U23 Creep Nerf

[Tirn]

So steadfast barrage no longer crits? Oh well Vastin has obviously been hard at work ... good job I’ve got a sense of humour

[sahanto]

So steadfast barrage no longer crits? Oh well Vastin has obviously been hard at work ... good job I’ve got a sense of humour

Check live man, creeps are really powerful.

[Melywen]

Really powerful against what right now? NPCs? hahah

[Vastin]

No specific intentional change was made to any creep skill (that I am aware of - it's possible that one of our designers made a bugfix or something that I didn't see) - all the changes I made for this latest update were simply broad statistical updates.

And yes, my hope is that Creeps are at least a bit OP coming out of the gate, given that they'll be up against a steady progression of Freep gearing that will be rapidly catching up with them.

-Vastin

[sahanto]

And yes, my hope is that Creeps are at least a bit OP coming out of the gate, given that they'll be up against a steady progression of Freep gearing that will be rapidly catching up with them.

-Vastin

Awesome, I didn’t mean to say what I said in a “ah vastin screwed up” way. I meant it in a I fully agree with what has happened and frankly, I love it

[Nouri]

No specific intentional change was made to any creep skill (that I am aware of - it's possible that one of our designers made a bugfix or something that I didn't see) - all the changes I made for this latest update were simply broad statistical updates.

And yes, my hope is that Creeps are at least a bit OP coming out of the gate, given that they'll be up against a steady progression of Freep gearing that will be rapidly catching up with them.

-Vastin

Really looking forward to logging in tonight!
/Cheers

[spelunker]

No specific intentional change was made to any creep skill (that I am aware of - it's possible that one of our designers made a bugfix or something that I didn't see) - all the changes I made for this latest update were simply broad statistical updates.

And yes, my hope is that Creeps are at least a bit OP coming out of the gate, given that they'll be up against a steady progression of Freep gearing that will be rapidly catching up with them.

-Vastin

If you make creeps OP (even slightly), you will have very poor PvMP health overall, and worse than if freeps are (slightly) OP. These giant pendulum swings, especially acknowledging that they are intentional and expected doesnt leave the best feeling in me. If all you're doing is broad strokes (that are presumably fairly easy to do, based on BR build turnarounds), why not put them in a spot you think will be decent right now, and give a broad stroke to creep base stats every time freeps get a new round of gear?

[sapienze]

If you make creeps OP (even slightly), you will have very poor PvMP health overall, and worse than if freeps are (slightly) OP. These giant pendulum swings, especially acknowledging that they are intentional and expected doesnt leave the best feeling in me. If all you're doing is broad strokes (that are presumably fairly easy to do, based on BR build turnarounds), why not put them in a spot you think will be decent right now, and give a broad stroke to creep base stats every time freeps get a new round of gear?

By your own admission you haven't been around for the last two years and maybe more. I do remember some of the changes proposed by players that set some of this pendulum in motion. Some of those changes through hidden obscurity to enable and encourage 1v1s. Which later were taken up by the Dev at that time and set to become live. Also a few unintended changes came along with those very proposals which also had impacts still felt today. By getting the ear of a PvMP Dev and changing the goal post for the standard measure of balance, changed and irrevocably damaged the perception of what PvMP in this game meant to the player population. Balance though managed on the individual basis of class was and still should be based on Group vs Group and Raid vs Raid. Not based on a few players desire to have balance set to their playstyle. Which it was at that time. One name can define when this event took place.

Osgiliath


Bring back any memories?



Whats being done now is adequate for the period. What you are suggestion is to micro manage something in a repetitive reactive model. What is being done is proactive and places a model to adapt and build a solid foundation to further simplify and enable Creep balance for Group vs Group and Raid vs Raid for the future.

It doesn't give you the best feeling? Intentional pendulum swings are far better than what took place before in the past. That gives many a sense something might finally work out in the longer run.


Now all the person who takes on this task (which in case is Vastin) needs to do is not be bamboozled by players who have singular goals for their own agendas.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Fankly, Im just happy 1-shotting isn't a thing anymore. That in itself improves things dramatically.

