Just because half your numbers are stealthed, doesn't mean you don't have to push

[Bedelian]

This just goes out to all the wargs out there. Something I've noticed you like to do a lot is get a large warg pack going and sit around a fight while everyone is solo. Now to the freeps, it looks like there are more freeps, when in reality you outnumber us 2 to 1. So what do you do? You wait and let your fellow creeps die when they push, then when the freeps finally do push, you gank them.

There is a certain courtesy in the moors: whoever has more numbers or superior force should be the one pushing. Just because you can pretend like there's less of you than there really are, doesn't mean you can just wait around for the other side to push into your npc's when they're horribly outnumbered. It certainly doesn't make you good either, you're just taking advantage of your opponent giving you the benefit of the doubt.

[Theoo]

English isn't my native language, so I am sorry if I misunderstood you.
Not all wargs are like that, we don't all have the same personality, for example : Whenever I lead a small warg pack, I try my best to take out targets, if there's a mini there, I use a different tactic but still try to take out the target, but I don't push unless the creeps push. Wargs aren't meant to push, they are designed to go in, take out, and get out as fast as possible, or go in, interrupt and disable the healers, debuff the main dps, annoy the hunters; in other words aid the creeps in their push. We try to overwhelm you by coming from behind, or the sides. We can push, it's true, but we can't push enough without the creeps pushing with us. Most warg packs don't wait around, they try to pick targets and often do. ( I've been in lots of warg packs, we always get kills ) And one more thing, us wargs can try to begin the creep push by attacking the freeps directly, but if the creeps dont push on them, then there's no push.

[UndisputedChamp]

Tin, I completely agree with you.. and it is the main problem we have on creepside. It is a PITA when we know there are wargs around.. expect them to help in a fight and they only jump in when a target gets ~25% and then they bail leaving the rest of the creeps to die. If I counted how many times we had the numbers advantage but lost fights due to COWARDICE... well I would still be counting.

On the other hand I also agree with Bonemeat. Not all wargs are like that.. It is sad that they all get generalized so much due to the worser half of them. To all the wargs that aren't afraid to help win the fight rather than conserve rating... thanks

[eagleeye64]

Tin, I completely agree with you.. and it is the main problem we have on creepside. It is a PITA when we know there are wargs around.. expect them to help in a fight and they only jump in when a target gets ~25% and then they bail leaving the rest of the creeps to die. If I counted how many times we had the numbers advantage but lost fights due to COWARDICE... well I would still be counting.

On the other hand I also agree with Bonemeat. Not all wargs are like that.. It is sad that they all get generalized so much due to the worser half of them. To all the wargs that aren't afraid to help win the fight rather than conserve rating... thanks

You're welcome!
Oh wait...I have 1600+ rating. ><

[Bedelian]

yeah I'm always really impressed whenever I see a really balsy warg. There are a couple I can name who will hang on to a target even if it means dying.

[Macgregor1821]

This just goes out to all the wargs out there. Something I've noticed you like to do a lot is get a large warg pack going and sit around a fight while everyone is solo. Now to the freeps, it looks like there are more freeps, when in reality you outnumber us 2 to 1. So what do you do? You wait and let your fellow creeps die when they push, then when the freeps finally do push, you gank them.

There is a certain courtesy in the moors: whoever has more numbers or superior force should be the one pushing. Just because you can pretend like there's less of you than there really are, doesn't mean you can just wait around for the other side to push into your npc's when they're horribly outnumbered. It certainly doesn't make you good either, you're just taking advantage of your opponent giving you the benefit of the doubt.

They pushed this morning, right over me and a handful of freeps all the way to a TR rez camp :/



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[Intharth]

I agree! to many star farming roflhipsing wargs!

Its sad, i always see wargs going for the easy kill, blowing cooldowns and keeping rating, -obviously i can't speak for the burg counterpart-

They go in, get the ezkill, and poof, there gone. 10 mins later when both cooldowns are up they reappear, same target, then again, poof, gone. Long Live the star farmers! -.- jokes, die once in a while and don't complain when you do.

[UndisputedChamp]

jokes, die once in a while and don't complain when you do.

does that also go for all these 4-4.5 star champs/cappies I see?

[l4j]

Tell you what.

We won't tell you how to fight your style.

You won't tell us how to fight ours.

Cheers,

[Intharth]

does that also go for all these 4-4.5 star champs/cappies I see?

Yes. Yes it does.

[Macgregor1821]

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[LoyalServant]

I must be doing something wrong since I die all the time.

