Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[provamail10]

Just like Seekingerin, I wonder about the nature of post-war Gondor.

1) Scope of the revamp: will we get all of it (North, Central, East, Old and Far Anorien and maybe North Ithilien) or a few of these regions (Eastern Gondor is the more likely for connecting south).

2) Filling the gaps: will we get the large spots of landmass which were left undeveloped and are already mentioned in this thread?

3) Expansion to the west: will we finally play in Anfalas, Pinnath Gelin and Andrast?

4) Expansion to the south: will we get the Southguard and Harondor in our way to Umbar? I think they are likely to build them for the sake of connecting landscape, which is one of Lotro main assets, but I doubt if they will add them in post-war Gondor or after Umbar.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

I would rather have that one on cap, though. Plus, if they're smart, they may have the last last remnants of the Angmarim scattered after this final fall of Carn Dum, which means they could travel into unfortified Western reaches of Angmar, parts of Forochel, wastes of Forodwaith, a true exile this time, which could include some of these characters/plot threads they hinted at earlier in Gundabad, rather than just... kill them all off in succession in one instance cluster. If that's how it goes and some of them remain in true exile, maybe with crazy ideas to dig into Forodwaith or whatever, then I'm okay with this "just instance cluster" solution. Which would mostly focus around the boss women from Carn Dum and their plans for the Stone, maybe. The other reason why it would be smart is that having some Angmarim still alive might be a nice idea regarding anything involving Throkhar and the Nameless in general, if Throkhar is to be seen influencing things in more places than one - recently even the Guryzul pale in comparison with what the crazy Angmarim are capable of. That Master in the Muck? (... or literally any of the sh*t they pulled out in Gundabad). These are really ideal servants for Nameless and the Throkhar, so we could have some crazies maybe advancing some of their plans (in spoken words), at least in these parts of Middle-earth, so we don't end up again with the Shadowed King situation (which I liked as a setup and one-off thing, but yeah, the Nameless in general aren't like... a talkative, comprehensible, perfectly humanized bunch, they're not supposed to be)

I'd rather the Angmarim not join up with Throkhar.

• We already slapped Angmar around back in Shadows of Angmar
• We then helped the Rangers slap around remnants at the beginning of Volume III when we recruited the Grey Company
• We slapped them around again in Gundabad
• And now we're doing it AGAIN as a follow up to the Gundabad story

There's only so many times you can beat the same group before it turns into a tedious "I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME GADGET!" level writing.

I'd rather they use the Throkhar storyline to expand on other things like the Rhun disaster, Easterling culture, adding more depth to the Nameless, and possibly Thafar-gathol and the Hobgoblins up north, rather than tie what is quickly becoming one of the most overexposed enemy groups besides the Orcs(but without the numerical justification Orcs have) into yet another storyline. And if SSG ties Throkhar as some sort of supreme ruler of the Nameless, and ties them into the earthquakes, then Throkar's influence already spreads from Jarnfast in the Iron Hills, across the whole of the Grey Mountains into Gundabad, an all the way down the Misty Mountains past Kidzhul-Kala, and into Moria. And likely all the way into the Orocarni mountains in Rhun. Pretty expansive.

[TesalionLortus]

There's only so many times you can beat the same group before it turns into a tedious "I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME GADGET!" level writing.

When that fits story-wise, then fine, and with Gundabad in particular they've been strongly characterized more like some kind of a terrorist cell/multiple cells than an evil kingdom sort of thing. And that kind of extremist crazy groups survive and can be really resilient. But yeah, definitely no more strongholds and keeps then, more like lone crazy groups in exile doing crazy things or trying to survive. But the game needs mobs and it reuses mobs all the time, so I would rather run into some Angmarim again too than have less variety or be stuck with just Hobgoblins.
Well, I meant more that maybe you can run into one crazy group of them, being used for some purpose, some of them mumblings strange prophecies and maybe get some information from some of them about Throkhar, though they wouldn't probably even recognize him as such, and just came up with their own name for it.

*The "next time Gadget" trope would be due to the fact that, yes presumably, we were supposed to topple them before, but honestly, I never bought that part. It was more reasonable to me that they were toppled outside Carn Dum and held at bay, but not truly ever gone from that place. That group hiding in the weird cave city in In Their Absence should be just retconned as some Angmar rebels and Mordirth/Amarthiel loyalists in the text now, driven out of Carn Dum by their own, and they've always seemed mega strange and funny anyway with their funny houses in the tunnels, the entire Car Bronach take was much much better as believable Angmar remnants. They could even drop a hint/tease with the name of the main boss from this new instance in there, and say that they didn't want to follow that specific someone and thus rebelled/were exiled/and then further driven out by the Rangers, so they hidden in these tunnels.



Also, I must be an idiot for only figuring this out, but old Carn Dum actually includes two gateways/pathways leading West!



