Seriously, enough already

I don't understand why every month (it seems), we, the community, are asked for feedback on new systems / revamps / etc. we would like to see.

How many times do you have to ask this question(s), or better yet, how many times do you have to reword the same question(s)???

I say enough already. Either respond / create / update / revamp / tell us never to the answers we post repeatedly everytime these questions are asked, and stop beating the horse... IT'S BEEN DEAD for months, if not years!!!

I'm a lifer. I haven't logged in though since shortly after Mirkwood (no need to at that point). I completed most of what it had to offer pretty shortly after release, and choose not to grind to do the gated material. However, I do check the forums often.

I'm amazed at how many times the devs seem to ask the same thing over and over again. If they haven't figured out by now what the community wants with all their questions, polls, surveys, etc... it's time for them to move along to another company / field / unemployment.

Phew... rant off for now. I'm sure others can agree with me here. Have a great day!

You do realize that even if the Devs were to decide today to implement changes that were overwhelmingly asked for by the Players in the Community Feedback, that we the Players would not see those changes occur in the game until next year at the very earliest, right?

Changes for the next Update are already set in stone on Bullroarer. Unless something game-breaking is broke, that build is not going to change.

Likewise, the Update after that is probably already locked and going through QA right now on the Closed Test Server.

Even the next Paid Expansion probably already has it's Dev Hours fully allotted to specific features, and is pretty much in the can as far as the Devs are concerned, as we speak.

So, even if they were to decide to take the Community Feedback as cannon, and promptly initiate changes, we won't see them until next year, at the very earliest (assuming there is wiggle-room time available on the Official Road-Map).

This is perhaps why people seem to think Turbine doesn't listen, or why they think their opinions don't matter. Turbine has been stellar at listening to their Players, it's just that since there is not an immediate effect the Players often assume the opposite. (Yet every Release Notes, people realize Turbine does listen when there are positive changes that reflect the voice of the Players...albeit from a year prior!)

Rome wasn't built in a day, and MMOs aren't either. You have to have patience and trust in Turbine. They have the track-record to show that they have earned at least a modicum of trust that they do listen to their Playerbase.

I think the difficulty is that we respond with wants that are not going to happen. They ask additional questions in the same area in an attempt to find a compromise. Something that a significant portion customer base will accept and meet Turbine's requirements for implementing.

You sound like some of my kids. I am Turbine (the parent). We are going around around in circles trying to find a partial solution. My son is very unhappy at the moment. He is not getting what he is asking for.

TsarithArcher covered the time lag issue. It can easily take one year from the time they post a set of questions before any changes happen.

As a fellow lifer having been playing since release I understand your frustration, but I disagree with your aversion to the "community" threads. I personally appreciate that the community managers give us a place where they ask us specific questions and we can be assured that our answers, however silly or contradictory, will be read & considered by the development team. I don't expect that my every suggestion will be implemented in the game, but I appreciate greatly knowing that my suggestions will get some small piece of the dev teams' attention and may contribute to the overall changes that are made down the road.

It takes time to implement changes. Mirkwood may suck, but keep hope alive that the next update coming will make everything right again. :)

I couldn't agree more. Every time there's a new "Tell the Community Team", it seems like we've already Told the Community Team, dozens of times in fact.

I suppose I could look at that as a positive thing. Turbine's trying to get a fresh look at the opinions of players.

Instead, I tend to look at it like the OP. Turbine, you can ask us every month what we'd like to see (ask us every day even). It's not going to make us feel like you care about our opinions. For me, it tends to come off like the cheating husband who keeps telling his wife, "this was the last time baby; it'll never happen again".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Graythandor

keep hope alive that the next update coming will make everything right again. :)

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Right, like it will ever be "right" to someone who has been playing for 3 years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TsarithArcher

You do realize that even if the Devs were to decide today to implement changes that were overwhelmingly asked for by the Players in the Community Feedback, that we the Players would not see those changes occur in the game until next year at the very earliest, right?

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Totally agreed. I was shocked to learn in a dev interview that the Skirmish system was actually in development since before Moria was even released.


Makes me wonder what kind of things they've got under their sleeves that we won't be able to see for some time now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IowaHawk

Right, like it will ever be "right" to someone who has been playing for 3 years.

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Even the All-Powerful Devs, with all of their vast array of Tools at their disposal, can't make all the people happy all of the time. They can work wonders, but they can't do the impossible.