[Skydawg]

Tin, I completely agree with you.. and it is the main problem we have on creepside. It is a PITA when we know there are wargs around.. expect them to help in a fight and they only jump in when a target gets ~25% and then they bail leaving the rest of the creeps to die. If I counted how many times we had the numbers advantage but lost fights due to COWARDICE... well I would still be counting.

On the other hand I also agree with Bonemeat. Not all wargs are like that.. It is sad that they all get generalized so much due to the worser half of them. To all the wargs that aren't afraid to help win the fight rather than conserve rating... thanks

^ This... It's the first thing I noticed when I got to Vilya, I had never seen it before en masse...there were maybe 2 or 3 wargs on old server that did this.

Is worser a word?

[Macgregor1821]

^ This... It's the first thing I noticed when I got to Vilya, I had never seen it before en masse...there were maybe 2 or 3 wargs on old server that did this.

Is worser a word?

Honestly, I feel bad when I KB Soul cause half the time other creeps are bailing on him to protect their stars, I can see him push, look around realize they stopped pushing and he's a... is hanging in the breeze. The other night 2 wargs were at EC woods, they got a couple killsl then 3 other freeps arrived at the same time rather than one by one and they pushed, wargs bailed on him and he died. Happened again, next thing I see, he's on ta lawn and pretty much by himself against the 4 of us. I really don't wanna zerg, so I wait to see if the wargs pop out, they don't the other 3 freeps zerg him, he dies, then they rush to lug rez and it's a pew pew fest. Over and over and over again, I see Soul doing what he can, as often as he can and the other creeps just don't seem committed, so I wonder what he's thinking this whole time cause nobody likes that, not me, not you and I'm sure he doesn't either. When Friz told his raid not to get Soul and push for Arrowz only, I was relieved. When Dahhu did the same, I was ecstatic, finally the guys hiding behind him won't get away yet again.

On a positive note, I was happily suprised to see and be pounced by a few wargs (mostly green) trying to save fleeing WLs, BAs and one reaver. Lunmaz said a warg has never pounced to save him. :/

[sreagan1972]

[QUOTE=Bedelian;6335866]This just goes out to all the wargs out there. Something I've noticed you like to do a lot is get a large warg pack going and sit around a fight while everyone is solo. Now to the freeps, it looks like there are more freeps, when in reality you outnumber us 2 to 1. So what do you do? You wait and let your fellow creeps die when they push, then when the freeps finally do push, you gank them.

There is a certain courtesy in the moors: whoever has more numbers or superior force should be the one pushing. Just because you can pretend like there's less of you than there really are, doesn't mean you can just wait around for the other side to push into your npc's when they're horribly outnumbered. It certainly doesn't make you good either, you're just taking advantage of your opponent giving you the benefit of the doubt.[/]

Sadly, we don't function on either side with a single mind. I have no clue how many folks are around during a fight. Perception would lead you to say, "they should be pushing", when in reality most solo play and have no idea if one side is outnumbered based on stealthed classes.

[l4j]

On a positive note, I was happily suprised to see and be pounced by a few wargs (mostly green) trying to save fleeing WLs, BAs and one reaver. Lunmaz said a warg has never pounced to save him. :/

I've had my BA's bacon saved more than a few times by a passing Warg. And done drive-by-pounces more than once with no other intention than to save someone else's bacon.

I'm sure Freeps have saved with, or been saved by, carefully timed Burg riddles or RK/Mini heals. I have saved, and been saved by, out of group Freepside too on my Burg.

We all play to our strengths and try and try to avoid our weaknesses. If we're not, we're doing it wrong.

[TanisWhisperwind]

I've had my BA's bacon saved more than a few times by a passing Warg. And done drive-by-pounces more than once with no other intention than to save someone else's bacon.

I'm sure Freeps have saved with, or been saved by, carefully timed Burg riddles or RK/Mini heals. I have saved, and been saved by, out of group Freepside too on my Burg.

We all play to our strengths and try and try to avoid our weaknesses. If we're not, we're doing it wrong.

This. I know my BA has been saved numerous times from a warg pounce... can't thank the wargs enough.

The other issue is, and I know I've read it in a lot of other forums where people wish the old players would come back... tbh, I think they'd have the same issues. The problem is the game evolves and so playstyles have to change or the fun would be sucked out. As the level cap increases, things change, and I don't see it changing for the better. Maybe this isn't the right thread to put this on, but this one gets it.

