End Game Loot, Lootboxes, Update 23, and Beyond

[Thulenbrak]

In other words:

Want the best gear? Then raid.

Want the second best gear? Credit card and/or content.

Seems to be the standard MMO strategy lately.

[Derquin]

So we finally played through Mordor contest to open up the dailies only to have keys / key slivers removed. Much like hitting Mordor after gear was removed from lanscape…

How much Motes of Enchantment will be granted for older content and for what content? Only the specific dailies which granted the slivers so far? Will costs for the older fluff barter items (cosmetics, pets, housing items) be adjusted?


Opening the occassional lootbox and getting fluff items, especially for housing, was the only way with the current ash prices to get some of the more expensive items since I keep the ash for bartering gear, too.

I certainly won't buy keys, neither for new or old boxes.

What will happen to slivers still in the wallet after the update if one happens to end up up 2/3 slivers before it?

[MAWorking]

As usual, it is usually a certain group that responds to forum post. (nothing wrong with that and do not read that as a negative)

I just want to add my .02, or basically... food for thought.

I do not mind great loot from loot boxes.
It does have a place in the game in that not everyone has all the time in the world to grind out dailies, or to grind out a raid (can take all day if not multiple days).
I am not much for comparing whos is bigger, so I honestly do not get why people care if the guy standing next to them by the Vault Vendor has better gear then they do... or how they got it.

*shrug*
Isn't there a happy middle ground where people who can pay for lootboxes/keys enjoy the game with their limited time, with those who have all the time in the world to grind out their gear?

Now with this said, I read this news as bad news for people who are willing to buy keys. Does not sound like the gear will be "worth" the cost.

[Derquin]

Will keys randomly drop in landscape like the older keys do? I like the older system of keys and lootboxes, so I am hoping so. Will there still be lootboxes with keys available from meta deeds in new areas?

I'd like to know that, too.

[Capt.Hunor]

Need to Buy as "Gift" items from the shop and send to other account.
I have three VIP Accounts, one o them is with low level characters and I wish to buy and send items to my other accounts where is the main character.

[Hurin]

This is what i want to ask too.
How much ilvl difference between lootbox and instance gear affects character stats? From what I saw, the difference between lootbox gear and t2 gear for example is not that noticeable.
So i can use ilvl 370 gear and still have ~the same stats as players who run t2 or t3.

Yep. Sadly, you can't escape the Store's influence entirely. This is the inevitable result of crossing that bright line originally set out about selling gear in the Store. From "we'll never sell gear". . . to "we're only selling gear for lower levels". . . to "sure it's endgame gear but we're not selling it directly, you're buying keys to earn a chance at getting it". . . to "sure it's the best endgame gear, but it's not the whole set". . .

So here we are at: "Okay, so we sell endgame gear, but we promise it will never be quite as good as what you earn by playing."

First and foremost. . . though nobody seems to really care about such things anymore. . . let's all just take a moment to realize that years ago, the idea of selling raid-quality gear (or pulls of a slot machine to win raid-quality gear) would have been anathema. There was indeed a slope, it was quite slippery, and it brought us here. . . to the selling of endgame gear.

Having said that, and trying to make lemonade out of all the lemons that the current state of the MMO industry offers us, I hope that SSG calculates the delta between lootbox and non-lootbox versions very carefully (and errors on the side of making that delta significant). I imagine it might be tempting to look at the ridiculous lengths we min/maxers will go to in order to get that truly inconsequential bump in stats and draw the wrong conclusions. There is a fundamental difference between comparing two pieces of in-game loot and resolving to spend untold effort in getting the (minutely) better of the two. . . and comparing a cash shop option vs a raiding/gameplay option. The former is an exercise in determining what's best for your character and making up your mind to do it. . . the latter is, essentially, determining if the game itself feels worthwhile to you.

--H

[yafga]

So after around 2 weeks you can get the T2/T3 instance gear by buying keys? LoL, why not atleast make it tradeable when the new raid gets released or something.. not just 2 weeks after the update is released ? I assume it takes 8weeks + before we get the raid?

I want it to work like this:
When T1/T2 instances are out > Make questing gear available to trade for embers.
When the T3 version of the instance is released > Make T1/T2 gear available to trade for embers
When raid hits > Make T3 instance gear available to trade for embers

This would work if there is at least +4 weeks between releases and you will never be able to trade BIS gear.

You will destroy the progression if you release the instance gear just 2 weeks after release to vendor.


But the best thing would be to just remove gear from lootboxes to be honest, add cosmetics, make it possible that it drops virtues or exp boosts or something like that. To make people buy keys. Not by adding gear with stats.

[Hurin]

I am not much for comparing whos is bigger, so I honestly do not get why people care if the guy standing next to them by the Vault Vendor has better gear then they do... or how they got it.

Those who don't want endgame quality loot for sale don't care what others are wearing either nor how they got it. Yet people insist on believing it's about that. It's not. It never has been.

