I am here to PROTEST against the NUTS grinds of the game

[DiogoVP]

One of the things that has been said from the start, since the Imbuement system was being previewed on Bullroarer, was that this system was unsustainable. That is because the Imbued LIs become harder and harder to maximize every time new legacy tiers are released. As a result, leveling imbued LIs is an extremely difficult, slow and boring task for those with many alts or newly level capped characters.

I started this thread back in November of 2015 because the grind had already gone off the rails and many players started leaving due to how overpriced the scrolls of empowerment were considering how many scrolls per LI were necessary to maximize it. Thankfully, all that effort was worth it and it resulted in the devs greatly reducing the prices of the anfalas scrolls of empowerment and star-lits and making them more available in end game instances and raids.

But as I said, the system is unsustainable as it is and making scrolls and crystals cheaper and more available in instances doesn’t solve the issue that the grind just keeps growing and growing nearly every major update.

Another problem with that is that the grind for essences, class trait points, virtues and t3 armour is already long and complicated enough! That really discourages many new players who hit level cap and then have to go looking for all of these things in order to do the most challenging end-game content... not to mention that many find that the content is no longer relevant by the time they are ready to run it.

I have stopped doing the grind for a few months because it was too much for me. However, the comments I get from friends who are still doing the grind are really discouraging, since they say it’s even more complicated now than when I gave up on going for it. And this really seems to be an almost unanimous opinion among the players.

And just to be clear, I don’t think any grind on any game should be easy, it should be hard! But there is a difference between being hard because it’s challenging and hard because it takes an extremely long time and that is really boring.

Devs should always keep in mind that there is only a number of hours in a day and there is only so much you can do during those hours. So I think it’s extremely important that devs know how long players usually take to maximize an LI and other equipments and then see if that is requiring too long.

It’s very important to ask yourself how long you want a certain content to remain relevant. If you want it to be relevant for 1 year, then I should be able to get everything that is possible to get from that content in 3 or 4 months. That way, I can have time for other characters or to simply grind for non-essential stuff like cosmetics, decorations and play other content like older instances, skirmishes, PvMP, the legendary servers, etc.

And then you should ask yourself how many hours per day or week, a player should spend on the game and how many hours he should spend grinding every day or week. This should be very clear for every player so that we can help you guys by giving more precise and helpful feedback than simply subjective opinions like “it’s too hard” or “it’s too easy”.

Personally, I feel like if a player, especially an adult one with responsibilities, is playing the game for more than 3 hours every day, then that player is likely addicted and I really don’t think this should be something to be encouraged in a game with an adult majority. The reason for that is not just because it’s encourages an unhealthy lifestyle and impact their real responsibilities, but also because those players usually get tired when they have played too much to the point that there is nothing they find challenging and exciting anymore and then they leave. It is better to keep players active for years, than extremely active for months.

But enough talk about my own opinions, let’s go for the suggestions:

Price changes:

Anfalas Scroll of Empowerment:

Relics quartermaster (Dol Amroth): It currently costs 20 silver tokensand 7 gold tokens-> Change it to 2 gold tokensand no silver tokens.

Rangers of Ithilien and Dol Amroth quartermaster: Currently, the price is at 20 Amroth Silver Pieces and 15 Eastern Gondor Pieces-> Change to 10 Amroth Silver Pieces and 10Eastern Gondor Pieces.

Merit Committee: 90 Stars of Merit-> Change it to 45 Stars of Merit.

Morgul Crests: Currently it is 3 Morgul Crests -> Reduce it to 1Morgul Crest.

Morgul Crests: Currently it is 3 Ancient Ithil-coins-> Reduce it to 1 Ancient Ithil-coin.

Roving Threat Quartermaster: It currently is 10 Gift-giver brands-> Change it to 5 Gift-giver brands.

Skirmish Camp: 2,541 Marksand 293 Medallionscurrently -> Change it to 900 marksand 150 medallions.

NEW Shards: Currently 42,660 Shards-> That price is ridiculous and needs to be decreased greatly! Reduce it to 4200 Shards.

LOTRO Store: 295 LPcurrently -> Change it to 50 LP.

Mithril Coins: 10 Mithril Coinscurrently -> Change it to 5 Mithril Coins.

Anfalas Star-lit Crystal:

Merit Committee: 300 Stars of Merit-> Reduce it to 90 Stars of Merit.

LOTRO Store: 495 LPcurrently -> Change it to 100 LP. (I really don't know why upgrading the main stat of an LI is much more expensive using TP than if you buy mithril coins and that's why I am changing it so they match).

Mithril Coins: 10 Mithril Coinscurrently -> Keep it.