I know in the upcoming future, one of the changes is to the hunter... now we have another bubble to deal with (as if there isn't too many as it is). The problem that I see (and it may seem like a non-issue to others) is the freep-side seems to be going more towards the 'solo' side (why else all the bubbles?). I mean, creeps are forced to group up to get the benefits of other classes (maybe forced is a harsh term, but I can't think of a better way to put it). Defilers and wls can heal, but since they aren't dps classes, they are difficult to rank and get kills... the other classes have decent dps, but can't heal all too well. But when freeps group up, they are difficult, if not impossible to take down if creeps are not in a raid, and even then it's an intense fight where things have to go right (though I do love raid fights).

It's not the same moors that it once was.. things change... and the way people used to play may not work as it once did.

(Note: I may be wrong on the wl class as I don't play one... so sorry in advance if I portrayed them the wrong way.)

[Turin_Turambar_The_F]

I see bubbles as a way to 'scale' survivability as opposed to just increasing hp... with each level cap creeps get more morale than their freep 'counterpart'... back in SoA they were almost identical... however, freep dps scaled higher than creeps (post SoA) so the morale difference was left as means to not touch pve dps and help creeps mitigate increasing freep dps. I would much rather have a permanent +3-5k morale... but champ bubbles were implemented as a 'gimmick' to make tank spec champs more 'active' in their rotations. Anyway, with the proposed increase in creep mits and dps... perhaps the morale difference will actually be meaningful... /holdbreath

[l4j]

<some snippage>The problem that I see (and it may seem like a non-issue to others) is the freep-side seems to be going more towards the 'solo' side (why else all the bubbles?). I mean, creeps are forced to group up to get the benefits of other classes (maybe forced is a harsh term, but I can't think of a better way to put it). <more snippage>

This actually, possibly, bodes well. I've said for a long time that as developers they need to focus Freepside development on the "Main" game (Translation: PvE, the Epic chain, Raids, Instances, etc.) and then balance "us" to the Freeps when they come into the Moors. As far as I know, they always intended for individual Freeps to be more powerful than individual Creeps (as per lore, after all) but didn't make it too extreme because live players really don't enjoy playing cannon fodder. Though, as countless threads have shown, the balance still isn't there.

Part of that, though, comes from the huge disparity they have between Top Shelf gear that Freeps can acquire, and what folks who aren't Raiders can get. The difference between some of our maximally equipped Freeps and their more casual brethren is simply astonishing.

In any case, Hunters getting more Survival skills makes sense for that environment. What will need to happen is for the Creepside skills to be balanced to the new Freep skill / stat / gear / etc., setups. Unfortunately, I can't give any feedback from my Beta experience on it - since I never actually met a Freep on-grid when I was out there.

Will it work out? Have to see. But we're kind of getting off-topic here.

[Skydawg]

There are some wargs, so my statement wasn't a blankent statement, who fight and have saved my behind a quite a few times. Please do not take my statement to heart if you're one of those wargs and I greatly appreciate it. But I have observed, many a time, EC fights where 4 or 5 wargs sit in stealth while a bunch of creeps are fighting, run in, take the KB and run out. I have also observed on many occasions where I was being attacked by one or two Freeps and saw a warg(s) in stealth just sitting there watching me die, not help at all. I understand and agree we shouldn't give free renown, that's just silly and I do avoid that as much as possible, yet I don't like the "OMG I died in the 'Moors" mentality on either side; imho the rating system is at the very least seriously flawed (one death you lose 30 rating points, 15 kills later you're still not back to the original rating you had before you died...people become star huggers and won't fight unless they know they will win, etc., etc.) and should be removed altogether but it is what it is.

Thank you to the wargs that stay and play.

[Macgregor1821]

Part of that, though, comes from the huge disparity they have between Top Shelf gear that Freeps can acquire, and what folks who aren't Raiders can get. The difference between some of our maximally equipped Freeps and their more casual brethren is simply astonishing.

Totally true, same in a different way can be said for creeps - non-p2w spiders, BAs and wargs and just new creeps in general come into pvp at a major disadvantage - audacity, cost in comms to get skills, audacity or anything and puts pressure on them to buy from the lotro store, especially (and likely) if they solo.

New players in general are at a disadvantage. Wendey was upset at being ganked over and over and over and people pointed out gear and she replied in OOC "I got the best I could - great river crafted armor" we pointed out that has no audacity. I don't think she knew at that point what audacity was.

This in effect deters new players which keeps the moors smaller in pop than it could otherwise be.

[UndisputedChamp]

I'm sorry Wendey

[Dontdazemebro]

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Let the random meaningless screenshots begin!