Floon: Any chance that trip will actually use the trip animation again?

[LagunaD]

"Turbine don't have enough staff and resources"

I think that's what he basically said, while trying to spin it as something we as players should be happy about...

I appreciate Floon's willingness to respond, but his answer(s) still don't make a lot of sense to me:

Times 60, 70, 80 monsters. And then there are the monsters that can't visibly be tripped, so we need to indicate the trip via other means: now you have a skill that uses animation sometimes, and FX sometimes. In which case we then ask ourselves why it doesn't use the FX all the time, and yay, fewer animations to do on new monsters.

Um, because tripping something means it gets knocked down (if it can be knocked down)?

Seriously, every little savings we can find helps. And some of these savings are actually gameplay helpers, so there's that.

I agree with the others...helps who? It helps Turbine's bottom line by letting you spend less money to deliver a correspondingly diminished product, and then charging the same price you have been for a higher quality product.

Will LotRO be a text-interface MUD by the time we get to Mordor? Because, you know, every little savings helps...

[gildhur]

Trip doesn't actually trip anymore? But Ambush still does? /boggle

[Asheron86]

Times 60, 70, 80 monsters. And then there are the monsters that can't visibly be tripped, so we need to indicate the trip via other means: now you have a skill that uses animation sometimes, and FX sometimes. In which case we then ask ourselves why it doesn't use the FX all the time, and yay, fewer animations to do on new monsters.

Seriously, every little savings we can find helps. And some of these savings are actually gameplay helpers, so there's that.

lets just make the game where each class only has 1 skill and there are only 10 different monsters, that would save a lot of time.

[Swiftstrike]

Trip doesn't actually trip anymore? But Ambush still does? /boggle

Yes, see this thread (along with LOTROSystem's ridiculous cop out answers):

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=272627

But what about all those skills that other classes have that STILL knock down the enemy? If you are doing that animation anyway for other classes why change it special for us? Why was it less work to change Trip then to leave it alone? Sorry, Floon, but I still don't get your reasoning if these same animations are still being done for other skills just not ours.

If trip is really going to continue to look just like a plain old boring mez or stun can we have the name changed to something else because without the mob falling down we are NOT tripping it. I'm glad it's saving you work but this change, however small you think it is, diminishes the enjoyment of playing my favorite class.

This. Every mob already has a knocked down animation, as warden's ambush and guardian's Turn the Tables still employ a knockdown animation.

The reason Trip was changed was one of two things (or combination of both):

a) a misguided but well-intentioned attempt to make all FM's "look the same" for "previously confused players." Personally I don't know what the confusion is about: if it's an FM there is a wheel on your screen; otherwise it's not.

b) a deliberate effort to nerf the Trip + Exploit Opening chain stun while passing it off as a "cosmetic only change"

Floon, let me make one last appeal to both your artistic and rational sides: how does it look elegant or make any sense if a mob gets Ambushed by a Warden (knockdown state) and then a burglar comes in and trips the mob before the knockdown expires and forces them to their feet for the regular stun animation?

Tripping a fallen mob = forcing them to stand up??? No sense at all. I see LOTROSystems definitely succeeded in reducing confusion.

[floon]

lets just make the game where each class only has 1 skill and there are only 10 different monsters, that would save a lot of time.

This is why it's hard to give straight answers: you guys understand *in the abstract* that we have to make choices, but when you're told about a particular choice, it's always the wrong one. I was being flip saying "yay": I'm not saying you should be happy about it, I'm saying that there are decision paths that folks go down when changes are made, and "greater development efficiency" is a virtue a lot of the time.

So many times, on so many things, we say, "Damn the torpedoes, blow the budget!" and go all out on things. We go *so* all-out that things happen like, "we don't deliver all of Lothlorien with MoM on release because we just can't get it done to the level we want" and we have to spend a lot more time, and release it in Book 7. That cost us, but we knew that Caras Galadhon was going to be around for a long, long time, and we wanted it to be Right.

We just don't say that on things like "redo all the icons!" or the like. And when we find areas to be efficient, we try to do so. In any case, I was under the impression that Trip had a unique anim. I'll check the scripts tomorrow, and make sure my reasoning is correct (or not).

[bennyw2784]

This is why it's hard to give straight answers: you guys understand *in the abstract* that we have to make choices, but when you're told about a particular choice, it's always the wrong one. I was being flip saying "yay": I'm not saying you should be happy about it, I'm saying that there are decision paths that folks go down when changes are made, and "greater development efficiency" is a virtue a lot of the time.

