Apply for the 2014 LOTRO Players Council

[GodOfBrandywine]

The new list hasn't even been announced yet and we're already arguing about who was or wasn't chosen? Wouldn't it make more sense to wait and see who made it through for this year?

Sounds a lot like the people who told us to not complain about the class revamps/balance in HD beta, and 'wait and see' how things were upon HD release.

We've been down this road so many times before with Turbine that I'm willing to risk sticking my foot in my mouth by saying something premature. It's a way to make myself feel better. They don't pick spelunker? Then I can at least have the satisfaction of saying "I told you so. Oh, and RIP LOTRO." They do pick him? Well then, I look like an idiot, but at least the game I love is headed in the right direction. It'd be a small sacrifice.

[Sapience]

See, that's exactly it, I'm nearly certain he will not get his 'fair review.'

First of all, I don't even know if he would accept. It seems like a very stressful job, working with developers who - albeit clearly have a passion for the game and work very hard - are in many ways completely incompetent.

Secondly, I look at who was picked for the 2013 Council - and more importantly, who wasn't - and it gives me every reason to think that the right people won't get picked, and the wrong people will.

Edit:

Oh, and I didn't submit an application for him. They've read spelunker's posts. They know who he is. I want to see what they'll do. Whatever ends up happening will be very telling.

I never do this but I went and looked for an application from the person you mentioned. One does not exist. I did find one nomination for him. It was an afterthought at the end of another player's application that amounted to "oh and If I don't get in please consider X."

So whatever ends up happening will be very telling indeed. It will show very clearly that a person who does not apply and gets one afterthought nomination is probably not likely to get on the council because they did not express interest and because no one else expressed enough interest in that person being on the council to nominate them seriously.

Not that all nominees make it (for various reasons), but someone you seem to hold in such high regard that did not even receive your own nomination is perhaps most telling of all.

[Runesi_EU]

This is very alarming to me, given that you are a Council Member.

I didn't either...

[SouthernBelle0927]

The new list hasn't even been announced yet and we're already arguing about who was or wasn't chosen? Wouldn't it make more sense to wait and see who made it through for this year?

Yes indeed. So on that note: Congrats to all who've been invited.

[frickinmuck]

Sounds a lot like the people who told us to not complain about the class revamps/balance in HD beta, and 'wait and see' how things were upon HD release.

We've been down this road so many times before with Turbine that I'm willing to risk sticking my foot in my mouth by saying something premature. It's a way to make myself feel better. They don't pick spelunker? Then I can at least have the satisfaction of saying "I told you so. Oh, and RIP LOTRO." They do pick him? Well then, I look like an idiot, but at least the game I love is headed in the right direction. It'd be a small sacrifice.

Whether he gets picked or not, his feedback is valuable and will still have a place at the table. I don't think someone has to be on the council for their input to matter. If that were the case, wouldn't that be pretty depressing? In reality, there are hundreds of people who post feedback every single day, and if the game is to continue to improve, and if the community is to continue to improve, they all have a role to play.

[GodOfBrandywine]

someone you seem to hold in such high regard that did not even receive your own nomination is perhaps most telling of all.

It's not my job to find you Council Members. I want to see who you, on your own, decide is worthy of picking. I want to see if anything has changed.

Regardless, if you and the developers read the Bullroarer forums, which I'm fairly certain that you do, then you would know who he is. You would have read his posts, and wouldn't need me to argue for him. If you don't read them, then...well, that's a bigger issue.

Go take a look through that one thread I linked, for example. Look at Caltra's post here (Link). There are numerous people that agree about spelunker, for obvious reasons. I don't even frequent the forums that much and I constantly run into brilliant, well-thought out posts by him about balance and gameplay.

Maybe I erred by assuming that if I in my limited forum escapades can recognize his worth, that you would too.

You stated this at the beginning of the thread:

We may also select players based on their in-game and community behavior and extend an invitation even if they have not otherwise applied or been nominated.