Universal Solvent:

This is an item that is 6x cheaper than a Scroll of Empowerment on the LOTRO Store, yet it is 3-4x more expensive than a Scroll of Empowerment in the AH. Something isn’t right with that and the obvious reason is that Universal Solvent basically are only acquired through the LOTRO Store, since they are extremely rare in game.

I would suggest this:

Skirmish Camp: Make it available at the cost of 600 marksand 100 medallions.

Embers/Motes of Enchantment: Make it available at the cost of 400 Embers/Motes of Enchantment.

New LIs:

As I said before, this Imbuement system is unsustainable as it is and simply changing the prices of scrolls/crystals every now and then will not solve the issue. One solution to this problem is to simply make new LIs for higher levels.

A lvl 120 LI, for example, would have the same final tier as a lvl 100 LI, but would begin 20 tiers above a lvl 100 LI’s max tier and symbols to craft those LIs would drop from lvl 120 t2-t3 content.

______________________________ ______________________________ ______________

With all of that said, there will be new threads with new ideas to reduce the grind sometime soon. Once those threads are posted, I will link them here. Please share your opinion in this thread and let me know if there is anything you would suggest.

[Harla]

The grind is too high.

From a spending point of view: if it had been, say, a third of this amount, and we'd needed, roughly 25-30 SoE for each LI to reach the new max caps, and another one Starlit... I probably would have traded in for what I could, then buckled and bought a handful of scrolls from the store. There's a sweet spot for getting people to buy - high enough that they can't do it all in game in the first few days easily, but low enough that it's not overwhelming. If you set the grind bar too high, this is what happens: it's happened with me, and it's happened with many others I've spoken to.

"I need HOW many scrolls and crystals now? Ehhh... forget that, it's not day one vital. I'll just barter what i can when I can, and it'll get done eventually...."

And so, because the grind was so overwhelmingly high, the incentive to get stuff from the store dropped away again, in favour of the back-burner approach. I would have bought store items to supplement my ability to barter if the grind were less... when its' THIS extreme, the concept of buying form the store seems like a drop in a far-too-rich bucket, so I don't... I just barter for what i can, when I can, and the store gets nothing. Here's the thing - this isn't refusal to buy out of protest... this is refusal to buy out of pure disinclination.

The grind is simply too high.

[Nimnaur]

I agree with you Let me say what I did and recommend anyone to do so.Do not trust a hope: I deleted all my alts about 5 lvl100s and lowbies and let remain just one character because I know there is of huge amount of grind is awaits me...

[Rothan117]

The grind is completely out of control. First it caused me to park 7 out of 8 toons permanently, and now my one remaining toon I just cannot work up the interest to do the grind at all. I play some quests on lvl 100 warden, content myself with quest gear and not having every available trait point. The grind is not simply worth the return on the time investment. So instead of doing it, I am down to logging in a few hours a week and spend my free time playing other games.

In summary, Turbine's idea of massive grind to keep people logged in has backfired in my case, I actually log in a lot less. And judging by the server merges and my empty friends list, I am not the only one.

The inane fetch and carry/do the dishes type quests that make me feel like the lowly servant instead of a mighty hero have not helped my attitude to the game either.

[Arnenna]

Have to say it - yes, the grind is too much. It has gone from hefty, to heavy, to totally unrealistic within a year. It's store driven now, that or impossible grind.


It's hard for one alt, let alone ten.

And I don't need a lot of sleep, most nights three hours is enough, so time is on my side - I dread to think what it's like for people that have normal sleeping patterns.

[Aedfrith]

I have 10 level 100s.

When I had 7 level 85s, I could gear them all well.

Now, no chance - so only my hunter and cappy mains get the best stuff, with champ, minnie, warden and RK reasonably decently fitted out and beorning, burglar, guard and LM bringing up the rear.

Hunter has 79 points, cappy 78 (going to 79), but no other toon will get that - 76 is realistically it.
Additionally, THERE IS NO WAY that any LI other than the hunter's bow will be maxed.

This isn't Lotro any more, it's Grindr.

[TharbadThief]

As a side question, related to the topic, how much gold do Anfalas Scrolls go for in your server(s)? Are there usually many available?

[ShireDweller]

The grind is completely out of control. First it caused me to park 7 out of 8 toons permanently, and now my one remaining toon I just cannot work up the interest to do the grind at all. I play some quests on lvl 100 warden, content myself with quest gear and not having every available trait point. The grind is not simply worth the return on the time investment. So instead of doing it, I am down to logging in a few hours a week and spend my free time playing other games.