[spelunker]

By your own admission you haven't been around for the last two years and maybe more. I do remember some of the changes proposed by players that set some of this pendulum in motion. Some of those changes through hidden obscurity to enable and encourage 1v1s. Which later were taken up by the Dev at that time and set to become live. Also a few unintended changes came along with those very proposals which also had impacts still felt today. By getting the ear of a PvMP Dev and changing the goal post for the standard measure of balance, changed and irrevocably damaged the perception of what PvMP in this game meant to the player population. Balance though managed on the individual basis of class was and still should be based on Group vs Group and Raid vs Raid. Not based on a few players desire to have balance set to their playstyle. Which it was at that time. One name can define when this event took place.


Osgiliath


Bring back any memories?

Frankly, no this doesn't bring back a single memory. The Osgiliath map was bad for pretty much everyone, and I never got the impression it was designed to cater to 1v1'ers or solo'ers, and would argue it was expressly terrible for those things. I certainly don't recall any class changes that came about at that time that seemed remotely connected to PvMP. Could you be specific on this? As best I can tell no updates have happened to creeps in ~4 years. Which freep changes have taken place that can be tied to PvMP feedback?
What I do remember about Osgiliath Beta was providing (by far) the most detailed breakdown of the map, and making a massive list of suggestions, centered around making actual RvR and GvG the focus, and shifting things away from the bridge shuffle. As you have pointed out though, I have been away for 2+ years, so please point out changes that have been made specifically to encourage 1v1'ing.

Whats being done now is adequate for the period. What you are suggestion is to micro manage something in a repetitive reactive model. What is being done is proactive and places a model to adapt and build a solid foundation to further simplify and enable Creep balance for Group vs Group and Raid vs Raid for the future.

It doesn't give you the best feeling? Intentional pendulum swings are far better than what took place before in the past. That gives many a sense something might finally work out in the longer run.

But for what period? There wasn't nearly enough testing to know how this update is going to play out; but lets assume it is moderately tilted towards creeps right now, the next update tilts it to about even, the one after that tilts it mildly towards freeps, and the one after that back to somewhere around where we were on Monday with 1-3-shotting creeps being perfectly regular. What part of past history suggests that the creep adjustment is going to come before we get to that particular swing of the pendulum? What I'm asking for is the polar opposite of micro managing. I'm not asking to look at specific skills, or gear bonuses, I'm asking for the type of macro adjustments that took place between BR build 6 and BR build 7 to be used in the future at the same time that new freep gear becomes available, to loosely maintain a status quo.

Now all the person who takes on this task (which in case is Vastin) needs to do is not be bamboozled by players who have singular goals for their own agendas.

It sounds like you're reading way more into my previous post (and whatever you think you remember of my posting history) than is appropriate.
I'll summarize my opinion on PvMP so you don't have any more confusion:
-PvMP will never be balanced so long as we have non-mirrored classes, and we should never try to have mirrored classes.
-PvMP adjustments should be made to loosely normalize basic combat aspects: The time it takes a freep dps to kill an AFK warg should be roughly the same as the time it takes 1 dps creep qto kill an AFK minstrel (normalized for relative class survivability, so a warg should outdps a reaver, but the reaver should be way tougher than the warg, etc, etc), The time it takes a healing rk/mini/beo to full heal a near-dead freep should be roughly the same as the time it takes a Def/WL to do so. CC potential and -inc healing potential should be loosely equivalent between the two sides even if they produce those things in drastically different manners.
-PvMP adjustments will be better, and have better outcomes for Raid v Raiders, if the adjustments are done such that classes are on a relatively level playing field. Any time there have been gross class disparities and people have said Raid v Raid is balanced anyway, a deeper dive finds that the balance only occurs when you stack the powerful classes and avoid or minimize the weaker ones. Which tells me Raid v Raid isn't actually balanced, its just an opaque enough system to hide it.
-PvMP can be brought to a very good point without doing anything moors specific to any class (other than I guess bringing back DF). Problems arise when freep classes are in a bad spot relative to each other in PvE land, and when that happens those problems carry over into PvMP.
-I don't have any hidden agenda for promoting 1v1s, or soloing, or small grouping, or Raid v Raiding. I think in open world PvP each of us should do what we please and live with the consequences. My personal opinion is that the server hardware and coding isn't up to snuff for Raid v Raid most of the time, so I don't take part in it very often, but I've spent orders of magnitude more time grouped in the moors than at 1v1 circles, and would prefer to keep it that way.