At the time, I had instantly assumed you had spelunker in mind when you wrote this. That's how much he stands out above the other posters.

It seems my error is that, yet again, I placed too much faith in you/Turbine. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

[Crell_1]

I never do this but I went and looked for an application from the person you mentioned. One does not exist. I did find one nomination for him. It was an afterthought at the end of another player's application that amounted to "oh and If I don't get in please consider X."

...

Not that all nominees make it (for various reasons), but someone you seem to hold in such high regard that did not even receive your own nomination is perhaps most telling of all.

I can't over emphasize that people who feel someone else would be a good fit, need to take the time to write a nomination if they feel strongly that the player would be a valuable resource for the PC next time applications are announced (2015). Do not assume that someone else will. Do not assume that because you read their posts frequently, that everyone else knows who they are and why they'd be a good fit. Not everyone reads every post. Some players and I would imagine even 2013PC members tend to avoid specific threads entirely, just because they may have no interest in that topic, or care either way what happens and thus nothing to bring to the discussion .

[Comstrike]

I can't over emphasize that people who feel someone else would be a good fit, need to take the time to write a nomination if they feel strongly that the player would be a valuable resource for the PC next time applications are announced (2015). Do not assume that someone else will. Do not assume that because you read their posts frequently, that everyone else knows who they are and why they'd be a good fit. Not everyone reads every post. Some players and I would imagine even 2013PC members tend to avoid specific threads entirely, just because they may have no interest in that topic, or care either way what happens and thus nothing to bring to the discussion .

Likewise, ask that person if they would mind be nominated. Some people may not apply nor want people putting their hat in the ring-however well intentioned the nominator maybe. Some people have explicitly told their in-game friends, kinship members and kinship officers to explicitly NOT nominate them-for each of the past two years. Named focus groups like this can draw the ire of people in-game. Some people may not want to be caught between saying yes and dealing with the label or saying no and worrying about the reverse.

[Galahadur]

I can't over emphasize that people who feel someone else would be a good fit, need to take the time to write a nomination if they feel strongly that the player would be a valuable resource for the PC next time applications are announced (2015). Do not assume that someone else will. Do not assume that because you read their posts frequently, that everyone else knows who they are and why they'd be a good fit. Not everyone reads every post. Some players and I would imagine even 2013PC members tend to avoid specific threads entirely, just because they may have no interest in that topic, or care either way what happens and thus nothing to bring to the discussion .

I agree with Crell. Actually I usually agree with him alot. Hope he gets in.

[Sapience]

It's not my job to find you Council Members. I want to see who you, on your own, decide is worthy of picking. I want to see if anything has changed.

Regardless, if you and the developers read the Bullroarer forums, which I'm fairly certain that you do, then you would know who he is. You would have read his posts, and wouldn't need me to argue for him. If you don't read them, then...well, that's a bigger issue.

Go take a look through that one thread I linked, for example. Look at Caltra's post here (Link). There are numerous people that agree about spelunker, for obvious reasons. I don't even frequent the forums that much and I constantly run into brilliant, well-thought out posts by him about balance and gameplay.

Maybe I erred by assuming that if I in my limited forum escapades can recognize his worth, that you would too.

You stated this at the beginning of the thread:



At the time, I had instantly assumed you had spelunker in mind when you wrote this. That's how much he stands out above the other posters.

It seems my error is that, yet again, I placed too much faith in you/Turbine. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

Several players were added to the council this year based on EXACTLY the comment you quoted. So you were not mistaken. As Crell pointed out, do not assume that because you feel a specific way about a person that others do. In fact do not assume that others are even aware of that person. If you felt so strongly the best, correct, and most impactful course of action was to nominate them.

I believe about 20 - 25% of the new council is made up of players we asked to apply (because members of the team recognized their specific contributions over the past year) or nominated(because others recognized them and thought highly enough of them to submit a nomination). So I would say things worked out exactly as we had stated, hoped, expected, and planned.

