However, decreasing threat over time could also mean it reduces threat for each tick of the debuff being active.

If reducing 'threat over time' is the same as reducing threat by X% but spread over the time the debuff ticks, than repeatedly using MF will help reduce threat, but not as effectively for lightning RKs. But if it really refers to threat generated by skills that do damage over time, it will not help RKs using lightning at all.

It would be great if someone could clarify the mechanics of how DF/MF work.

[Raven-EU]

Well... DF still has 30 second cooldown in lightning spec so letting the legacy go to -30 do have some kind of validity. I can definitely see myself getting it to at least -15 in either spec. In lightning I'll be using it on one target at a time so 15s duration/cooldown matches well. In fire I'll be DPS:ing multiple enemies and I therefore need to apply MF to many enemies.

On the other hand, I like having duration == cooldown because I then know when I need to re-apply.

@Ravenstride : I'm happy that the Warden class seems to be working again. I've been missing playing with Wardens, they make things so much more interesting. First they almost die, then they completely refuse to die

[AkhorahilEvernight]

Perceived threat changes only change current perceived threat.

Example: You have 1000 threat, the tank has 900. You use CV and you will be "perceived" as having 750 threat. The monster will wander back to the tank, who hopefully hits it a few times before 10 seconds is over. At the end of the duration, your threat goes back up to 1000 (plus whatever additional damage you've done.)

In other words, it's changed from a proactive skill that was completely incapable of helping once a monster started attacking you, to a reactive skill that can be used if you pull too much aggro to save your hide. It, plus the increases in tank threat gains we've added since RoI should make RK's feel a lot safer.

Alright, then this is a brutal nerf to aggro handling, essentially meaning that you will produce 25% more threat than before. We already had an emergency button for this (Distracting Winds), and in an extended fight, it's the threat output that really affects how much DPS you can allow yourself -- emergency dumps are nice to have for when you go too hard, but they don't really help in this respect. Everything else being equal, it simply means that we will only be able to do 80% of the damage we used to do before pulling aggro.

I can't imagine how ZC can think that this is a help! (If so, I fear the zombies bringing gifts...)

[Thorgrum]

I think 10 seconds is plenty long enough if your group is performing like they should. If you grab aggro, move to the tank and pop CV. You let the tank know you have aggro while doing that. The tank should then temporarily focus his threat skills on that target to re-establish the aggro. Doing all of this smoothly, without panic is a sign of good group dynamics. 10 seconds is more than enough time for any tank to get that aggro back and to keep it.

If the group is performing like they should DPS will pick up aggro. Dont know how many groups you've been in but ive been in several and its rare they run Perfectly. DPS toons pick up aggro, it happens even in groups thats are performing like they should. I know how to get rid of aggro, ive been in plenty of groups thanks for the tips. Since ROI and the damage explosion its not as simple as it was to manage aggro on adds.

10 seconds might be enough, or it might not. Were talking about a temp aggro drop so you reset it after the time is up. Sure good guards can pull aggro quick and build threat I wont deny that but the purpose here is also to increase survivability on the big hits from mobs at end game.

I go in on a healing build at 7k morale and I can be one shotted, even if they group is "performing like they should" % chance to crit for players and mobs is a gamble even the best played toons dont know when its coming even if they build for it, its still a #### shoot. I havent even broached healing spikes which are threat generators.

But 10 seconds is fair enough to start, lets see how things shake out after monday. Better to have something then nothing at all.

[choon_blaze]

I've participated in a Foundry T2 run on Bullroarer as dps rk.I've done it hundreds of times.One of the orcs kept chasing me.Then I used CV.Went back to tank.After 10 seconds,before he dies I saw him running to me.He died but still I felt very unsafe with this new CV.And run speed buff doesn't do anything.It's not very wise to run away far and orc chases you to wherever you go.I see this run speed buff is designed for moors but if you have slowing effects on you,you don't run faster.I thought this was like champs sprint but it's not.