Haha, only realized now. Or maybe I knew back then and just forgot.. LOTRO is such a big place But immediately made me even more excited for this Western area to be added someday

Now, THIS is what we want and love (or at least some among us who care, because sometimes I get this feeling like many don't as long as you throw any end game instances at them). And they did noticed which was even mentioned in the stream by Sev - expanding existing landmass and growing the existing rich world, that's what we love. Plus, giving a little polish/additions to old places where they're really needed, sure. Not really... seeing present day alternative takes of the same present day places redone with new/not exactly fitting assets/ in entirely different way, which only serves to cheapen and disjoint the existing world (the old Carn Dum is a ruined place in a bad shape, repaired in messy iron fashion, and its collapsed bridge is literally secured on multiple support pillars... but the new one from the new cluster seems... like a solid stone fortress with a bridge in good shape, as if it was in the Witch-king's prime, A Tale of Yore type of thing and not at all the LOTRO's TA version from SoA...)

Even if it was just the old Carn Dum made part of public space, like they've done with Trestlebridge, and used for a few lead-up quests (behind the gate or side door only accessible from lvl 140) and then a new pathway opened to the West, leading up to a new small section that has the entrance to the new instances (and maybe, someday, then that path could eventually connect to new path and brand new landmass sometime in the far away future). Now, that's the thing I would be in love with... not redoing Carn Dum in such awkward, needless fashion and needlessly introducing internal inconsistency to the existing world. But well, maybe it can still happen someday... and these two paths may be opened... in the real Carn Dum... regardless of that alternate one existing as an instance cluster, since it's coming soon and some of us will have to live with it...

[gildhur]

Even if it was just the old Carn Dum made part of public space, like they've done with Trestlebridge, and used for a few lead-up quests (behind the gate or side door only accessible from lvl 140) and then a new pathway opened to the West, leading up to a new small section that has the entrance to the new instances (and maybe, someday, then that path could eventually connect to new path and brand new landmass sometime in the far away future). Now, that's the thing I would be in love with... not redoing Carn Dum in such awkward, needless fashion and needlessly introducing internal inconsistency to the existing world. But well, maybe it can still happen someday... and these two paths may be opened... in the real Carn Dum... regardless of that alternate one existing as an instance cluster, since it's coming soon and some of us will have to live with it...

You've really got to let this "inconsistency" canard go. They're telling new stories in new instances in an old area. That's it. And you've been whining about it for 3 days. Literally just get over it.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

If we take SSG at their word in regards to having another 15 years worth of stories, and we look at that they've put out around 30-35ish(depending on how much you count Yondershire, Angle, Wildwood, and Azanulbizar as full zones) zones in the 15 years since release, we can expect likely a similar level of new zones since the following 15 years(assuming they make it to 30). Counting new Gondor and Umbar as 2 zones, what would you think the other 30 or so zones should be?

Honestly I can come up with about 50 zones worth of new areas to add just in the western part of Middle Earth, not counting Rhun, Khand, Harad(outside Umbar and the path connecting to Harondor), or any flashback zones to Numenor or Beleriand, myself.

*edit*
Thinking about just filling out the maps we have now, I think i can get it to about 35

Gondor

1. Gondor post war(Minas Tirith, Pelennor fields, South Ithilien)
2. White Mountains
3. Anfalas
4. Tolfalas
5. Harondor
6. Nindalf

Mordor

1. Nurn
2. Lithlad

Rohan

1. Deep Fangorn
2. Brown Lands
3. Emyn Muil

Rhovanion

1. Deep Mirkwood
2. Middle Mirkwood
3. Fields of Celduin
4. Barding Lands
5. Dorwinion
6. Heathlands

Forodwaith

1. Forodwaith

Southlands

1. Umbar
2. 2 maps connecting Umbar to Harondor

Eriador

1. South Farthing
2. Shire(scouring)
3. Grey Havens + Tower Hills
4. Forlindon
5. Harlindon
6. Western Enedwaith
7. Southern Enedwaith
8. Minhiriath
9. Eryn Vorn
10. Northern Ered Luin
11. Southern Ered Luin
12. Lune Rushes
13. Kallioita
14. Lindon Reach

this would fill out all of the remaining spots in the Gondor, Mordor, Rohan, Rhovanion, and Eriador, maps, and include space for Umbar and its connection to Gondor.

[TesalionLortus]

Oh no, I'm not going to even attempt that. Taking all the unexpected additions into account and them becoming "ambitious" only just now... it is literally impossible to predict anything for X years into the future or how much more ambitious they may become xD

You've really got to let this "inconsistency" canard go. They're telling new stories in new instances in an old area. That's it. And you've been whining about it for 3 days. Literally just get over it.