I find it very odd that numerous people think highly of him, but none so highly as to submit a simple nomination, including his strongest supporter. Though you ready to lay blame and question the validity of the whole process as a result. I think that does say a great deal indeed.

[Thornglen]

It's not my job to find you Council Members. I want to see who you, on your own, decide is worthy of picking. I want to see if anything has changed.

Actually, if any of us thought someone was perfect for the Council and we really wanted that person to be part of it, it was exactly our job to make it known. That is part of being in the community. Sure, it would be nice if Turbine could be all-knowing and never wrong about anything, but they are human just like we are and anything we can do to help (in polite, civil ways) is very likely appreciated.

Structuring things as a test to see if Turbine does what you want them to do with no input does not sound like a very good idea. It will just lead you farther down the negative path you already seem to be on because the community of players Turbine has is quite varied. While we as individuals have the luxury of focusing on our own points of view, Turbine has to look at many many points of view and decide what is ultimately best for the game. That won't always be what you or I think of as "the right move".

You seem to be someone who is fairly well-spoken, so if I may make a suggestion, consider taking a few steps back from all of this before negativity causes damage. Concern and even criticism can be expressed without resorting to insults.

[frickinmuck]

It's not my job to find you Council Members. I want to see who you, on your own, decide is worthy of picking. I want to see if anything has changed.

So 'testing' Turbine (on what exactly you don't make clear) was more important to you than ensuring someone whose feedback you believe is vital to the game made it onto the council? If so that's a shame, because it sounds like there would be much to lose and really nothing to gain by taking that approach. If the content of your one comment, the one with the links to various comments by Spelunker, were pasted into a quick nomination email, I'm sure it would have gotten some serious consideration. The whole point of the nomination process as I see it was to ensure that no one valuable would get overlooked.

But like I said, I think everyone's feedback is important, regardless of who gets on the council. Hopefully the council members can cast a wider net for input than the devs have time to seek out themselves, and bring that forward when appropriate. So 'all is not lost' if any one person didn't make it on. If we continue to provide feedback and input in the forums, hopefully it will get considered.

[Crell_1]

Likewise, ask that person if they would mind be nominated. Some people may not apply nor want people putting their hat in the ring-however well intentioned the nominator maybe. Some people have explicitly told their in-game friends, kinship members and kinship officers to explicitly NOT nominate them-for each of the past two years. Named focus groups like this can draw the ire of people in-game. Some people may not want to be caught between saying yes and dealing with the label or saying no and worrying about the reverse.

I'd like to second this. As someone who went out of his way to ask people NOT to nominate me for the 2013 PC I was the target of a lot of grief directly both in-game and via other social media after the announcements, when i pointed out that I expressly told people not to nominate me, and that I had no intention of accepting a slot if it was offered at that time.

I saw even more complaints by players in public about so and so not being on the council list. Often one or more of the following reasons was cited:

1.Because the player they named was a better player/poster than the person who happened to be chosen who plays on our world.
2.Because they felt their play-style was underrepresented in the selections, or not represented at all.
3.Because they felt that multiple members of a single kinship couldn't possibly be the best use of a sounding board with such few members and such broad impact

I hope that such rants both on behalf of players not selected we may wish were, or frustrations over specific selections made we may disagree with wont happen this year.

Again, may the 2014PC list help to reassure players that they're in good hands for the future when it's finally announced.

[Palentian]

It's not my job to find you Council Members. I want to see who you, on your own, decide is worthy of picking. I want to see if anything has changed.

*snip*

It seems my error is that, yet again, I placed too much faith in you/Turbine. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

You also assume that he would have accepted the invite. I doubt Spelunker would have found working under the NDA conducive to his..posting style. But, I suppose since no one thought to nominate him, we'll never know.

[Comstrike]

But like I said, I think everyone's feedback is important, regardless of who gets on the council. Hopefully the council members can cast a wider net for input than the devs have time to seek out themselves, and bring that forward when appropriate. So 'all is not lost' if any one person didn't make it on. If we continue to provide feedback and input in the forums, hopefully it will get considered.