In summary, Turbine's idea of massive grind to keep people logged in has backfired in my case, I actually log in a lot less. And judging by the server merges and my empty friends list, I am not the only one.

The inane fetch and carry/do the dishes type quests that make me feel like the lowly servant instead of a mighty hero have not helped my attitude to the game either.

I'm right there with you. I'm only playing my main now, and she doesn't have all the trait points/BB points anymore either. I keep her geared well enough to get through the content but don't stress over having to have the best possible build.

With the way the tier 10 crafting materials drop, I'm not even bothering to max out the new crafting tiers. The further we get in the game, the less I'm motivated to play any longer than it takes to do the new epic and see the new area. Once I'm done setting up my houses, I may not set foot in the game again till the maintenance is due. Well, except for the Yule fest, but even that doesn't hold much appeal anymore.

[Findun]

I somewhat agree that the current grind is a bit too heavy. But on the other side let's not forget that if obtaining the scrolls and crystals were easier (faster) people would complain that there is nothing left to do in the game. So it's always either a) there is too much grind, boring game or b) there is nothing left to do, boring game.

Although I'm against too much grind I'd rather choose a) here then being bored.

[Falconbeast]

Yup, they have really outdone themselves this time.

I currently have 11 level 100 alts and there is no way in hell that I am going to grind out all those crystals & empos needed to max them all out.
I used to play them all in the past and gear them all out with the best gear, but no more. I neither have the time or the inclination to do so and i have no intention of buying these items in the Lotro store either (which is what Turbine are hoping for).

I now simply play only 1 alt on a serious level and simply use the other alts for whatever is needed. For example, by completing Talath Anor quest line you get a crystal as a reward and i will complete that quest line with all my level 100 alts purely for that crystal. However, i shall not be completing any of the other quest lines or deeds (except with my main) as there is no real point to it due to the lack of rewards for doing so and the trait tree points are not an incentive to do so either as only my main has the max number of trait points (yet another stupid grind).

I also have a number of lower level alts which I have stopped playing as there is no point doing so due to the grind i will have to face if i level them any more.

Having said that, as I get crystals & empos while playing my main either through stars of merits, instances, skirms etc, i shall use those items on an alt here and there and maybe in time i may, just may, have another alt maxed out.....but i doubt it.

But hey, that's Turbine for ya!!!

[Denebrian_Wintersong]

You people are cra-cra.

The so-called grind in this game is very light when you compare LoTRO to most all Asian developed MMOs.

If you want something given to you, maybe go play a console game?

Welcome to end-game. Now work for your gears

[Spilo]

I somewhat agree that the current grind is a bit too heavy. But on the other side let's not forget that if obtaining the scrolls and crystals were easier (faster) people would complain that there is nothing left to do in the game. So it's always either a) there is too much grind, boring game or b) there is nothing left to do, boring game.

Although I'm against too much grind I'd rather choose a) here then being bored.

One problem does not justify another. Turbine's disregard for end-game content and PvP is a major issue. In addition, as I've said before, it's ironic that Turbine doesn't care about raiding and PvP- the one type of content where top line gear/grind is necessary.

[Arnenna]

You people are cra-cra.

The so-called grind in this game is very light when you compare LoTRO to most all Asian developed MMOs.

If you want something given to you, maybe go play a console game?

Welcome to end-game. Now work for your gears

How many alts have you maxed so far? How many still to go? What end game are you talking about? There isn't any - there is just grind.

If you only have one alt - then yeah, it's easy to work for. Or maybe you have two or three and they have everything maxed, well done to you if that is the case. If you have ten, and everything on all of them is maxed, then who gave it to you?

[dannypl]

The so-called grind in this game is very light when you compare LoTRO to most all Asian developed MMOs.

Last time I checked Boston wasn't in Asia...

[Spilo]

I also echo other's decision to leave my alts behind. I managed to get my first alt (besides LM main) to 100, and I have given up on him. If you think the grind is bad for a main, try grinding a level 1 to Max gear:

LIs before imbuement including crystals, relics, large amount of scrolls
LIs afterimbuement including crystals and massive amount of scrolls
BB grind for Trait Points
BB grind for Jewelery
Massive Virtue Grind
Huge Trait Point Grind through Gondor and Western Rohan
Essence Grind
Crafting Grind
Big Crafting Guild Grind
Commendations Grind for Audacity armor.


I have totally and completely given up on it, and am attempting to grind for my one main, and I'm not even half way done with the U17 Grind which was released a month ago. Turbine, this is bad, bad business.