[Spilo]

No specific intentional change was made to any creep skill (that I am aware of - it's possible that one of our designers made a bugfix or something that I didn't see) - all the changes I made for this latest update were simply broad statistical updates.

And yes, my hope is that Creeps are at least a bit OP coming out of the gate, given that they'll be up against a steady progression of Freep gearing that will be rapidly catching up with them.

-Vastin

While I'm glad the Creeps have received a balance update, I hope you'll consider the accessibility of Creepside in comparison to Freepside. Freep PvP either needs to be significantly reduced in price (no longer VIP only), needs to integrate PvP armor (so you don't have to grind for weeks to participate in PvP), or both.

[floccari]

I didn't play on BR, but on live right now looks like they nerfed Mits and Critical Rating base stats.

And I think you could update WL Banners, Point of Defense gives like 0,5~0,7% of each Mitigation.

[Tangaar]

BA keen Eye
Has a typo 5 years now....since to this day everytime i click on the stance i just read it and laugh...
Come on..


Keen Eye
Each ranged "attacked" blah blah...



Anw i have bugged these things aswell as the Tangleshot EXTREME dmg that wont ignore mits bug that doesnt work for years now but there is so much neglect it even bores me to this day

Also ppl forgot that the Trap dmg was nerfed to the ground. Ok i get it it was unmitigated 1000 dmg but was nerfed to 120 etc, things still look amazing

Vastin The way things are balanced atm is a (sorry)###### way. I read across the lines that it means that in the end again the same thing as it was before UP23 will happen. Freeps will get gear that will mitigate things to the ground and once again oneshot things.

THIS AGAIN is a like band aid on a huge wound...
What Spelunker said is the way to go. Each freep update with new essences etc CHECK AGAIN creep stats and update appropriately

[J-Moneyforever]

I'm actually gonna play devil's advocate here. I don't agree that SSG should re-evaluate creep/freep balance on every update to freep gear. Or rather I should say it would be nice if they did but that's not a realistic request. The resources simply aren't there. They've done nearly the same at the last 6-7 level caps. Creeps are OP til freeps get the first round of gear and balance is good-ish. Then raid gear tilts the pendulum in favor of freeps.
Prior to last update with the clown show of one shots that's been a fairly effective strategy primarily because in LOTRO there simply isn't the same level of power creep that other games have. LOTRO tends to have 3 rounds of gear for freeps, initial level cap, 3-6 mans, raid. Occasionally you'll pick up some slight improvement post-raid (LLG, Strongholds). But this is how things have been. As long as we don't get a repeat of the balance #### show that was the end of Mordor (and depending on how powerful raid armour is I don't think we will) then I don't see an issue with this system. Everyone just has a sour taste in their mouth because Mordor performed so poorly with this system.
With all that said, balance actually has to be paid attention to. IE: if this system fails again like it did in Mordor with freeps one-shotting everything. the creep population will quit completely.

PS: Latent poison currently removes 5700 power. That may be too much.

PPS: I realize balance has never been totally right with this system (exception being mid-85 cap). But I would accept any pre-mordor, post-SOA level of balance due to the creep population advantage.

[sapienze]

While I'm glad the Creeps have received a balance update, I hope you'll consider the accessibility of Creepside in comparison to Freepside. Freep PvP either needs to be significantly reduced in price (no longer VIP only), needs to integrate PvP armor (so you don't have to grind for weeks to participate in PvP), or both.

We always seem to be in opposition on many components of this PvMP. Such is the case here too.