I think this is the last time, among perhaps a hundred over the years, that I have tried to explain this to someone else who was assuming/asserting the basest/worst motivations on the part of those who merely think rewards in a game should be earned through playing the game (which, it should probably be pointed out, SSG states is a worthwhile principle at the top of this very thread).

--H

[AprilDawn]

I love the fact that these changes seem to keep most players in mind and allow us to play the game the way we want to without hurting those who spend time doing the fellowship content and raids. However, I do have something that concerns me a bit.

Lootboxes seem to drop like candy out of a vending machine. I personally have more lootboxes than I could ever need just from the Mordor expansion. but with keys being locked (currently behind dailies and after U23 goes live through in game store purchases only) that limits people's ability to obtain them severely.

Remember we are a global game. Not everyone that plays LOTRO is VIP and gets 500 LP a month. Some of the players are on a fixed income, some from foreign countries that the exchange rate is such they can not afford to spend real money on the game.. I don't feel that lootboxes should be relegated to only those who have the means to spend money for the game. Free to play players have so much to buy to be competitive in the end game. 3 class traits, 3 virtue slots, all your special bonuses down the far left side of your trait trees. crafting guild progression, all expansions and quest packs, etc. The free to play player, has to put in more effort to get the same results a VIP gets. I am not complaining about this. I think it is a good thing for that to be this way. But to remove the access of lootboxes from those who are not able to spend real money for any reason, doesn't feel right to me. LP are earnable in game yes, but at 195LP for a key when the LP earnable at end game is thus limited by the amount of deeds left undone when you reach that point. If you are free to play for any reason, the amount of LP left in the game when you finally make it to end game is so limited, that the cost of the Black steel key will likely be something you can not get in enough quantity to make it worth the effort.


Overall, I like the idea behind Lootboxes and the way you are changing the loot rules regarding them. I would just ask that you remove the Pay to win element for them by allowing them to drop from baddies on occasion in the end content regions. This, I think will make more people happy and allow for those who are not able to go VIP to also make use of them.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Heh. It's unlikely we'll achieve a 'universal' currency at any particular point, and to be honest that isn't really our goal.

Alas, keeping MMO currencies from inflating and devaluing over time is a surprisingly difficult feat given that we don't have the checks and balances of supply and demand or any kind of currency value anchors that you might see in the real world - heck, keeping real-world currencies balanced is a bit of a trick, as anyone who likes to keep track of such things is likely aware.

Honestly the only MMO I know of that even tries to maintain something approaching a single stable currency is EVE, and they claim to have to keep economists on staff to achieve it, which is cool, but it's not the focus of a game like LOTRO.

So as much as we'd like some currency or other to be a stable and enduring thing forever, that's not generally how it works. But it would certainly be nice if this one lasted a good while? We shall see how it goes.

-Vastin

A simple thing you could implement is a system to take currency out of circulation by offering unique consumables offered nowhere else for the currency.

LOTRO used to have this back in Mines of Moria and before. To this day, people run old Moria/Lorien instances to get the Golden Leaves and Silver Branches for the Lorien reputation consumables.

While you're at it, do that with gold too, seeing as gold inflation is out of control.

[Spunkyremus]

...
First and foremost. . . though nobody seems to really care about such things anymore. . . let's all just take a moment to realize that years ago, the idea of selling raid-quality gear (or pulls of a slot machine to win raid-quality gear) would have been anathema.
--H

Truth! I have never been much of a raider in any MMO I have or am currently playing. I would never expect raid-quality gear from any source other than from a raid.

~Peace

\m/

[Cordovan]

Will keys randomly drop in landscape like the older keys do? I like the older system of keys and lootboxes, so I am hoping so. Will there still be lootboxes with keys available from meta deeds in new areas?

No, keys will no longer appear in in-game content, whether it be a landscape, instance reward, whatever. Instead, you'll earn Motes or Embers of Enchantment directly, and use that to get the things you are interested in from a vendor.

[Hurin]

Truth! I have never been much of a raider in any MMO I have or am currently playing. I would never expect raid-quality gear from any source other than from a raid.

Thanks. Truth be told, I haven't raided for years. Doubt I ever will again. So I just resign myself to never having the best gear. It would never occur to me to demand that it be made available to me for cash. Or in exchange for whatever in-game activity I currently find most entertaining.

--H

[mkcraft27]

There are many people who have farmed many keys over time. These players would have a big advantage in the next update.

The lootboxes wont contain any gear and you wont be able to barter for any gear with embers until a few weeks after the update goes live. Once those few weeks are up, you will be able to use the embers you got from the lootboxes to barter for the same gear that people have been getting since launch. Im not sure I would call that a 'big advantage'.

This worries me a lot, because the player that does the raid once will not have the need to do it again. This ends up reducing the number of players who want to do the raid, which greatly harms the servers where the population is small or has few tanks, supports and healers.

That system is the exact same system used in the current raid, and the scenario you are describing hasent happened. Many kins ran (and some continue to run) multiple T2/T2C run each week. The bottom line is, as long as the raid is fun/entertaining people will continue to run it even after they have gotten the gear out of it.