[elvenes]

of course, no one forces anyone to do the grind. If you want to max out 10 alts or one, that is your decision, and be prepared to face the consequences. The grind is optional, if you want, do it, if not, go on your merry way

[siipperi]

"1) Being optimistic, I'd say someone person gets around 100 Stars of Merit per epic battle and one epic battle takes in average 20 minutes.
2) I have 10 characters and 24 LIs.
3)I need an average of 9 Starlit Crystals and 85 Scrolls of Empowerment for each LI that I have.
4) Currently each Starlit Crystal costs 500 Stars of Merit and each Scroll of Empowerment costs 250 Stars of Merit.
5) That means I need an average of 2280 scrolls of empowerment and 216 Starlit Crystals.
6) Therefore I need an average of 678,000 STARS OF MERIT

That can be translated into an average of 6780 epic battles, which takes approximately 2260 hours.

That is truly beautiful statistics. We can finally feel truly legendary after this grind, and LIs will level along side of us! No more grind, no more making new weapons! Huzzah new Imbued system!

Just to continue with funny stats:
You can also skip that grind. In order to do it you only need:
66,120 mithril coins for emp scrolls and 6,264 MC for star-lits! This translates to roughly 290x250MC pack purchases that cost 2000tp each which leads to 580,000tp needed which leads to over 26 purchases of "best value" 22k TP packs which takes over 3928$. Or to translate to per weapon: 162$ per weapon but here we need to remember I took it with "best value" deals.

You people are cra-cra.

The so-called grind in this game is very light when you compare LoTRO to most all Asian developed MMOs.

If you want something given to you, maybe go play a console game?

Welcome to end-game. Now work for your gears

Very light? Did you even read the OP that provided math and numbers. Apparently not.

[Denebrian_Wintersong]

Last time I checked Boston wasn't in Asia...

Exactly!

So just because this is developed in the US, they should not use similar loot styles as Asian MMOs, but on a lighter scale?

Imagine playing a game 4 years, and never having an item dropped that you need, only because it has an insane drop ratio (like 1:250,000). That to me is a grind.

The "grind" here is no comparison. Yes its work, its something all MMOs do. MMOs are meant for longevity, not weekend flash and done.

[ElanorFb]

I would say more than anything the grind is an alt killer. I have 2 lvl 100 characters. I'm almost done with the first one - level 43/44. I haven't spent a penny on it. I also just got the final essence I needed. So in 2 or 3 days she will be done.

The second character will do a lot less - just the epics in MT - and casually level the LI when I feel like it.

But I agree that after 3 or more characters it's not reasonable to try and get everything done.

[DiogoVP]

I somewhat agree that the current grind is a bit too heavy. But on the other side let's not forget that if obtaining the scrolls and crystals were easier (faster) people would complain that there is nothing left to do in the game. So it's always either a) there is too much grind, boring game or b) there is nothing left to do, boring game.

Although I'm against too much grind I'd rather choose a) here then being bored.

a bit too heavy? Come on, don't be modest. It is 10m pounds heavy. It's I-N-S-A-N-E.

First: we're not asking for easy grind, we're asking for reasonable grind, which right now it totally beyond the limits of reality for anyone that would like to gear up multiple alts. The problem is that in the past you had 1 year to gear up your toons before the level cap was raised and you have to replace all of your gear and the grind was waaaaaaay more reasonable than it is now. Now they are adding A LOT of grind every 3 months. Every update that they add is a MASSIVE add to the grind and no changes on the prices of stuff. The fact that I'd need 3 - 4 months to max only 1 toon is WAAAAY nuts. Turbine needs to have its feet on the ground and come back to reality now. It's time to wake up.

[siipperi]

Exactly!

So just because this is developed in the US, they should not use similar loot styles as Asian MMOs, but on a lighter scale?

Imagine playing a game 4 years, and never having an item dropped that you need, only because it has an insane drop ratio (like 1:250,000). That to me is a grind.

The "grind" here is no comparison. Yes its work, its something all MMOs do. MMOs are meant for longevity, not weekend flash and done.

Are you serious? Are you seriously defending Turbine here? How can you justify to require players to grind over 200 BBs PER weapon, when several classes need 3-6 weapons. For RKs it means over 1200 BBs to get all weapons fully upgraded according to OPs math. How is that any way reasonable? This isn't the case where we are getting last time upgrades to LI legacy tiers for next 4 years, we are getting new bunch of legacies on next update in next 3-4 months unless we the community start total rage war against turbine and inform game media about this travesty. Also show us real comparison to Asian MMOs that have grind which puts this look like no grind. Please show us raw statistics and no BS made up stories that you make now.