... I wonder why so many people at the forum can't get over same same things that are whined about on here, in no insightful quire rude terms, for years on end and dominating almost every thread. And I can't do that for 3 days because you're uncomfortable or something, or just don't care? Bah! Plus, I might be a bit dramatic (because it did really rub me the wrong way so no wonder!), but what I always try to do is explain why I feel that way and why it does influence my enjoyment of this world and this game. So, if you want more such inconsistencies on more regular basis, perhaps, then be my guest, but this world won't be the same anymore in X years and that's its biggest strength, so would be a great shame. Even if you don't care (or even if most on this forum don't, which is still a minority I guess) consistency in fictional worlds does matter. I'm not just screaming "Scenario is a bad world designer and I hate him!" here, in fact I said he is amazing, which is precisely why this mishap stands out even more and we've been staring at this screenshot in bewilderment wondering what went wrong (I and the other player from RL). So I hope Scenario doesn't mind my whining and can even understand where I'm coming from I believe a creator's urge to do something differently for whatever reason must be constrained sometimes to respect what the world has grown to be and what was the original lore/art intention (which it clearly wasn't for Carn Dum to be this perfect, functional fortress with heavy walls, and yeah, that giant Guldur tower does not belong and can't believe nobody pointed that out - if nobody can say a bad word willing to just get over it because "that's Scenario and we love him!" then that's exactly why Scenario might need my whining ).

[Elmagor]

Even if it was just the old Carn Dum made part of public space, like they've done with Trestlebridge, and used for a few lead-up quests (behind the gate or side door only accessible from lvl 140) and then a new pathway opened to the West, leading up to a new small section that has the entrance to the new instances (and maybe, someday, then that path could eventually connect to new path and brand new landmass sometime in the far away future). Now, that's the thing I would be in love with... not redoing Carn Dum in such awkward, needless fashion and needlessly introducing internal inconsistency to the existing world. But well, maybe it can still happen someday... and these two paths may be opened... in the real Carn Dum... regardless of that alternate one existing as an instance cluster, since it's coming soon and some of us will have to live with it...

Angmar have problems with lags long before Gundabad was introduced (maybe ongoing work on Gundabad connected with Angmar lead to born of that lags). We already have lags on Bree because old Bree wasn't removed and new Bree was placed on old Bree, and have lags on MT. No reason to change already existing Carn Dum, they can just change portal leading to instance on Angmar Landscape, and that portal bring us to Carn Dum 2.0

[TesalionLortus]

No reason to change already existing Carn Dum, they can just change portal leading to instance on Angmar Landscape, and that portal bring us to Carn Dum 2.0

Well, my entire point was that they *shouldn't* change it, maybe give us someday a public version of the original Carn Dum, if that makes sense and there is opportunity for it, because, say, they're filling that Angmar-Forochel gap (which means they would have to move the OG instanced space, like they did with Trestlebridge, which doesn't introduce lag, and copy it back as a public one, accessed behind a lvl requirement side gate, but still keep the main portal entrance as an instance portal, like it is now).

I don't care as much about exploring Carn Dum 2.0 on landscape, since it seems like a complete mismatch/something else, and this design wouldn't probably even fit with some of the SoA quest text either (seeing how it doesn't even have a Slave Pens below it?).

[Hierona]

Now, THIS is what we want and love (or at least some among us who care, because sometimes I get this feeling like many don't as long as you throw any end game instances at them). And they did noticed which was even mentioned in the stream by Sev - expanding existing landmass and growing the existing rich world, that's what we love. Plus, giving a little polish/additions to old places where they're really needed, sure. Not really... seeing present day alternative takes of the same present day places redone with new/not exactly fitting assets/ in entirely different way, which only serves to cheapen and disjoint the existing world (the old Carn Dum is a ruined place in a bad shape, repaired in messy iron fashion, and its collapsed bridge is literally secured on multiple support pillars... but the new one from the new cluster seems... like a solid stone fortress with a bridge in good shape, as if it was in the Witch-king's prime, A Tale of Yore type of thing and not at all the LOTRO's TA version from SoA...)

Many people care for the landscape, it is just that the number of instances have been really lacking. To say people who want to have fun in a game don't care about it is a bit much no? The game is not only about landscape, instances, questing or other stuff, but combining those to make it a fun game for everyone. The old Carn Dûm is just old and it is showing. Better to update it and get a more interesting place out of it.

[TesalionLortus]

The old Carn Dûm is just old and it is showing. Better to update it and get a more interesting place out of it.

Which is not true because it's not showing, I find it very captivating and smartly designed (meaning art style and how it was built), and no, that's not due to rose-tinted glasses. And Dol Guldur assets Scenario used for it now... are just as old! Frankly So there is no truth to any of this at all, that it's somehow better now supposedly.