So many times, on so many things, we say, "Damn the torpedoes, blow the budget!" and go all out on things. We go *so* all-out that things happen like, "we don't deliver all of Lothlorien with MoM on release because we just can't get it done to the level we want" and we have to spend a lot more time, and release it in Book 7. That cost us, but we knew that Caras Galadhon was going to be around for a long, long time, and we wanted it to be Right.

We just don't say that on things like "redo all the icons!" or the like. And when we find areas to be efficient, we try to do so. In any case, I was under the impression that Trip had a unique anim. I'll check the scripts tomorrow, and make sure my reasoning is correct (or not).

I appreciate your willingness to look into it...but I really must re-iterate the point of all my fellow burglars. 'Tripping' a mob was one of the things that really produced one of those WOW factors. I loved tripping helchgam, the watcher etc. I dunno why, but aurochs in the north downs seem to INVITE trip by their very existence. It LOVED using this skill...now, it's just a means to an FM.

If you're going to remove the 'knockdown' animation, (and I'm not advocating this by ANY means) do it across ALL classes. Guards/Wardens included. But since you already HAVE 'knockdown' animations for, Wargs, Wardens, Guards, why NOT Burglars? I mean, it might be 'slightly' more expensive on your end, but delivers O so much enjoyment on the customer end. Isn't THAT worth it?

[Giolon]

So many times, on so many things, we say, "Damn the torpedoes, blow the budget!" and go all out on things. We go *so* all-out that things happen like, "we don't deliver all of Lothlorien with MoM on release because we just can't get it done to the level we want" and we have to spend a lot more time, and release it in Book 7.

And sometimes, you spend so much time going all out that, well damn, you just have to charge your loyal players and fans an extra $20 to see the end of the book started in the MoM expansion.

I hope that doesn't sound too flippant because I am excited about the new stuff that is coming along with it. It just fit too well after Floon's comment. (Don't hate me Floon!)

[Galahadur]

(...)

In any case, I was under the impression that Trip had a unique anim. I'll check the scripts tomorrow, and make sure my reasoning is correct (or not).

Trip used the same animation has the Warden's ambush and the Guardian's To The King knockdown.

So, i don't know if they changed the To the King knockdown animation but i'm sure (just tested it) that the Warden's Ambush Knockdown animation is exactly the same as old trip.

[Goibhnie]

Also like to add that Marbles also had the same animation as trip.

[Potvin]

Oh, I understand why it was done. I just contend that it diminishes the game in a bigger way then you might think.

Part of why I loved this game back in SoA so much was the little things you would run into everywhere. It's why I enjoy the shire so much.

this. Back when burglars actually were underpowered, we still enjoyed the little things like trip animation. There's more to games then mashing buttons, some of us actually enjoy the animations.

bring back trip. just continue make marbles do the same thing as trip.

[Potvin]

Also like to add that Marbles also had the same animation as trip.

ok, this confirms it for me. I have never really used marbles much.

[Mystarr]

Also like to add that Marbles also had the same animation as trip.

Ummmm... I almost hate to mention it, but they overlooked marbles when they "fixed" the conjunction starter animations. Marbles still use the knockdown animation. (I LOVE using marbles on the drake in the bounty quests )

Floon, thanks for replying and checking on the animations. I understand the need to manage time/resources but since you guys are already doing the knockdown animation for other skills (warden ambush etc) it doesnt look like it would be extra work to make a skill called "trip" use that animation too.

I also understand if you guys feel strongly about consistent conjunction starter animations. If that is the case, then just swap the names of trip and startling twist and give new trip (formerly known as startling twist) the knockdown animation. If you really want to be consistent you could "fix" the burg items by swapping the names on stun dust and marbles. New stun dust (formerly known as marbles) would start the conj and use the "stars over the head" conj starter animation and new marbles (formerly known as stun dust) would knock the mob down and of course use the knockdown animation.

[Talfryn]

But what about all those skills that other classes have that STILL knock down the enemy? If you are doing that animation anyway for other classes why change it special for us? Why was it less work to change Trip then to leave it alone? Sorry, Floon, but I still don't get your reasoning if these same animations are still being done for other skills just not ours.

If trip is really going to continue to look just like a plain old boring mez or stun can we have the name changed to something else because without the mob falling down we are NOT tripping it. I'm glad it's saving you work but this change, however small you think it is, diminishes the enjoyment of playing my favorite class.

Amen. Since the animation is still there for other classes, please restore it for Burgs. This game is feeling flatter and flatter with the removal of things like this.

[LagunaD]

This is why it's hard to give straight answers: you guys understand *in the abstract* that we have to make choices, but when you're told about a particular choice, it's always the wrong one.

I appreciate and respect your willingness to give real answers. And I wouldn't say "always", but "too often".