So, they try to make some of the people happy some of the time...and from the scuttle-butt on the Forums, that seems about right.

There is always something each Player doesn't like and wants fixed/changed/nerfed/buffed *NOW*. However, as they are still playing, then clearly there are some things they do like about LOTRO. So, they are indeed happy some of the time, yet always have something to complain about...ergo, some of the people are happy some of the time.

Sounds to me like the Devs are right on Target for Customer Satisfaction. ;)

There are a number of things that have happened in game as a result of questions asked in the Community Team threads. They are never instant and often the Community Team threads are the starting points, not the end points.

I can point specifically to the removal of a number of legacies from the game and changes to others that came as a direct result of the team asking us to please include a specific question. It wasn't an overnight change, the data collected was compared to other data and was used as a basis for more investigation. In the end, the decisions were made based on the total data gathered, but the end result was a change that started in the Community Team threads.

So as others have said, the change my be slow, but the feedback is never ignored. It all goes into the information pool we use to make decisions.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sapience

There are a number of things that have happened in game as a result of questions asked in the Community Team threads. They are never instant and often the Community Team threads are the starting points, not the end points.

I can point specifically to the removal of a number of legacies from the game and changes to others that came as a direct result of the team asking us to please include a specific question. It wasn't an overnight change, the data collected was compared to other data and was used as a basis for more investigation. In the end, the decisions were made based on the total data gathered, but the end result was a change that started in the Community Team threads.

So as others have said, the change my be slow, but the feedback is never ignored. It all goes into the information pool we use to make decisions.

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Thanks Sapience! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fallohide

I couldn't agree more. Every time there's a new "Tell the Community Team", it seems like we've already Told the Community Team, dozens of times in fact.

I suppose I could look at that as a positive thing. Turbine's trying to get a fresh look at the opinions of players.

Instead, I tend to look at it like the OP. Turbine, you can ask us every month what we'd like to see (ask us every day even). It's not going to make us feel like you care about our opinions. For me, it tends to come off like the cheating husband who keeps telling his wife, "this was the last time baby; it'll never happen again".

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You are so dang skewed! Do you even read and participate in these threads? Just because people give the same answers to questions where they don't pertain* doesn't mean Turbine is just asking the same thing over and over again.

Kahless on a Kracker, Turbine is danged if they do, danged if they don't with most of you!

*here's a perfect example, emphasis mine in Sapience's quote

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Question 1
Excluding, PvMP, Legendary Items and Radiance gear, what systems do you feel could be expanded or revised? Please list two and give a brief description of how you would revise/expand them.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Graythandor

DO NOT update, expand, or revise ANYTHING in the game until you fix Legendary Items. LIs should be PRIORITY #1.

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More useful feedback from a 3 year player!

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Originally Posted by Sapience

There are a number of things that have happened in game as a result of questions asked in the Community Team threads. They are never instant and often the Community Team threads are the starting points, not the end points.

I can point specifically to the removal of a number of legacies from the game and changes to others that came as a direct result of the team asking us to please include a specific question. It wasn't an overnight change, the data collected was compared to other data and was used as a basis for more investigation. In the end, the decisions were made based on the total data gathered, but the end result was a change that started in the Community Team threads.

So as others have said, the change my be slow, but the feedback is never ignored. It all goes into the information pool we use to make decisions.

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Citation needed.







(I kid, I kid!)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IowaHawk

You are so dang skewed! Do you even read and participate in these threads? Just because people give the same answers to questions where they don't pertain* doesn't mean Turbine is just asking the same thing over and over again.

Kahless on a Kracker, Turbine is danged if they do, danged if they don't with most of you!

*here's a perfect example, emphasis mine in Sapience's quote





More useful feedback from a 3 year player!

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lol Way to take my answer out of context. ;) Please note that the above quote was simply a "disclaimer" I felt compelled to add before I went on to answer the question exactly as posed. I'm entitled to point out a caveat to my answer before I give it.

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png

http://xkcd.com/285/

No, I don't really have anything useful to add - it's friday afternoon and my brain is complete mush

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Originally Posted by Drogo1

it's friday afternoon and my brain is complete mush

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LOL, I need to find out how you get that to ONLY happen on Fridays...I am sure the forum would thank you. ;)

(I originally misspelled that as Firday...I should have left it...)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sapience

There are a number of things that have happened in game as a result of questions asked in the Community Team threads. They are never instant and often the Community Team threads are the starting points, not the end points.