Unless you mean like the space - as in the instanced space, with boss rooms etc, for the purposes of the instance - that that is showing its age, then sure, maybe, though I believe not everyone would agree with you here. But in that case, there was nothing stopping Scenario from respecting the original concept behind the fortress (with assets that fit) and just making it more interesting/modern for the purposes of the instanced space, so different pathways, stages, modern environmental effects and newer smaller objects for more detail, but basically same assets for all the foundations, towers and whatnot, same look. What he built looks more like a "Tales of Yore - The Witch-king of Angmar Rises" timeframe but achieved with Dol Guldur assets rather than any fitting ones. Not the ruined place of Third Age (of which only the main keep was in relatively good shape, if you pay attention), given in mockery to the corrupted king of Gondor to rule over as a steward, but relatively - one of the worst of Sauron's fortresses that he probably didn't care as much about, which means a bunch of rebel hill-men and rangers were capable of effectively toppling its False King and significantly reducing the threat. It all had meaning, in that way - from the design to assets used to the lore behind it and its main antagonist. You can't tell me that that's "nothing"

[Phantion]

Which is not true because it's not showing, I find it very captivating and smartly designed (meaning art style and how it was built), and no, that's not due to rose-tinted glasses. And Dol Guldur assets Scenario used for it now... are just as old! Frankly So there is no truth to any of this at all, that it's somehow better now supposedly.

Unless you mean like the space - as in the instanced space, with boss rooms etc, for the purposes of the instance - that that is showing its age, then sure, maybe, though I believe not everyone would agree with you here. But in that case, there was nothing stopping Scenario from respecting the original concept behind the fortress (with assets that fit) and just making it more interesting/modern for the purposes of the instanced space, so different pathways, stages, modern environmental effects and newer smaller objects for more detail, but basically same assets for all the foundations, towers and whatnot, same look. What he built looks more like a "Tales of Yore - The Witch-king of Angmar Rises" timeframe but achieved with Dol Guldur assets rather than any fitting ones. Not the ruined place of Third Age (of which only the main keep was in relatively good shape, if you pay attention), given in mockery to the corrupted king of Gondor to rule over as a steward, but relatively - one of the worst of Sauron's fortresses that he probably didn't care as much about, which means a bunch of rebel hill-men and rangers were capable of effectively toppling its False King and significantly reducing the threat. It all had meaning, in that way - from the design to assets used to the lore behind it and its main antagonist. You can't tell me that that's "nothing"

I largely agree with you. But I have to admit: there's 1 thing that's always bugged me about Angmarim walls and towers, by and large, in CD (*not the Castle of the Witch-King but all the surrounding buildings, gates, etc.).

They just don't feel large enough to me. I'm talking about all the Barad Gularan-esque towers that look so small and thin they look purely decorative and not functional to mount any kind of defense. Unrealistic. You could barely fit a single NPC's body in some of CD's towers and gate-house buildings. That's always annoyed me.

So I get and appreciate what Scenario's trying to do here - though I think it needs a thorough repaint in the Angmarim style and, also, that the original Castle of the Witch-King should be preserved as much as possible. But having more realistically sized gates and towers you could more readily imagine armies manning? That's a good thing. Current CD, by and large, could barely fit Hobbit archers inside its towers - other than in the Castle of the WK.

Harder to describe without screenshots- but you head into CD and look around- and pay attention to the relative sizes of towers and walls. I'm thinking of the areas directly south of the CD instance entrance, especially in the open game-world. Then remind yourself of . . . Helm's Deep, Rammas Echor, and yes, Dol Guldor: which tend to have a more appropriate scale to envision a whole army living and functioning inside those fortifications. I know it's supposed to be ruined and what-not since Glorfindel thrashed the place - but . . .

I guess I'm just trying to say that the - scale - of Angmarim walls and towers hasn't really aged that well. So much of CD just feels decorative to me, not really lived-in, aside from the "evil Bree-ish buildings." Compare it with, say, Cardolan's more recent ruins; the Devs really worked hard to envision those ruins as "people once lived here" sorts of places instead of a bunch of decorations. They feel more true to the scale of what they aim to represent. Same with Caras Gelebren; comparing it with the original Mirobel is like night and day.

But I do agree: they should maintain the more original Carn Dum look. There are also these Dol Guldorish towers on the walls of Imlad Morgul that also make little sense; we never go in them, they don't use the same Mordor stone as Barad-dur and the like, and they just feel out of place (*you can see them clearly from either version of South Ithilien).

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

They just don't feel large enough to me. I'm talking about all the Barad Gularan-esque towers that look so small and thin they look purely decorative and not functional to mount any kind of defense. Unrealistic. You could barely fit a single NPC's body in some of CD's towers and gate-house buildings. That's always annoyed me.

Current CD, by and large, could barely fit Hobbit archers inside its towers - other than in the Castle of the WK.

Phantion, come back to Earth! Last time I checked, I thought the very same thing about most of Gondorian, Arnorian and Mordor towers and spires (the decorative kind, which are aplenty). Even the Towers of the Teeth or Black Gate itself might appear as unrealistic tiny jokes. Isengard? Smallish!

In part, that's because these buildings aren't always necessarily "real-sized" and in part, yes, because they have a decorative, cultural functions. Not every single keep/dwelling of such civilizations is built as a powerful keep to withstand a great siege and serve as a kickass fortress.

I know it's supposed to be ruined and what-not since Glorfindel thrashed the place - but . . .