From another thread:

A simple for instance: I love my dwarf guard, and I love most of the hauberks, but I hated the hauberks on the dwarves, because their bowlegged idle stance made the hauberks really flare out in an ugly way. The center strip down the middle became this horrible pyramid below the waist. So I asked the animators if they could adjust the idle pose of dwarves to not be so bow-legged.

They did it, but had to adjust a hojillion animations to do so: every emote, and every animation that goes into or out of the idle stance. It ended up being a largish amount of work for something really pretty minor and simple.

./facepalm

This sort of admission may be why people find it hard to swallow your very reasonable-sounding explanation. I'm guessing you play your dwarf guard more than you play your burglar (if you even have one)...

Why are you worrying about dwarf hauberks, LM staves, emotes on horseback and having contests to add new horses to the game while at the same time trashing the immersive quality of one of a class's signature skills?

[FutenCake]

Amen. Since the animation is still there for other classes, please restore it for Burgs. This game is feeling flatter and flatter with the removal of things like this.

Flatter, and flatter.

That's the problem here Floon. Maybe trip, in and of itself, isn't that big a deal, but when you look at it as the icing on the cake of our discontent maybe it will make sense.

Moria came out, and for Burglars everything took a nose dive.
1) Conjunctions were greatly diminished.
2) The B/P/E nerf hit us pretty hard .
3) The damage scaling was a boon, until that was chopped back, then we were worse off then ever.
4) Our new skills weren't even vaguely finished, they were so bad it was laughable.
5) Legendary items, yes they are a disappointment for every class, but for burglars in particular they add basically nothing to our class that is Fun. Some more damage, yippee.
6) The never ending Stealth/HiPS bugs.
7) The content being geared toward pure DPS, making the bulk of what we did at the time bordering on worthless. Sure this changed, eventually...

Mix all that in with a major shift in our role as a class when our class skills were finally finished, MONTHS after release, and only because we raised a major ruckus about it.

Then lets add the icing: Removing Enrage from the Turtle raid and Taking away our Trip.

So, if you think this is overreaction, sure it is, but in perspective? In perspective it seems like the cherry on top of a string of disappointment, after disappointment on top of delay after delay.

Things like the trip animation could get a giggle out of me, even when things were looking really down in the rest of the game. It took another little glimmer out of this game, taking us just that one little baby step further away from why I started playing this game in SoA in the first place. It's a sad really.

[Cleo256]

Trip used the same animation has the Warden's ambush and the Guardian's To The King knockdown.

So, i don't know if they changed the To the King knockdown animation but i'm sure (just tested it) that the Warden's Ambush Knockdown animation is exactly the same as old trip.

To the King no longer does the knockdown animation. My Guard uses it all the time while soloing, and I used to love stunning an enemy with Overwhelm and then knocking them down with To the King. It was even more awesome than Trip. But TTK is just a stun animation now.

[Thane9]

What I'd like some insight on is why are you "fixing" things that aren't broken? And this is likely to stray from speaking directly to the focus of the thread witch is just the animation...so sorry about that.

The whole CJ mechanic IMHO didn't need this whole overhaul except for some snazzy little 1:10000000 CJs situations in FG. Yet is has had a HUGE impact both visually, mechanically, and in terms of "fun".

It's really impacted PvMp gameplay, for the worse IMHO. It's made burgs in PvE feel like you took away their candy. And I personally just haven't seen any upside. Server performance is no better than SoA. (although it's not at its worse anymore) Basically I'm at a loss for why the whole mess of changes were made.

The same can go for numerous other combat mechanic changes in MoM and apparently coming in SoM.

I mourn the loss of the autoattack cadence, and that's a change that hasn't even gone in yet. The feel of combat has shifted dramatically since SoA, and it seems that it's going to continue to shift. And so far...it "feels" far less fun, less uniquely "LotRO" and I just don't see the gains that should be reaped for paying the cost elsewhere.

I know this sentiment is shared by a lot of people, many of whom no longer play LotRO, or have scaled back their play considerably in favour of other games. But I'd have been more happy with the gameplay if we never had the level increase to 60 or had RKs and Wardens introduces, and MOST importantly not had the sweeping changes to the combat mechanics that have left the "feel" of combat flat.

/shrug

I desperately want this game to succeed. In terms of fun for your customers, i.e. ME, and in financial terms for Turbine so you can continue to develop and make asweome games. But I'm not particularly thrilled with many of the shifts we've seen in gameplay in the past year. And I'm really worried about SoM for similar reasons.

[Thane9]

Moria came out, and for Burglars everything took a nose dive.

Champs have a similar list given the mechanics changes in MoM. I assure you, you're not alone.

[FutenCake]

Champs have a similar list given the mechanics changes in MoM. I assure you, you're not alone.