I don't see it as the council members job to cast that wider net, but a "congress" to augment and validate the more hands-on views might be interesting.

[GodOfBrandywine]

Several players were added to the council this year based on EXACTLY the comment you quoted.

...

I believe about 20 - 25% of the new council is made up of players we asked to apply (because members of the team recognized their specific contributions over the past year) or nominated(because others recognized them and thought highly enough of them to submit a nomination).

This basically hammers home the point I'm trying to make.

You picked numerous people and ask them to apply because "members of the team recognized their specific contributions." And yet, it seems spelunker is not one of them (I'm taking your post as confirmation of this?). This is what I'm saying is a problem. The fact that the hands down most intelligent poster was not recognized by the 'team' as being a desirable Council Member speaks volumes about what kind of people you are looking for to be on the Council, as well as the judgment of those on the 'team.'

And this is why I say that who the new members are will be very telling. If you are serious about fixing the game, spelunker would have been picked. It takes a short breeze through the important threads about balance and gameplay to recognize this.

Though you ready to lay blame and question the validity of the whole process as a result. I think that does say a great deal indeed.

I don't question the validity of the whole process, just your decision making when it comes to who should be on the Council. I don't mean that as an insult. I just disagree with your choices. And that's fine...I'm just another customer, and you're the one making the decisions. But the people making the decisions haven't been making very good decisions, and that's been the case for a very long time around here.

[frickinmuck]

I don't see it as the council members job to cast that wider net, but a "congress" to augment and validate the more hands-on views might be interesting.

I don't mean it's their job to poll the community for input, rather those who read the forums a lot and follow ideas and thoughts players have in various areas, have the opportunity to bring that to bear in council feedback. And even without the council, player feedback is read and considered by the devs. My entire point is, just because we don't end up on the council, doesn't mean our feedback has no role to play in the process.

[Schinderhannes]

This year I was so || close to apply for players council. (last year | |)
Reasons why I didn't:

• English is not my motherlanguage
• I'm not sure if I'm the right person for it.
• I don't want to work for Turbine (in a way...)
• I could not predict the time investment
• I don't want to double grind game material. I'm afraid It would destroy my normal game experience.
...

Reasons I really want in:

• I wanna help them
• I want to see early prototypes and give feedback
• I have a huge amount of ideas for the game.
• I play the game for 7 years now, I've always wanted it to succeed.
• I'm sometimes not satisfied with gameplay mechanics and UI implementation.
• I have the time and dedication.
...

Just to give a glimpse why some people decide not to apply.

[Palentian]

I don't see it as the council members job to cast that wider net, but a "congress" to augment and validate the more hands-on views might be interesting.

No, actually it is part of the job. Many times a conversation starts: "Hey, guys, I saw this idea on X in this thread.............." We constantly bring things to the table from the wider forums. Its one of the reasons to include various play styles.

[Crell_1]

+Sapience has been kind enough to engage in this discussion and reveal some small details about the makeup of the 2014's Council 'selectioned member sources'

This leads me to ask:

1. Did anyone who had their application solicited as the result of a developer or an offer extended based on someone elses nomination (not having applied themselves) decline? [I realize you may not be able to answer this with any degree of certainty until after the 24th.]

2. Would you be willing to share a rough percentage of the number players you sifted through who make up the following categories: {A.Were Nominated & applied B. Applied but were not nominated. C.Were nominated but did not apply} To be clear. I'm not asking whether or not anyone got multiple nominations on their behalf. I'm wondering what the break down of players you looked at during the nomination process was.

3. Can you give us an idea of the percentage of applications or nominations that were culled for CS reasons? (Culled by CS [quickly] vs Ones you had to sift through repeatedly.)

4. Can you tell us what the 'activity' level threshold was used to determine if they were at all eligible based on their playtime in the last 6 months, and what the requirement for continued playtime will be (especially if different) going forward during their term?