[Vilan]

Why is anyone grinding? You don't need maxed out LIs for any content (PvE anyway, maybe PvP does, not real familiar with that). You don't even need imbued LIs at all. You don't need essence gear... if you want it, you can craft some up, buy some cheap green/purple essences on the AH (or go to the skirm camp and buy some 95 purples for 500 marks each) and be in perfectly good shape for anything. Virtues aren't that big of a deal, a few essences will give you as much bonus as a full set of 19 virtues.

If you WANT to be maxed out and show everybody how l33t you are, that's a different thing. You have the option to do so. But just because the option to grind to the max exists doesn't mean you have to take it.

[DiogoVP]

Edited my original post to include a few suggestions... in case people are wondering if I want an easy grind, in my suggestions you can see that the changes I am proposing are not going to make the grind easy, just reasonable for everyone.
If you have some feedback to give about it, I would also listen.

[muddytrousers]

I think it's funny. It's something anyone could see was coming. I remember Isengard coming out, within days player's raced to lvl 75. Did maybe half the content and did the lvl cap. grind . Then came to the forums griping about lack of content. Great River same thing. RoR same. ect, ect. ect.
. Mind you I'm only talking about what players I have seen in my own kin, which is ben around for 4 of the 4.5 yr's I have ben playing. I like fellowshipping and doing all the deeds as I lvl, but not necessarily every quest. I have char.s that will be at cap. well before new content comes out in a yr or 10 mths. (folks should know by now it takes development time plus there's ben new content coming steady in the fall of every yr.)
. We have payer's that have ben playing lotro less than a yr, they have cap. toons and are cryen about lack of game content. We have players ben here 2 yr's and have 3-4 or more lvl 100's. The officers have ben able to get many of them to fellowship newer low lvl ton's.
. So some have joined one of my reg. fellowshipping groups. They are amazed that there is a Forchel and where it is at, that misty mountains is far bigger than they figured. Enedwaith where's that? Long story short. They haven't done half the content of the game on any of there lvl 100's. I know is not only by fellowshipping with them daily, but at times when we wait for the reg. fellowshipers to come online after work. I have sorta went down a memory lane with them to see just what or where they have ben.
. I found that most took this route through the game (give or take as they vary a little bit) using exp. accel. often at times .. They Quest Ered Luin, Breeland, North Downs, 1/4 of Evendim, 1/8 Misty Mountains , Angmar minus Carn Dum, 1/2 of Moria, Mainly Dailies in Lothlorien , Great River, RoR. .... BOOM. They haven't done 1 grind and they're at cap. Cryen this same thing.
. Others race through the new content Knowing full well it'll be a yr before new content is added, Every yr that new content has ben coming with bigger and longer grind's. Because when players get lvled and the grind done they complain for 8 mths about nothing to do. They have all the best gear possible on there lvl cap. char.s.
. I've soloed the game , grouped through it diffirent players all the time, and reg. fellowshipped it. By far the reg. same players in full fellowship of the is the most fun if you don't take everything so serious, granted it may appear the slower way to lvl. But really you cover more content get your slayer deeds ect done way faster than any other way. Best part is it's just way more fun an relaxing.
. I will have char's at end game and geared before anything new comes out. But i'll wait for the rush and lag to relax a bit before I pass Gondor, Like I did Isengard.ect
The grind is there because of the way most play the game anymore, Race, Rush ,Hurry, then demand more to do. If you go through these forums you'll find it happens Every new release. Lag , Lack of content and all.
. Maybe try different play style slow down a bit. Play the game the way it was developed ect. and maybe the developers will develop things a bit different. I'm sure the vast majority can go through more content in 4-6 hrs than can be developed weeks or months.
. Do the new content faster, Grind the grind out faster . Then maybe they'll lessen the grind for better gear. That seems to be the mind set anymore. The developers and Programer's can only develop and program so fast.
. Yes' 100% I already know what sort of response's this will get. So don't exspect me to come back and even try to defend any of this against the Mob of angry response's.

[Wibz]

of course, no one forces anyone to do the grind. If you want to max out 10 alts or one, that is your decision, and be prepared to face the consequences. The grind is optional, if you want, do it, if not, go on your merry way

Exactly!

Considering pre-U18, before the additional Legacy levels, you could complete ALL the current game content, it's clear that the extra Legacy levels are entirely optional. And many (though not all) of the legacies and crystals offer a tiny increment to your class. If people feel they have to max out every LI then that's their WANT, there is certainly no NEED to grind to max anything out.

The one thing I do agree with, is that the number of Emp Scrolls needed to max out legacies is so many that it makes using the store to do it (or to just help) is so expensive that I certainly wouldn't consider it at all, whereas a few years ago, when the number needed was quite small, then I did buy a number of them.