Black Arrow Revamp

Currently the problem I see with having BA damage rely on a dot (flaming arrow) is that in situations where the freeps lack healing or a loremaster they can find themselves stacked with an overwhelming amount of dots and forced to run and or burn to death. On the other hand in raid vs. raid situations where freeps have multiple lms captains and healers dots are not nearly as useful as freeps superior burst dps. This is why I suggest that flame dot be severely nerfed and black arrow based damage and crit/dev multipliers boosted. My rank 10 black arrows without any buffs or in hardhitter has a base tick of 190 for flaming arrow(completely dmg traited) I would like that be moved down to about 100. In exchange I want screaming shafts which reads 225x3 shadow dmg(hits much less seeing as shadow mitigation is not hard to get on a freep) needs to be changed to about 300 and its miss chance needs to be decreased. Headshot currently has a 30second cooldown and base is 531 Common damage. On non heavies this hits in the low 400s( can dev for a little over 1k). I suggest that its cooldown gets increased to 1minute is base damage increased to about 750( will now dev like a hunters merci shot) and its induction removed. Next skill to be changed is Puncture target which base is 429 common dmg on a 10second cooldown and costs 233power! for one since this skill is mostly used on heavy Armour targets which have high common mitigation it needs to be changed to a different dmg type boost of base damage to 500 and a decrease in its power cost. Fire trap got nerfed in moria from 330 a tick to 183 it would be nice if it got a boost to 200 or so seeing as it can be easily avoided. And final vital target I like this skill the way it is now although it NEEDS to be a different damage type. So again in exchange for theses boosts fire dot will be extremely nerfed and i could under stand taking the additional +25%ranged evade off of moving target.

If you want to turn your Blackarrow into a Hunter, then his survivability needs to go way down.

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Originally Posted by Anetheroc

If you want to turn your Blackarrow into a Hunter, then his survivability needs to go way down.

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yo ane, so when ya coming back to bw? :D

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Originally Posted by Anetheroc

If you want to turn your Blackarrow into a Hunter, then his survivability needs to go way down.

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this would be true if what i suggested turned a ba into a hunter

still nothing like a hunter...no aoe root, mez, fears, still wouldnt be as high dps with those changes as a hunter,no resolute aim, or that haste skill, come on ane i know your smarter than that:p

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Originally Posted by deathman22

this would be true if what i suggested turned a ba into a hunter

still nothing like a hunter...no aoe root, mez, fears, still wouldnt be as high dps with those changes as a hunter,no resolute aim, or that haste skill, come on ane i know your smarter than that:p

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Did you know your Blackarrow has higher mitigation towards non-common mitigations(the damage types used in the Ettenmoors) than my Captain does, even when my captain has Fidelity slotted and is wearing 3/6 Vile Maw and 3/3 +25 rad?(covering Acid, Fire, and Shadow) And that's base.

Giving better ranged DPS to a Heavy Armour Ranged class, without lowering their survivability, on the side that already outnumbers the other side 99% of the time on most servers, would be a mistake.

Come on, Hellz. I know you're smarter than that. :p

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Originally Posted by Anetheroc

Did you know your Blackarrow has higher mitigation towards non-common mitigations(the damage types used in the Ettenmoors) than my Captain does, even when my captain has Fidelity slotted and is wearing 3/6 Vile Maw and 3/3 +25 rad?(covering Acid, Fire, and Shadow) And that's base.

Giving better ranged DPS to a Heavy Armour Ranged class, without lowering their survivability, on the side that already outnumbers the other side 99% of the time on most servers, would be a mistake.

Come on, Hellz. I know you're smarter than that. :p

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I fail to see your point... Hunters DPS is much higher than a BAs after mitigations have been accounted for without those mitigations it would be like prebook 7 in moria.. Not to mention freeps dont deal acid or shadow dmg.. but yes we have mitigations towards westernesse/beleriand but honestly only the freep melee classes does it seem that they dont hit hard enough but you cant just decrease mitigations because then freep ranged would be able to mow us down maybe increase incoming melee dmg.

PS if it wasnt clear from above BA would still not have the dps of a hunter..with those changes.. currently just dps alone(not over time) hunters have WAY more.

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Originally Posted by deathman22

I fail to see your point... Hunters DPS is much higher than a BAs after mitigations have been accounted for without those mitigations it would be like prebook 7 in moria.. Not to mention freeps dont deal acid or shadow dmg.. but yes we have mitigations towards westernesse/beleriand but honestly only the freep melee classes does it seem that they dont hit hard enough but you cant just decrease mitigations because then freep ranged would be able to mow us down maybe increase incoming melee dmg.

PS if it wasnt clear from above BA would still not have the dps of a hunter..with those changes.. currently just dps alone(not over time) hunters have WAY more.

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And a few nerfs to Blackarrow survivability would still not make it as vulnerable as a Hunter.