[SouthernBelle0927]

I'd like to second this. As someone who went out of his way to ask people NOT to nominate me for the 2013 PC I was the target of a lot of grief directly both in-game and via other social media after the announcements, when i pointed out that I expressly told people not to nominate me, and that I had no intention of accepting a slot if it was offered at that time.

I saw even more complaints by players in public about so and so not being on the council list. Often for one or more of the following reasons was cited:

1.Because the player they named was a better player/poster than the person who happened to be chosen who plays on our world.
2.Because they felt their play-style was underrepresented in the selections, or not represented at all.
3.Because they felt that multiple members of a single kinship couldn't possibly be the best use of a sounding board with such few members and such broad impact

I hope that such rants both on behalf of players not selected we may wish were, or frustrations over specific selections made we may disagree with wont happen this year.

Again, may the 2014PC list help to reassure players that they're in good hands for the future when it's finally announced.

What you've just described would make an excellent argument for following the Palantir program practice of not identifying who makes the cut. No one deserves to be harassed for making a decision not to participate, just as spelunker doesn't deserve to be used as GoB's axe for grinding against Turbine.

[Crell_1]

The fact that the hands down most intelligent poster was not recognized by the 'team' as being a desirable Council Member speaks volumes about what kind of people you are looking for to be on the Council, as well as the judgment of those on the 'team.' *snip*

If you are serious about fixing the game, *snip* would have been picked. It takes a short breeze through the important threads about balance and gameplay to recognize this.

I doubt even among players from any playstyle subset of the userbase you'd find a single person that stands out like that among 2 of them.

It is my opinion there is no one player who could bring enough value to the council that they should be solicited or invited without consideration of who the other council members are going to be. A very large part of the value the PC has is in the purality of voices. Their differing views. Their ability to dialogue, debate, weighing the pros and cons, the willingness to set aside what they want personally and acknowledge what would be better for a majority of players and support that choice as a result. These are the primary characteristics I would hope are evidenced in the members selected.

[Sapience]

This year I was so || close to apply for players council. (last year | |)
Reasons why I didn't:

• English is not my motherlanguage
• I'm not sure if I'm the right person for it.
• I don't want to work for Turbine (in a way...)
• I could not predict the time investment
• I don't want to double grind game material. I'm afraid It would destroy my normal game experience.
...

Reasons I really want in:

• I wanna help them
• I want to see early prototypes and give feedback
• I have a huge amount of ideas for the game.
• I play the game for 7 years now, I've always wanted it to succeed.
• I'm sometimes not satisfied with gameplay mechanics and UI implementation.
• I have the time and dedication.
...

Just to give a glimpse why some people decide not to apply.

Let me just say that your #1 reason for not applying shouldn't have been a factor. Based on your post, you would do just fine. Perfect english isn't a requirement, just the ability to read and write it well enough to make your point and understand the devs points. Which it appears you can certainly do.

#4 is a good reason. It can be time consuming, but we don't mandate hours.
#5 its more discussion than grind.

Every reason you gave for wanting to join are perfect examples of who should definitely apply.

[spelunker]

Wow, interesting turn to this thread.

I did fill out an application last year without giving it too much thought, though obviously I wasn't selected then which I am happy for. I thought about it more when the announcement was made this year for applications and I did not apply, and quite frankly would have declined had I been offered one based on nominations. I even told people who mentioned nominating me not to, because I would have declined anyway and they should nominate some one who would actually join and hopefully do good things within the parameters of the PC setup. At this point, my forum infractions and the nature of some of them probably preclude me from consideration anyway.

While I don't share some people's outlook that the PC is just some public relations sham, the paradigm under which it operates is so fundamentally flawed and inefficient that the relative usefulness of the PC is only relevant as a function of public relations. It might lose some PR luster, but turbine could be far more efficacious in listening to what the players are looking for in the game with a wholly different strategy.

I hope the people who were selected enjoy their time on the PC and think differently than me when things are all said and done. Congrats to them as well.