I can point specifically to the removal of a number of legacies from the game and changes to others that came as a direct result of the team asking us to please include a specific question. It wasn't an overnight change, the data collected was compared to other data and was used as a basis for more investigation. In the end, the decisions were made based on the total data gathered, but the end result was a change that started in the Community Team threads.

So as others have said, the change my be slow, but the feedback is never ignored. It all goes into the information pool we use to make decisions.

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"Thank you for adding reputation to this user"

Players leave feedback all over the place and although I believe the devs when they say they try to read it, some is bound to get lost. Official discussion threads are the places you have the best chance of your feedback being heard (IMHO).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IowaHawk

LOL, I need to find out how you get that to ONLY happen on Fridays...I am sure the forum would thank you. ;)

(I originally misspelled that as Firday...I should have left it...)

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*shhhh!*

I'll let you in on a little secret - I just fake it during the rest of the week. It's just that during Friday afternoons I don't feel so compelled to hide my mentally squishy state :D

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Originally Posted by Drogo1

*shhhh!*

I'll let you in on a little secret - I just fake it during the rest of the week. It's just that during Friday afternoons I don't feel so compelled to hide my mentally squishy state :D

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Hide it? Nah, I just try to suppress it by using a third-person Klingon persona on boards without profanity filters/guidelines/Sapience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sapience

There are a number of things that have happened in game as a result of questions asked in the Community Team threads. They are never instant and often the Community Team threads are the starting points, not the end points.

I can point specifically to the removal of a number of legacies from the game and changes to others that came as a direct result of the team asking us to please include a specific question. It wasn't an overnight change, the data collected was compared to other data and was used as a basis for more investigation. In the end, the decisions were made based on the total data gathered, but the end result was a change that started in the Community Team threads.

So as others have said, the change my be slow, but the feedback is never ignored. It all goes into the information pool we use to make decisions.

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Thanks Sapience. It does make sense - I understand that the big changes especially take some time to implement. Programmers don't wish code into existence. I get that.

At the same time, it's incredibly frustrating to see what seems like a "look at the monkey" approach. There are some new things in the game that are interesting. There are also things in the game that feel like they were thrown in half finished and abandoned (hobbies for example). It feels like rather than fix the things that so many people have made so many posts about, Turbine just trods along with its head down until it can push out the next new (and somewhat incomplete) feature that will distract everyone - at least for a short while - from the hundred other things they really want fixed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fallohide

Thanks Sapience. It does make sense - I understand that the big changes especially take some time to implement. Programmers don't wish code into existence. I get that.

At the same time, it's incredibly frustrating to see what seems like a "look at the monkey" approach. There are some new things in the game that are interesting. There are also things in the game that feel like they were thrown in half finished and abandoned (hobbies for example). It feels like rather than fix the things that so many people have made so many posts about, Turbine just trods along with its head down until it can push out the next new (and somewhat incomplete) feature that will distract everyone - at least for a short while - from the hundred other things they really want fixed.

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Interesting - to me hobbies is an example of a course change based on feedback.

They set up a new system (Hobbies) with a small initial item sent up the flagpole to see how many people salute.

Apparently fishing did not make enough of an impact to justify moving whatever was the next hobby high enough up the priority queue for more work.

So they started a new system, released it and gathered feedback and the feedback was such that the system moved down the priority stack far enough that it hasn't been revisted for much beyond minor tweaks since. But when they released it, it seemed they were excited and had big plans.

If nothing else, the "Tell the Community" threads provide a means for a semi-lucid, semi-civil, semi-coherent statement of player frustrations and angst without the usual irrational, animosity-filled, and incoherent us Vs. them (whomever the "us" and "them" are in any discussion) postings that fill any usual thread.

Turbine is not going to waste time to make a thread asking for feedback with no intention of analyzing the responses. I mean, seriously.

I can think of a lot more things to get frustrated over than a "tell the community" thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fallohide

Dang shucks, this is so cute. You keep trying lil' fella and one day you'll make a post that is actually logically consistent instead of ad hominem filled fanboi goo.

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Should be amusing when he too gets fed up with the tripe Turbine insists on releasing and he turns away from the fanboy path.