Which is why it should never really regain its "functional for armies and legions and catapults on walls" splendor, because if it truly did, like Scenario is now trying to do, well, realistically that's game over for Eriador I guess :P You would need an army out of Rohan or Gondor to lay a difficult siege to drive them all out! And they could still retreat behind these perfectly functional parapets and bold towers, section by section... VERY hard to siege... in that mountains... Easier to starve them out I guess, but considering there might be some hidden tunnels, again, not easy.

I guess I'm just trying to say that the - scale - of Angmarim walls and towers hasn't really aged that well. So much of CD just feels decorative to me, not really lived-in, aside from the "evil Bree-ish buildings."

Bingo. That's because they are supposed to be a decorative mumbo evil iron jambo built by the Angmarim on top of what was ruins. Investigate the assets and how they're used - you can notice these are very worn grey walls up to a certain point and then they're always continued as these iron elements, spikes, almost "garbage iron towers" added on top in no organized fashion. I say garbage but what I actually mean is not that they look bad or utterly unrealistic (the assets are very nice, with the iron details on them), just that they aren't a work of some brilliant architect capable of designing a great fortress with solid fundaments and bold walls. And one could assume that this Angmar didn't really have resources for such a project either, so there is that.

The actual sizes of structures are right sizes, for things like gates and arches, even impressive. It's just... not really a well-designed functional fortress maintained by a powerful kingdom ready to wage war or mount defense against another powerful kingdom such as Arnor and Gondor. This Angmar aren't that, it doesn't even need to be. Who was going to besiege them? Hobbit army launching forks from catapults?

Compare it with, say, Cardolan's more recent ruins; the Devs really worked hard to envision those ruins as "people once lived here" sorts of places instead of a bunch of decorations. They feel more true to the scale of what they aim to represent. Same with Caras Gelebren; comparing it with the original Mirobel is like night and day.

They're all very neat (and they did work for that region) but they're also very condensed, and VERY decorative as well, so most of them don't really even feel THAT defensible to me. Not as defensible as Minas Tirith or Foronost or even the OG Carn Dum perhaps (the OG Carn Dum, like Fornost, has A LOT of wall sections, so even if you just man all these small iron towers and organize archers on these walls - and you don't need badass stairs for that, can just use ladders, get on roofs... and that's realistic too - that position in OG Carn Dum, albeit a bit messy, would be far more defensible than some of these fancy looking baroque Arnorian/Gondorian keeps. Bu the infiltration and taking their leader down method, since OG Carn Dum was so messy, was their biggest weakness and why it was plausible. Whereas there is a reason why the devs had us go into Dol Guldur in skirmishes (and added these in the first place) with Galadhrim army at our back... because it just wouldn't be realistic to just infiltrate such a big, well secured place, once used as Sauron's stronghold, well-functioning and still maintained, through a sewer or a badly guarded gate with a key that you obtained... I mean, self-evident, no? Dol Guldur towers aren't that big and its walls as impressive because that's the only realistic way ever, they're like that because they're sections of one of Sauron's most powerful fortress. The ravaged "renovated" Carn Dum is not that kind of fortress

I mean, I love it when Scenario tries to be impressive and do it like a "lived-in" very functional space - where it makes sense, and it usually does, especially if they design from scratch, in both narrative and design. But where it doesn't need to be perfectly functional nor as impressive... well then, then it doesn't need to be and it shouldn't be. Less impressive spaces, both in size and their organization, can be very realistic too given a proper context, and it made perfect sense for SoA Carn Dum to be like that. And man, was it not impressive in its evilness? Still one of my favorite SoA places, design wise

There are also these Dol Guldorish towers on the walls of Imlad Morgul that also make little sense; we never go in them, they don't use the same Mordor stone as Barad-dur and the like, and they just feel out of place (*you can see them clearly from either version of South Ithilien).

Yeah, these are a bit weird too, but not exactly as off, given that Minas Morgul has similar color (for its evil parts) and they exist kind of separately from Minas Morgul itself, so it works and isn't as jarring or anything.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Thinking about the new Gondor map, what if it is just a reverse version of "March of the King", with South Ithilien instead of North Ithilien?

It could have us starting from Minas Tirith, going through South Ithilien, and finding the main road into Harad still blocked. We would circle back around to the port of Harlond, and use boats there to travel to Umbar by sea. IIRC Harlond is where Aragon docked the Umbar ships he used to attack with, so they still should be there unless they sunk them all for no reason. Using the captured Umbar ships to sail back to Umbar in some sort of disguise could make sense.

Then after arriving in Umbar, and doing whatever we need to do there, we make our way back north by land coming up into Harondor and connecting back to South Ithilien.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

Which is not true because it's not showing, I find it very captivating and smartly designed (meaning art style and how it was built), and no, that's not due to rose-tinted glasses. And Dol Guldur assets Scenario used for it now... are just as old! Frankly So there is no truth to any of this at all, that it's somehow better now supposedly.