[TheCrossbow]

This is very alarming to me, given that you are a Council Member.

For one, it shows that you don't read the Bullroarer forums, or very many of the important threads around here. If you did, you would know.

I find it "alarming" that a number of people seem to still have false assumptions about what the council members are supposed to do... or are required to do.

No single person can be (or should be) expected to be able to stay abreast of everything that goes on. Of the hundreds of people who use the forums, you expect council members would know all posters or read every post?

Bottom line, if Turbine is serious about fixing LOTRO, the very first 2014 PC invitation sent out would have been to spelunker. We'll see what happens.

It is also "alarming" that you seem to think any one person is important enough to be "deserving" to be on... or "expected" to be on the 2014 PC. The PC isn't an election... isn't a popularity contest. The people selected should be people who can/will give *constructive* discussions (yes, I know that is a foreign concept for some people) regardless of how well-known they might otherwise be.

I, for one, would be interested in seeing Spelunker on the PC given that I think he and I have had some good discussions... even though we may differ in opinions... and I think Turbine should be looking for people with strong opinions because that's where you often get the best discussions by letting 2 (or more) people go at it and hash out details.

But, the whole idea of any one particular person being more (or less) important, thus, deserving of a spot on the council... that idea is completely wrong.

It's not my job to find you Council Members. I want to see who you, on your own, decide is worthy of picking. I want to see if anything has changed.

I do also find it telling that someone who *you* thought would be a good council member didn't get a nomination from you. If "spelunker" would be such a good person to be on the council, why couldn't you have taken the 2 minutes to send off an email nominating him?

It may not be your "job" to find Council Members... but it IS your job to support those who you believe would be a good fit. Again, all that takes is 2 minutes to send Sapience an email saying who you think would be good choices.

If you couldn't take TWO MINUTES to show your support for one (or more) person you thought would be a good choice, that speaks volumes about yourself.

At the time, I had instantly assumed you had spelunker in mind when you wrote this. That's how much he stands out above the other posters.

It seems my error is that, yet again, I placed too much faith in you/Turbine. Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

I think it is pretty clear that you set up (in your own mind) Turbine to fail you meet your own twisted expectations. Instead of taking 2 minutes to help influence who might be on the council... you just somehow expect the people selecting candidates to pick the people you want on the council.

It is pretty clear that *you* weren't actually all that interested in seeing a "successful" 2014 PC. Again, you couldn't spare 2 minutes of your time to send a nomination for "spelunker". So, it is pretty obvious that your "concern" about the game is nothing more than hot air. If you (and others like you) really cared about the game as much as you claim... you would have spared 2 minutes to help influence [what might be] a very important year for LOTRO.

I think everyone would [honestly] say that 2014-2015 is a very important time for the game... and could be make/break as the developers are looking to make meaningful changes to a lot of underlying systems... crafting, housing, kinships, revamping older areas, etc.
But, could you be bothered to help influence the game during this important time? Nope. Couldn't spare 2 minutes to nominate some good people to the bench. Nope. Couldn't be bothered to actually demonstrate concern or interest in a meaningful way. Nope. Couldn't be bothered to actually put your support behind this "spelunker" who you claim is so great and important.

Nope. All you seem to be interested in is finding another opportunity to slam Sapience/Turbine because they didn't do what you wanted... when you couldn't even bother to tell them what you wanted. Let's continue to slam Turbine and complain about the direction of the game... but never actually make the effort to influence the game when the opportunity was in front of us. Yes, that will surely work!

If you can't be bothered to take 2 minutes to put your money where your mouth is (well, in this case it required no money)... forgive my bluntness!... then just shut the hell up... just go away... you won't be missed I am sure of that... you have no room to speak... no credibility at all. When people ask where you were when the game went through such an important time and major decisions were made (for good or ill)... what will your answer be? You wouldn't honestly be able to claim that you made any effort to influence those decisions because... well... you didn't.

Geez... how about we see who is/isn't on the council before we start making judgements about it?