Creepside needs to be VIP to play. Same as it was in the beginning. The potential boon from the intro of F2P has long expired. Too many times VIP are denied access to Creepside due to useless spots taken in a limited population region by spies and multiboxers. Some nights, I can count more than 20 characters on Creepside essentially stealing spaces. As far as I know it is currently limited to 100 and to have a potential 20% wasting space is wrong.

There is no reason to reduce or eliminate the price to PvP for Freepside. It should remain VIP access. Freepside doesn't need the same kinds of players wasting space there too with spies.

I'm actually gonna play devil's advocate here. I don't agree that SSG should re-evaluate creep/freep balance on every update to freep gear. Or rather I should say it would be nice if they did but that's not a realistic request. The resources simply aren't there. They've done nearly the same at the last 6-7 level caps. Creeps are OP til freeps get the first round of gear and balance is good-ish. Then raid gear tilts the pendulum in favor of freeps.
Prior to last update with the clown show of one shots that's been a fairly effective strategy primarily because in LOTRO there simply isn't the same level of power creep that other games have. LOTRO tends to have 3 rounds of gear for freeps, initial level cap, 3-6 mans, raid. Occasionally you'll pick up some slight improvement post-raid (LLG, Strongholds). But this is how things have been. As long as we don't get a repeat of the balance #### show that was the end of Mordor (and depending on how powerful raid armour is I don't think we will) then I don't see an issue with this system. Everyone just has a sour taste in their mouth because Mordor performed so poorly with this system.
With all that said, balance actually has to be paid attention to. IE: if this system fails again like it did in Mordor with freeps one-shotting everything. the creep population will quit completely.

PS: Latent poison currently removes 5700 power. That may be too much.

PPS: I realize balance has never been totally right with this system (exception being mid-85 cap). But I would accept any pre-mordor, post-SOA level of balance due to the creep population advantage.

I agree and fully recognize what is being said here. If more players understood this it might change their outlook and suggestions they might be inclined to propose.

[AaronIU]

I agree and fully recognize what is being said here. If more players understood this it might change their outlook and suggestions they might be inclined to propose.

The vocal minority that are below the balance curve has eroded any chance of balance. They see creep class X is too strong (for them) and should be balanced to their abilities, rather than realizing they are under geared, under skilled, and that creep player is just better than them. If you get enough of them complaining, devs listen, because thats the only voice they hear. The more voices of reason they hear, they can make a better judgement on the validity of those claims. Such was the case on BR with false and blatently misleading feedback coming from certain players.

[spelunker]

Creepside needs to be VIP to play. Same as it was in the beginning. The potential boon from the intro of F2P has long expired. Too many times VIP are denied access to Creepside due to useless spots taken in a limited population region by spies and multiboxers. Some nights, I can count more than 20 characters on Creepside essentially stealing spaces. As far as I know it is currently limited to 100 and to have a potential 20% wasting space is wrong.

There is no reason to reduce or eliminate the price to PvP for Freepside. It should remain VIP access. Freepside doesn't need the same kinds of players wasting space there too with spies.

If this were 2013 I would agree about creeps needing to be VIP. Unfortunately that ship has sailed, and adding back a VIP requirement when they've been f2p/b2p for 5ish years would just drive away 3/4s of the creep population, which would in turn cause all of pvmp to start circling the drain from lack of involvement. I do 100% agree we need to keep freepside VIP, or at least continuously require a monetary input (so re-evaluating the moors pass into a workable model could work, maybe).

Something should definitely be done about freep f2p spies and other forms of unused creeps taking up login spots (weavers/wargs being used to prevent keep flips and/or scout for keep/op flips by people multiboxing, for example).

I agree and fully recognize what is being said here. If more players understood this it might change their outlook and suggestions they might be inclined to propose.

As in the other post, if we had some sort of guarantee on how far the pendulum would be able to swing in either direction, I wouldn't really have a problem. The issue is we don't have any such assurance, and past history has shown they are ready and willing to let it get out of hand from neglect. What I'm asking for is if we get an expansion/level cap type update, they put things in the best position they think they can for the resources they have (such as presumably now), then when a new raid/gearset comes out, lets assume freep stat power goes up 5%. At the same time, just universally buff creepside corruptions and morale by 2-4%. Nothing crazy, nothing that needs a deep dive into stats or skills, just a basic nudge that we know won't go too far one way or the other.