He's just the current loud mouth fanboy, there have been others who were almost as loud. Eventually they too soured on the game, and largely left. I suspect with one turns he won't go quietly into the night.

That aside I did come here to comment on this:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sapience

I can point specifically to the removal of a number of legacies from the game and changes to others that came as a direct result of the team asking us to please include a specific question. It wasn't an overnight change, the data collected was compared to other data and was used as a basis for more investigation.

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Yes, the new legacies were much improved. It's just a shame that you only seem to listen to the things that are easy to fix, not the things you *need* to fix.

I'm sorry, but the more time that passes without you guys coming out and saying how you are going to actually *fix* things Legendary items, or Radiance, the less likely people are to believe you actually want us to tell you how to fix what is wrong.

You can't lie about what is going to be in an expansion, base pre-sales on that lie, then expect people who purchased based on a lie to be happy can you? Sure, for a while we could say "oh they just didn't get to the class quests, don't worry, they are coming". If we can't believe your press releases, why should we ever believe you are actually taking feedback into consideration?

But seriously, its been, what, 4 months now? No word on those class quests, new skills, virtues yet.

4 months past due.

Stop patronizing your customers with these "tell the community threads". Your lack of communication and action on the topics is just making you look to be more and more disingenuous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drogo1

Interesting - to me hobbies is an example of a course change based on feedback.

They set up a new system (Hobbies) with a small initial item sent up the flagpole to see how many people salute.

Apparently fishing did not make enough of an impact to justify moving whatever was the next hobby high enough up the priority queue for more work.

So they started a new system, released it and gathered feedback and the feedback was such that the system moved down the priority stack far enough that it hasn't been revisted for much beyond minor tweaks since. But when they released it, it seemed they were excited and had big plans.

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Maybe so - but I think fishing had a lot of interested players when it first went live. In fact, if I remember right, it was one of those things that people had asked about for some time that actually was implemented. I think the reason it flopped though had more to do with its lack of functionality than with a lack of player interest. Anglers pressed a single button over and over again only to fill up their severely limited inventory spaces with dozens of garbage items (including the fish) that had no use and vendored for 1cp each.

I'd just love to see Turbine fix some of the things that players are constantly asking (even complaining) about rather than see another new, possibly half-finished, feature that will, after a month or two (or even a day or two for the more hardcore players) simply get added to the list of things players are complaining about.

Yes, there are always going to be someone who complains no matter how things get fixed. But there is a palpable difference in the way it affects game/forum atmosphere when the complaints are aimed at "you nerfed uberattack!" compared to when the complaints are "awesome new horse... which is screwed up to the point that I can't get one... again". One is a disagreement with how powerful a feature is; the other is Turbine can't seem to get its act together.

Those two things have very different effects on player morale.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FutenCake

But seriously, its been, what, 4 months now? No word on those class quests, new skills, virtues yet.

4 months past due.

Stop patronizing your customers with these "tell the community threads". Your lack of communication and action on the topics is just making you look to be more and more disingenuous.

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I will assume you are referring to this press release?

http://www.lotro.com/news/pressrelea...ge-of-mirkwood

Quote:

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NEW FEATURES:

* The Epic Conclusion to Volume II: Mines of Moria™ – Under the command of Celeborn and Galadriel, players will fight through vast armies of Orcs alongside the Elves of Lórien in a battle that will take them to Dol Guldur, the fortress of the Ringwraiths. This update includes Book 9 and the Epilogue to the sweeping epic tale begun with the award-winning Mines of Moria expansion.
* Increased Level Cap — Players will be able advance their characters up to level 65, gaining access to new traits, virtues, skills and class quests.
* Answer the Call of War! – Jump into the heat of battle with the new Skirmishes feature. Skirmishes offer endless action in repeatable, randomized instances where players can create and lead customizable soldiers into battle, training them to greater skill as they earn victories against the forces of shadow. Answer the call of war wherever violence erupts with the new “World Join” function that lets players and their fellowships band together to fight in various locations throughout Middle-earth.
* Take up Arms! – Infiltrate the dark jails, deadly arenas and savage stables of Dol Guldur, the fortress of the Ringwraiths, and strike a blow against Sauron’s forces in new 3 and 6-player instances. Call upon your fellows to adventure into the most deadly 12-player raid yet and face the ultimate challenge – the Nazgûl Lord!
* Major Gameplay Enhancements – Turbine continues to improve the award-winning experience of LOTRO with major improvements to the combat and Legendary Items systems. Players will experience improved responsiveness when in the heat of battle. Players will also be able to create and craft their own customized Second and Third Age Legendary Items from raw materials and grow their weapons’ power to level 60. Achieve new Legacies, new titles, and a fourth Runic slot that will make Legendary Items even more unique and powerful.