Oh certainly, I didn't mean to imply that this was a burglar only problem. Honestly the champion stance change angered me more then the trip/turtle nerfs.

I have discussed this at length with my friends who play the game and the conclusion was pretty much "Why can't they just leave well enough alone". So many of these changes seem to be for minor reasons, but have a large impact on the fun people have with the game. So why are they made?

At this point almost everyone I know has quit the game. I am playing once every other week or so when my group wants to get together to chat and level some alts a bit. Its really sad, we all hope they can turn it around. Bring the fun back. Maybe shift priorities from "Balance", back to Fun? Because since the release of Moria, fun seems to have really taken a back seat in this game.

One other thing: The upcoming radiance nerf is a prime example of what we are talking about. Adding some minor bonuses outside of raiding doesn't hurt anyone, and its nice, it adds some variety. By no means is it necessary to playing the game (the bonus I mean, obviously the radiance is needed for raiding). So why are they removing it?

Those who have radiance will be annoyed, those who do not will be unaffected. It seems like a lose/no change proposition, so why do it? The champion nerf was basically the same thing, in the end it just ticked a bunch of people off and really didn't change anything.

[Goibhnie]

Ummmm... I almost hate to mention it, but they overlooked marbles when they "fixed" the conjunction starter animations. Marbles still use the knockdown animation. (I LOVE using marbles on the drake in the bounty quests )

Hrmm, for some reason I'm not seeing that animation with marbles on some mobs. Will have to try on the drake/watcher at some point for some old school fun.

[greeentea]

Honestly the champion stance change angered me more then the trip/turtle nerfs.

I was unaware that the turtle was nerfed.

To tell you the truth I have to disagree with your whole post, I think the only people still playing are the ones who only ever did it for fun. But won't be for much longer if this behavior and lack of caring keeps up.

[FutenCake]

I was unaware that the turtle was nerfed.

The turtle was made to be immune to a basic Burglar ability: Enrage.

To tell you the truth I have to disagree with your whole post, I think the only people still playing are the ones who only ever did it for fun. But won't be for much longer if this behavior and lack of caring keeps up.

Yeah, my group of friends crested past the "much longer" stage a while back. After the most recent book everyone just sort of gave up hope for the game getting better and went off to find other things to play.

[Talfryn]

...I think the only people still playing are the ones who only ever did it for fun. But won't be for much longer if this behavior and lack of caring keeps up.

This sentiment is shared by a great many folks I know. If a game has had all the fun sucked out of it, what's the point in continuing to play it? Hope, that one day it will be fun again? Most of us have been going on this hope for some time, but it will not last much longer I'm afraid.

Count me as one who really wants to see this game succeed. It's why I am still here in spite of the rough ride since MoM. This is my first and only MMO, and I dislike intensely the idea of abandoning it. But when it is all frustration and zero fun, what else is there to do?

Turbine, please love this game again, and please love all the classes you created. It feels as if you really hate some of them. Some simple UNDOs would go a long way. And just because something is easier doesn't make it right. It's hard to make a game good.

[ANTNY25]

Times 60, 70, 80 monsters. And then there are the monsters that can't visibly be tripped, so we need to indicate the trip via other means: now you have a skill that uses animation sometimes, and FX sometimes. In which case we then ask ourselves why it doesn't use the FX all the time, and yay, fewer animations to do on new monsters.

Seriously, every little savings we can find helps. And some of these savings are actually gameplay helpers, so there's that.

For you floon it's a new avatar

I don't know if it's copyrighted here's the site i got it from
http://www.squidoo.com/Tin-Wall-Signs

[Khafar]

This is why it's hard to give straight answers: you guys understand *in the abstract* that we have to make choices, but when you're told about a particular choice, it's always the wrong one.

Usually people aren't told about a particular choice, though. What they're told is that "we had tough choices to make, and X was cut or scaled back to free up time for Other Good Features". So they're being asked to sacrifice something specific they know they'd enjoy in order to get something vague and unknown that they're unsure they would.

If the gameplay systems guys were to say something like "We decided to put work on skirmishes ahead of work on PvMP in the near term so we could deliver a first-rate skirmishes feature for SoM"... you'd get a lot of cheers (and of course some jeers too). But at least people would know what the tradeoff was. In that particular case, I think it would be likely that more people would think you'd made a good decision than would think you were all morons .

All of which is why I'd love to see a features survey that let people pick a basket of features they'd like to see, giving them a list of items with their costs in "points". If players had to spend those limited number of points themselves, I suspect they'd often pick fairly differently than if they got to just sit back and say "we want it all", blissfully unaware of what it costs to do anything.

Khafar