Unless you mean like the space - as in the instanced space, with boss rooms etc, for the purposes of the instance - that that is showing its age, then sure, maybe, though I believe not everyone would agree with you here. But in that case, there was nothing stopping Scenario from respecting the original concept behind the fortress (with assets that fit) and just making it more interesting/modern for the purposes of the instanced space, so different pathways, stages, modern environmental effects and newer smaller objects for more detail, but basically same assets for all the foundations, towers and whatnot, same look. What he built looks more like a "Tales of Yore - The Witch-king of Angmar Rises" timeframe but achieved with Dol Guldur assets rather than any fitting ones. Not the ruined place of Third Age (of which only the main keep was in relatively good shape, if you pay attention), given in mockery to the corrupted king of Gondor to rule over as a steward, but relatively - one of the worst of Sauron's fortresses that he probably didn't care as much about, which means a bunch of rebel hill-men and rangers were capable of effectively toppling its False King and significantly reducing the threat. It all had meaning, in that way - from the design to assets used to the lore behind it and its main antagonist. You can't tell me that that's "nothing"

I wouldn’t mind if they remade Carn Dum and got rid of the old one - they did the same with Bree, and I didn’t mind that either! I guess it might be a challenge while retaining the old instance though - so maybe best to just add this as a new element of Carn Dum to the north west?

[Elmagor]

Thinking about the new Gondor map, what if it is just a reverse version of "March of the King", with South Ithilien instead of North Ithilien?

It could have us starting from Minas Tirith, going through South Ithilien, and finding the main road into Harad still blocked. We would circle back around to the port of Harlond, and use boats there to travel to Umbar by sea. IIRC Harlond is where Aragon docked the Umbar ships he used to attack with, so they still should be there unless they sunk them all for no reason. Using the captured Umbar ships to sail back to Umbar in some sort of disguise could make sense.

Then after arriving in Umbar, and doing whatever we need to do there, we make our way back north by land coming up into Harondor and connecting back to South Ithilien.

I don't get why people panic what we don't have enough size on world map. In last 5 years, SSG already replace region maps like Gondor, Rohan, Eriador. Gondor region map don't have place for Umbar? Ok, how about Mordor region map? They need change it anyway when we reach Rhun, Nurn or other parts of Mordor

[Hierona]

Which is not true because it's not showing, I find it very captivating and smartly designed (meaning art style and how it was built), and no, that's not due to rose-tinted glasses. And Dol Guldur assets Scenario used for it now... are just as old! Frankly So there is no truth to any of this at all, that it's somehow better now supposedly.

Unless you mean like the space - as in the instanced space, with boss rooms etc, for the purposes of the instance - that that is showing its age, then sure, maybe, though I believe not everyone would agree with you here. But in that case, there was nothing stopping Scenario from respecting the original concept behind the fortress (with assets that fit) and just making it more interesting/modern for the purposes of the instanced space, so different pathways, stages, modern environmental effects and newer smaller objects for more detail, but basically same assets for all the foundations, towers and whatnot, same look. What he built looks more like a "Tales of Yore - The Witch-king of Angmar Rises" timeframe but achieved with Dol Guldur assets rather than any fitting ones. Not the ruined place of Third Age (of which only the main keep was in relatively good shape, if you pay attention), given in mockery to the corrupted king of Gondor to rule over as a steward, but relatively - one of the worst of Sauron's fortresses that he probably didn't care as much about, which means a bunch of rebel hill-men and rangers were capable of effectively toppling its False King and significantly reducing the threat. It all had meaning, in that way - from the design to assets used to the lore behind it and its main antagonist. You can't tell me that that's "nothing"

The architecture is showing it's age. It's boring to run through, so hopefully they can make it better and make it like a real city. And I mean use Gundabad assets, and the stuff they used in Car Bronach. That was an area that looked solid, Angmar is just outdated.

But even than, just stop your complaining about it. SSG did great with Dimrill dale when it was remade with Azanulbizar, and they will do it with Carn Dum, and that is it. Why be so rude and demeaning when you have not the slightest idea what they are gonna do with it. We don't even know what part of the city will be revamped, or where and how you get there. Maybe they make an area north of the Carn Dum ranger camp and let us explore in that direction, who knows.

Thinking about the new Gondor map, what if it is just a reverse version of "March of the King", with South Ithilien instead of North Ithilien?

It could have us starting from Minas Tirith, going through South Ithilien, and finding the main road into Harad still blocked. We would circle back around to the port of Harlond, and use boats there to travel to Umbar by sea. IIRC Harlond is where Aragon docked the Umbar ships he used to attack with, so they still should be there unless they sunk them all for no reason. Using the captured Umbar ships to sail back to Umbar in some sort of disguise could make sense.

Then after arriving in Umbar, and doing whatever we need to do there, we make our way back north by land coming up into Harondor and connecting back to South Ithilien.

I think indeed that they will start at Minas Tirith, maybe even Midsummer and continue from there to South Ithilien, no crossing in the south but with the road to Umbar. Could have some thick forest first and slowly see it change into desert. Heck, maybe they will just have a horse or boat (Pelargir) somewhere in the new Gondor which ports us close to Umbar.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

I don't get why people panic what we don't have enough size on world map. In last 5 years, SSG already replace region maps like Gondor, Rohan, Eriador. Gondor region map don't have place for Umbar? Ok, how about Mordor region map? They need change it anyway when we reach Rhun, Nurn or other parts of Mordor

Who said anything about panicking about space? I never even mentioned space.