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Even though you may have a point about Class Quests***, you are dead wrong about skills and virtues. Look:

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Relea...neral_Gameplay

http://www.lotro.com/gameinfo/devdia...skill-upgrades

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Relea...s.2FReputation

So, in short, if we take class quests out, I got this:

Quote:

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NEW FEATURES:

* The Epic Conclusion to Volume II: Mines of Moria™ – Under the command of Celeborn and Galadriel, players will fight through vast armies of Orcs alongside the Elves of Lórien in a battle that will take them to Dol Guldur, the fortress of the Ringwraiths. This update includes Book 9 and the Epilogue to the sweeping epic tale begun with the award-winning Mines of Moria expansion.
* Increased Level Cap — Players will be able advance their characters up to level 65, gaining access to new traits, virtues, and skills.
* Answer the Call of War! – Jump into the heat of battle with the new Skirmishes feature. Skirmishes offer endless action in repeatable, randomized instances where players can create and lead customizable soldiers into battle, training them to greater skill as they earn victories against the forces of shadow. Answer the call of war wherever violence erupts with the new “World Join” function that lets players and their fellowships band together to fight in various locations throughout Middle-earth.
* Take up Arms! – Infiltrate the dark jails, deadly arenas and savage stables of Dol Guldur, the fortress of the Ringwraiths, and strike a blow against Sauron’s forces in new 3 and 6-player instances. Call upon your fellows to adventure into the most deadly 12-player raid yet and face the ultimate challenge – the Nazgûl Lord!
* Major Gameplay Enhancements – Turbine continues to improve the award-winning experience of LOTRO with major improvements to the combat and Legendary Items systems. Players will experience improved responsiveness when in the heat of battle. Players will also be able to create and craft their own customized Second and Third Age Legendary Items from raw materials and grow their weapons’ power to level 60. Achieve new Legacies, new titles, and a fourth Runic slot that will make Legendary Items even more unique and powerful.

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Instead of this:

Quote:

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NEW FEATURES:

* The Epic Conclusion to Volume II: Mines of Moria™ – Under the command of Celeborn and Galadriel, players will fight through vast armies of Orcs alongside the Elves of Lórien in a battle that will take them to Dol Guldur, the fortress of the Ringwraiths. This update includes Book 9 and the Epilogue to the sweeping epic tale begun with the award-winning Mines of Moria expansion.
* Increased Level Cap — Players will be able advance their characters up to level 65, gaining access to new traits, virtues, skills and class quests.
* Answer the Call of War! – Jump into the heat of battle with the new Skirmishes feature. Skirmishes offer endless action in repeatable, randomized instances where players can create and lead customizable soldiers into battle, training them to greater skill as they earn victories against the forces of shadow. Answer the call of war wherever violence erupts with the new “World Join” function that lets players and their fellowships band together to fight in various locations throughout Middle-earth.
* Take up Arms! – Infiltrate the dark jails, deadly arenas and savage stables of Dol Guldur, the fortress of the Ringwraiths, and strike a blow against Sauron’s forces in new 3 and 6-player instances. Call upon your fellows to adventure into the most deadly 12-player raid yet and face the ultimate challenge – the Nazgûl Lord!
* Major Gameplay Enhancements – Turbine continues to improve the award-winning experience of LOTRO with major improvements to the combat and Legendary Items systems. Players will experience improved responsiveness when in the heat of battle. Players will also be able to create and craft their own customized Second and Third Age Legendary Items from raw materials and grow their weapons’ power to level 60. Achieve new Legacies, new titles, and a fourth Runic slot that will make Legendary Items even more unique and powerful.

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For my $20? Gee, kinda puts it into perspective, huh?

***EDIT: BOOSH! Even class quests technically got an update, look:

http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Relea...icial#Questing

Intro Class Quests – In certain cases, a few skill based objectives in the NPE would not activate when the player landed a critical or devastating attack. This has been fixed. All skill executions are now counted correctly.

QED.