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Originally Posted by Anetheroc

And a few nerfs to Blackarrow survivability would still not make it as vulnerable as a Hunter.

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Unless your arguing that even right now black arrows defenses are OP then that is what I was going for : less survivability and more damage but still more survivability then a poorly played hunter( most hunters dont cc enough if they did they would have greater survivability) and less dps then one.

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Originally Posted by deathman22

that is what I was going for : less survivability and more damage but still more survivability then a poorly played hunter and less dps then one.

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Well if that was what you were going for, then I agree with you.

I suppose I missed the part of your original post where you talked about what should be done to Blackarrow survivability. Yep: last sentence. Hehe...

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Originally Posted by Anetheroc

Well if that was what you were going for, then I agree with you.

I suppose I missed the part of your original post where you talked about what should be done to Blackarrow survivability.

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Well took the +25% evade off and its not like it would be a huge damage increase I mean flaming arrow already allows ba to deal alot of damage so would not need much of a survivability nerf since BA would not get huge dmg increase just more dps opposed to dot. As i later said maybe something could be done to increase freep melee damage on BAs.

wts HS, wtb VT, PST

honestly comparing the two classes ends up being an exercise in futility. When my hunter gets the mits + b/p/e + morale pool of a BA, I'll gladly call for a boost to BA's base damage. That's not even taking into account MT or Uruk heal. Like I said, comparing them is not worth anyone's time.

i think the BA has good damge but he dont ahve any thing against the mele classes like the hunter, i like to play my BA but when i remmember that lvl 60 champ or burg or any mele class can kill him then i chose to play my reaver, so i think we need a skill that make a slow like the upper cut skill in the hunter or any thing that make it a litle better for a BA to go around in the moors and solo or try to solo.

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Originally Posted by Odin_of_Freyr

wts HS, wtb VT, PST

honestly comparing the two classes ends up being an exercise in futility. When my hunter gets the mits + b/p/e + morale pool of a BA, I'll gladly call for a boost to BA's base damage. That's not even taking into account MT or Uruk heal. Like I said, comparing them is not worth anyone's time.

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lmao..do you have a comprehension problem? This has NOTHING to do with hunters....nothing.. All I am suggesting is to nerf fire dot in exchane raise burst dps... I love how the one thing you pull out of this thread named BA revamp is what you want in order to eazy mode... Not going to bring up any of the poor rhetoric you used nor defend myself to someone I do not respect.

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Originally Posted by morry2001

i think the BA has good damge but he dont ahve any thing against the mele classes like the hunter, i like to play my BA but when i remmember that lvl 60 champ or burg or any mele class can kill him then i chose to play my reaver, so i think we need a skill that make a slow like the upper cut skill in the hunter or any thing that make it a litle better for a BA to go around in the moors and solo or try to solo.

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Again BA has fine damage due to being able to stack dots but thats damage over time not burst damage. Not suggesting huge increase in damage... When you bring up melee classes if your reffering to a 1v1 type situation that is completely irrelevant this isnt arena pvp.

I just saw a wall of text and didn't bother reading...

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Originally Posted by deathman22

this would be true if what i suggested turned a ba into a hunter

still nothing like a hunter...no aoe root, mez, fears, still wouldnt be as high dps with those changes as a hunter,no resolute aim, or that haste skill, come on ane i know your smarter than that:p

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What are you talking about? Turbine gave BAs lots of CC skillz!!!!! BA's have a trap, root/slow, melee stun, a knockdown skill, AND an AoE root!!!!! They are great enough to make BAs a CCing machine!!!!

I figure most BAs know about Set Trap and Hindering Shot (enhanced version), so I'll skip that. Btw 4s Root... lol at DR.

The melee stun (Enhanced Skill: Gash) only works when Gash crits and stuns for 3 seconds!!!! Über!!!! My crit rating is 2091 (7.5%). I wonder how many BAs slot Brutal Persuasion for the extra +520 melee crit rating. Most BAs would use the racial and class slots for something more useful than something that relies on a crit to stun a freep for 3 seconds.

The knockdown skill (Enhanced Skill: Headshot) sounds great on paper. I can't say much about it as I don't have the skill, but I can only hope the "chance" to knockdown a target is somewhere between Exposed Throat and Crippling Bite/Pounce chances. But then again... LOL AT RANK 14.

The AoE root (Enhanced Skill: Death Blossom)... what can I say about this skill... seems like the BA version of Rain of Thorns. I'd like to thank the person that allowed BAs to have this skill. Why? BECAUSE IT'S AVAILABLE AT RANK 15!!!!!!! REJOICE YOU BA FOOLS!!!! REJOICE!!!!!! Just think, in about 2 - 3 years, we could actually see a BA do an AoE root!

Unless anyone (especially Turbine) can convince me otherwise, BA CC is a joke. I guess I can take the WL's complaint that at least BAs have CC.