Also, Rhun isn't part of Mordor. rhun is east of Mordor, and I suspect, given that all the Easterling refugee stuff happening up north, our connection to Rhun, should we ever go there(something I doubt to begin with) will be up there, not in Mordor.

[Elmagor]

Who said anything about panicking about space? I never even mentioned space.

Also, Rhun isn't part of Mordor. rhun is east of Mordor, and I suspect, given that all the Easterling refugee stuff happening up north, our connection to Rhun, should we ever go there(something I doubt to begin with) will be up there, not in Mordor.

Of course, I just want to mention what Gondor map don't need to be heavy edited for upcomping changes

[TesalionLortus]

The architecture is showing it's age. It's boring to run through, so hopefully they can make it better and make it like a real city. And I mean use Gundabad assets, and the stuff they used in Car Bronach. That was an area that looked solid, Angmar is just outdated.

I must live in a different reality because all of Car Broach assets were literally the old Carn Dum assets. "The architecture is showing it's age" because it was supposed to show its age and NOT be a real, as in well-maintained fortress (but was still a very functional city with Angmarim houses and whatnot). And if it is boring to run through just because it doesn't look exactly the same as Car Bronach (which is pretty much just a spire, not as big even compared with Carn Dum), then you have a weird definition of what's boring and what's not, since to me more variety is definitely less boring, rather than everything ruled by the same idea and premise (as in = a perfectly walled, strong, kickass citadel... which is not exactly lore-friendly for Third Age Carn Dum).

But even than, just stop your complaining about it. SSG did great with Dimrill dale when it was remade with Azanulbizar, and they will do it with Carn Dum, and that is it. Why be so rude and demeaning when you have not the slightest idea what they are gonna do with it. We don't even know what part of the city will be revamped, or where and how you get there. Maybe they make an area north of the Carn Dum ranger camp and let us explore in that direction, who knows.

I'm not rude. Unless rude = being critical of something and pointing out faults in your logic. I know what was changed, that it is to cover "reimagined" Carn Dum space through instances and what they're going to do with it because... I listened to the devs and Scenario and I looked at the screenshot done from bird's view that's evidently showing the entire thing... so that's a pretty solid idea right there

*sight* Dimrill Dale was basically expansion of land with new sections, nothing really got changed. Things just got added and made more detailed where they were needed to be, maybe a few things moved around, new passes. Yes, was definitely amazing work, but different situation. So that's different.

I wouldn’t mind if they remade Carn Dum and got rid of the old one - they did the same with Bree, and I didn’t mind that either!

*sight* They did that with Bree, yes, but the replacement conveyed almost perfectly the exact same idea that the old one did and there was no assets from another sets either. Overall better quality assets, a bit different color, but same form, shape, and everything constructed the same as the old one. So that's different.

so maybe best to just add this as a new element of Carn Dum to the north west?

Yes, fortress almost as powerful as Dol Guldur with kickass bold fortifications as an additional section of existing Carn Dum (that has the exact same layout, roughly, if you haven't noticed from the screenshot, so that would make it even more off when put next to each other) brought down by a small group of hillmen and rangers, no armies ever involved. Because that makes perfect sense... well, wouldn't make any for me!

Why do I feel like me and Phantion are the only ones (from those who commented on it anyway) who actually get some nuances and can discuss them in a reasonable manner, not just come up with examples that completely don't match the situation being discussed.

[TesalionLortus]

I don't get why people panic what we don't have enough size on world map. In last 5 years, SSG already replace region maps like Gondor, Rohan, Eriador. Gondor region map don't have place for Umbar? Ok, how about Mordor region map? They need change it anyway when we reach Rhun, Nurn or other parts of Mordor

It's not exactly outright panic but it is a concern about how the open world continuous space is going to look like. I do accept the fact there need to be some teleports and I would even have more of them for certain spots where it makes sense to make organic travel around maps easier (without swift travels). But yeah, when choosing where to have a region boundaries, there will always be some trade off in the form of these mountain walls and barriers with invisible walls.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

brought down by a small group of hillmen and rangers, no armies ever involved. Because that makes perfect sense... well, wouldn't make any for me!

Small forces of guerilla fighters taking down much larger/defend forces is something that happened many times.

[gildhur]

I wouldn’t mind if they remade Carn Dum and got rid of the old one - they did the same with Bree, and I didn’t mind that either! I guess it might be a challenge while retaining the old instance though - so maybe best to just add this as a new element of Carn Dum to the north west?

They've already said they're not changing the existing landscape or instance, only adding the new instances (with no new explorable landscape) in or around what's already there:

The instance cluster takes place in a re-imagined version of the city and does not replace the original, existing instance. It's a new piece of landscape/dungeons built with modern world design in mind.