[Skyfoot]

1. There should be no gear in lootboxes that you don’t have a chance to acquire by playing the game.

2. As such, the vendors for gear and lootboxes will not appear until a few weeks after that content is released. The exact timing might also depend on how involved the content is.

3. Gear that comes from a new Raid at the highest difficulty, or the equivalent raid completion gated vendor, will always have more power than comparable gear that comes directly from lootboxes.[/B]

4. If gear comes from a raid, you need to complete the raid at least once before you can obtain the gear from a vendor using game currency.[/B] This remains unchanged.

5. If we stray from this, let us hear it.

6. One big difference in U23 and beyond is we will reward Embers of Enchantment to you directly when you do endgame quests, rather than indirectly through lootbox keys.

7. How do lootboxes fit into all of this? Lootboxes will continue to appear in-game, and you can buy keys from the LOTRO Store to open them.

8. They'll have cosmetics, gear – with identical gear available from the Ember vendors, and some Embers.

1. There should be no gear in a loot-box, period.

2. You're making this way harder than it should be, just remove the loot-boxes.

3. There should never be comparable gear in loot-boxes. Period.

4. But, what if you complete it before the pre-established time-frame you set in #2?

5. Sigh...

6. The only bright spot in your entire post

7. And then you ruined it, with this sentence.

8. This contradicts what you literally just said, a few lines up: "...we will reward Embers of Enchantment to you directly when you do endgame quests, rather than indirectly through lootbox keys"

[Hurin]

One big difference in U23 and beyond is we will reward Embers of Enchantment to you directly when you do endgame quests, rather than indirectly through lootbox keys.

So, to confirm, there's no equivalent to Ash in the new lootboxes? If so, bravo. Because just buying keys in order to essentially buy Ash in order to essentially buy equipment was. . . well, counter to: "We should reward you for playing the game. Progression should come from playing the game, first and foremost."

I imagine there were some "whales" buying equipment outright via Keys-->Ash-->Gear. Kudos for turning away that money for the good of the game's integrity.

--H

[Skyfoot]

So, to confirm, there's no equivalent to Ash in the new lootboxes? If so, bravo.

Save your "bravo"...

Lootboxes will continue to appear in-game, and you can buy keys from the LOTRO Store to open them. They'll have cosmetics, gear – with identical gear available from the Ember vendors, and some Embers.

[scorrp10]

So in summary: lootboxes are to remain best bang for the buck. And if you can pay off some kin to carry you through a raid, you can have all the raid gear you want minutes after leaving the instance.

Also, where today we can get in on this great lootbox shortcut action by taking at least one toon through the grinder, so we can have easier time with alts, they are removing that shortcut. Grinder only for those who do not bring $$$.

I hope they at least remove currency limits. Cause you know, present currency (BBSK) is unlimited.

[Hurin]

Save your "bravo"...

That is indeed a shame.

--H

[Skyfoot]

All Sev's post does is confirm that leveling and end-game loot/gear progression is designed specifically around the loot-boxes.

I'd say "I told you so", but, at this point, is anyone really surprised (or care)?

[hanxcve]

No, keys will no longer appear in in-game content, whether it be a landscape, instance reward, whatever. Instead, you'll earn Motes or Embers of Enchantment directly, and use that to get the things you are interested in from a vendor.

Can you guys make mithril coin store mailing possible for 5+ year accounts? Basically impossible at this point to start a new toon for end game without spending $70. Also can you make Ashes/Motes unbound to get the economy going again, its currently impossible to make gold and also, gold useless when everything in the game is bound.

All of the other changes look good.

[NeebPlayer]

There will be 2 endgame currencies: Embers and Motes.

Current endgame will always reward Embers, while endgame that is not current will reward Motes. In other words, U23 will now be the current endgame and it will reward Embers. When U24 comes around, U23 will no longer be the corrent endgame and it will switch to Motes. U24 will start out with Embers, but when U25 hits, it will switch to Motes and so on. With every major update, your Embers will also be converted to Motes. I hope this helps.

[yafga]

Still P2W XD What has changed ??

How do lootboxes fit into all of this? Lootboxes will continue to appear in-game, and you can buy keys from the LOTRO Store to open them. They'll have cosmetics, gear – with identical gear available from the Ember vendors, AND SOME EMBERS.

[Skyfoot]

Still P2W XD What has changed ??

Smoke and mirrors, my friend.
You want to know what has actually changed--keys can no longer be earned in-game, only store bought. That is what has changed.
Do the math.
Wake up, people.

[PointyEaredBowTwanger]

I feel like this: "1. There should be no gear in lootboxes that you don’t have a chance to acquire by playing the game. If gear is in a lootbox, it should also appear on a game vendor or as a reward for content within a short period of time" is the wrong way round. Surely stuff should be availeble to earn and acquire in-game *before* it shows up in a lootbox?