[sapienze]

If this were 2013 I would agree about creeps needing to be VIP. Unfortunately that ship has sailed, and adding back a VIP requirement when they've been f2p/b2p for 5ish years would just drive away 3/4s of the creep population, which would in turn cause all of pvmp to start circling the drain from lack of involvement. I do 100% agree we need to keep freepside VIP, or at least continuously require a monetary input (so re-evaluating the moors pass into a workable model could work, maybe).

Something should definitely be done about freep f2p spies and other forms of unused creeps taking up login spots (weavers/wargs being used to prevent keep flips and/or scout for keep/op flips by people multiboxing, for example).


As in the other post, if we had some sort of guarantee on how far the pendulum would be able to swing in either direction, I wouldn't really have a problem. The issue is we don't have any such assurance, and past history has shown they are ready and willing to let it get out of hand from neglect. What I'm asking for is if we get an expansion/level cap type update, they put things in the best position they think they can for the resources they have (such as presumably now), then when a new raid/gearset comes out, lets assume freep stat power goes up 5%. At the same time, just universally buff creepside corruptions and morale by 2-4%. Nothing crazy, nothing that needs a deep dive into stats or skills, just a basic nudge that we know won't go too far one way or the other.

Here is the timeline in this interview. About halfway down Q@A about PvMP balance.

http://www.mmo-central.com/2018/08/0...lin-ciccolini/


My thread after reading the interview.

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...r-PvMP-balance


3/4 of what will leave? Shufflers playing fat kid pvp? I can't say that would bother me one bit. It's probably more important to consider what players would remain vs what player would leave. One thing worth thinking about is the lack of Creepside development in relation to its revenue generation. If VIP were re-instated there would be an expectation for those to play it to see balance maintained and developed. A maintained and developed PvMP region would attract players in the long run not reduce the population.

We wont and have never received any guarantees. If it became a paid feature again the burden falls on SSG to make it better than it has been since the F2P era began.

[spelunker]

Here is the timeline in this interview. About halfway down Q@A about PvMP balance.

My thread after reading the interview.

3/4 of what will leave? Shufflers playing fat kid pvp? I can't say that would bother me one bit. It's probably more important to consider what players would remain vs what player would leave. One thing worth thinking about is the lack of Creepside development in relation to its revenue generation. If VIP were re-instated there would be an expectation for those to play it to see balance maintained and developed. A maintained and developed PvMP region would attract players in the long run not reduce the population.

We wont and have never received any guarantees. If it became a paid feature again the burden falls on SSG to make it better than it has been since the F2P era began.

Is the PvMP community strong enough to lose 3/4s of its population and survive? Yes a (vast) majority of current players are shufflers, and the concept of losing these types isn't a big deal to me. But lazy players can be shown a better way with better mechanics (ahem, back doors usable in-combat) and people willing to lead, empty servers can't.

I'm not fully seeing the point of this post, or your first reply to me. I'm also not being sarcastic, being intentionally obtuse, or asking rhetorical questions either: what changes designed to improve 1v1'ing back at Osgiliath release happened? What about this interview suggests to you that PvMP will be in a better place 6 months from now than it was a week ago? That interview seemed like business as usual from the Turbine days to me; "we'd love to make PvMP updates, and they are in our long term plans once we finish priority pve projects." Ultimately their priority projects don't finish until new high priority projects come up, and PvMP becomes the can kicked further down the road.

I'm also yet to see an explanation for whats wrong in asking for what I've asked for. If new freep stats/gear come out in an update, and they will get a 5% stat increase, why can't creeps be given a 2-4% boost to their most generic stats to compensate (morale and corruption values)? The dev team did exactly this, along with a number of other non-pvmp changes between BR build 6 and 7, which was a week turnaround.