Not outside of the instance spaces. But there will be plenty of space to grow in there in the future.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

I must live in a different reality because all of Car Broach assets were literally the old Carn Dum assets. "The architecture is showing it's age" because it was supposed to show its age and NOT be a real, as in well-maintained fortress (but was still a very functional city with Angmarim houses and whatnot). And if it is boring to run through just because it doesn't look exactly the same as Car Bronach (which is pretty much just a spire, not as big even compared with Carn Dum), then you have a weird definition of what's boring and what's not, since to me more variety is definitely less boring, rather than everything ruled by the same idea and premise (as in = a perfectly walled, strong, kickass citadel... which is not exactly lore-friendly for Third Age Carn Dum).





I'm not rude. Unless rude = being critical of something and pointing out faults in your logic. I know what was changed, that it is to cover "reimagined" Carn Dum space through instances and what they're going to do with it because... I listened to the devs and Scenario and I looked at the screenshot done from bird's view that's evidently showing the entire thing... so that's a pretty solid idea right there

*sight* Dimrill Dale was basically expansion of land with new sections, nothing really got changed. Things just got added and made more detailed where they were needed to be, maybe a few things moved around, new passes. Yes, was definitely amazing work, but different situation. So that's different.




*sight* They did that with Bree, yes, but the replacement conveyed almost perfectly the exact same idea that the old one did and there was no assets from another sets either. Overall better quality assets, a bit different color, but same form, shape, and everything constructed the same as the old one. So that's different.






Yes, fortress almost as powerful as Dol Guldur with kickass bold fortifications as an additional section of existing Carn Dum (that has the exact same layout, roughly, if you haven't noticed from the screenshot, so that would make it even more off when put next to each other) brought down by a small group of hillmen and rangers, no armies ever involved. Because that makes perfect sense... well, wouldn't make any for me!

Why do I feel like me and Phantion are the only ones (from those who commented on it anyway) who actually get some nuances and can discuss them in a reasonable manner, not just come up with examples that completely don't match the situation being discussed.

Just to be clear - this last sentence comes across as rather patronising and rude, whether you’d intended it to be or not.

Over the last year this thread has been a positive place where people can suggest their ideas for how they’d like to see the LOTRO world expanded, and you are one of those who have made positive contributions here.

However, you don’t have to include a put down alongside your views, nor make accusations of being unreasonable or not understanding nuances. This has happened on a few occasions further up the thread. Please just say you disagree, say why, then finish the post.

I won’t be engaging further on that element of what you’ve written, and would advise others not too either, as I do not want to see this thread descend into bickering about things not about the topic - but will be reporting this type of thing it if I see it again.

Back to the substantive issue of this thread, I take your point that a full on fortress wouldn’t make sense in some ways, given we’ve not got a full Golden Host supporting us in assaulting it as we did with Dol Guldur. However, the idea of a previously hidden part of Carn Dum which the hillmen/rangers have discovered after the ‘easier’ part of Carn Dum was discovered and defeated could be worked into a reasonable enough storyline, although it may seem a little contrived. Essentially, the main thing that I’m interested with here is that this newer Carn Dum features of the landscape and some attempt is made to help it makes sense. If they aren’t just revamping the existing one, then a secondary part would make the next most sense to me.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

They've already said they're not changing the existing landscape or instance, only adding the new instances (with no new explorable landscape) in or around what's already there:

That’s a shame - although it would be good if we could see the new parts and if it was tied in with a quest when in the original Carn Dum area to ensure that it was linked to the world, rather than being off in another dimension.

[MiniExpBounder]

I don't get why people panic what we don't have enough size on world map.

There is no panic involved.
Being committed to World-Building analysis, I voice my curiosity about the future of the development providing facts that may fuel a constructive discussion.

In last 5 years, SSG already replace region maps like Gondor, Rohan, Eriador.

Knowing what I know, I can not make sense of your statement about the last five years of development. Their process was just standard procedure, building the playable areas in free-usable lands.

Gondor region map don't have place for Umbar? Ok, how about Mordor region map? They need change it anyway when we reach Rhun, Nurn or other parts of Mordor

If R3 Region has no space for Umbar, since the R4 "Mordor" Region was made by duplicating the former, the spacing problem is the same. Note that such a "spacing problem" comprehend a physical and programming limit.
The solution would be of course to move all of the landscape in a North (plus West if they want some space for Nurn) direction.

Aside from having to deal with the change of coordinates, which would touch all of the geographical references in place for Quests, Spawn Points, Instanced Sessions, Teleports [...], they would also have to move all of the Mordor Instances in the Out of Bounds (if moving North) and both the versions of Mordor labelled as "End of all Things" and "Besieged" if moving West (wanting to retain some space for Anfalas in R4).

I stand very keen to witness the Road that the SSG team will take.

If you want to spend some time reasoning for yourself on such technical matters, just type "LotRO Heightmaps" in Google Pictures, and try to make sense of it.