I actually think that BAs are really okay as they are right now. The fire dot should be amazingly powerful when versus a small group of freeps without healers. Freeps SHOULD die. On the other hand, in a raid, versus a raid, you'll have support, too, and while your fire dot on that poor Minstrel will likely be cured (you wouldn't fire dot me, would you, Hellz? ;_;), that Hunter in the group by themselves that just got pounced and VT'd... he's going to die.

As it stands, creeps are more powerful in most small group versus small group situations, but the balance shifts as more players enter the field. Freeps, if they can get a nice class synergy in a raid (and this can be difficult, as there is usually something missing, be it heals or melee, or cures), will always overpower creeps in an "equal numbers" raid versus raid situation.

That's the best balance we're going to get, I think. So, in my opinion, I don't think BAs need a nerf to their fire dot or an increase to their direct damage.

When my hunter has an extra 30% morale, a full racial aoe heal, a super evade save your a$$ skill, a heartseeker that doesnt say "Hey IM ABOUT TO SHOOT YOU", and double the mitigations including bpe he has now, than I'm all for raising ba damage.

Until then, I understand you died in a pvp zone, but ltp!

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Originally Posted by Anonymous32

When my hunter has an extra 30% morale, a full racial aoe heal, a super evade save your a$$ skill, a heartseeker that doesnt say "Hey IM ABOUT TO SHOOT YOU", and double the mitigations including bpe he has now, than I'm all for raising ba damage.

Until then, I understand you died in a pvp zone, but ltp!

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I am under the assumption you did not read my whole post :). If you did you would realize that BAs would not be getting much of an increase in damage, just changed from dot to burst dps. Regarding me dying in a pvp zone? I wouldn't be suggesting to slightly lower BA survivability if i cared about dying. But then again looks like your just another hunter that quit because he cant DF anymore so your not even worth responding to :p. And i have know idea what your hunter is equipped with but most hunters on windfola have at least 6k morale while I have 6.1k. And super evade skill? with today's tactical zerg I hope your are joking (Again I thin you missed in my post wheere the additional 25%range evade would be removed from moving target). And if BA has double your bpe then you need better gear.(with the exception of block obviously). But this isn't about comparing hunter with BA anyway so I am done with that.

BTW If your having a hard time on your hunter try using some CC

I've always thought BA burst damage is just fine these days.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous32

When my hunter has an extra 30% morale, a full racial aoe heal, a super evade save your a$$ skill, a heartseeker that doesnt say "Hey IM ABOUT TO SHOOT YOU", and double the mitigations including bpe he has now, than I'm all for raising ba damage.

Until then, I understand you died in a pvp zone, but ltp!

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Ouchie...relaxxxx

This whole hunter VS BA issue is really daunting...the classes will never be equal, unfortunately. Hunters can get up to around 5.5k-6k with traits and good gear. The full racial AoE heal wouldn't apply to all hunters even if freeps had it...it's a racial...for uruks...lol. Moving Target should be toned down a bit, it makes BAs a beast against ranged freep classes, but luckily there are a ton of tactical classes out these days...

And as most people missed...Muz was asking for a decrease in DoT damage, for an increase in Burst damage. Freeps whine about DoTs all the time...wouldn't this be welcome? I know DoTs are the worst part of the moors for melee at times.

@Beneros...i really don't think your "died in a pvp zone" comment really applies to Muz...he doesn't care about dying. I assure you

Muz is really only trying to make the class more suitable for PvP. I had a 1v1 with him with my freep with other day and even with the fire trap down i never dropped below 6k morale idt...until others came....inductions for a BA are tough as hell against a freep who knows how to play. The one thing i think a BA should get is a slow on one of their melee skills...cut--->low cut+25% slow...pleaseeeee <3

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Originally Posted by Ryuc

The one thing i think a BA should get is a slow on one of their melee skills...cut--->low cut+25% slow...pleaseeeee <3

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Thanks for support ryuc:p seems all others are BA haters :). But anyway as much as this sounds nice I think the low cut would only help in 1v1s or help with survivability. All I am trying to do is prevent fire dot spamming and increase usefulness in raid situations. If the damage increase I suggested to our burst dps overcompensates the nerfing of the dot then it can be toned down a bit but honestly I do not believe it does.

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Originally Posted by Ryuc

Muz is really only trying to make the class more suitable for PvP. I had a 1v1 with him with my freep with other day and even with the fire trap down i never dropped below 6k morale idt...until others came....inductions for a BA are tough as hell against a freep who knows how to play. The one thing i think a BA should get is a slow on one of their melee skills...cut--->low cut+25% slow...pleaseeeee <3

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1v1 situations are different, though. There are classes that are amazing at 1v1s. Guardian is one such amazing class and BA is on the opposite end of the spectrum, i.e., not so great. You'll never get parity comparing 1v1s. While I agree that BAs are a tad disadvantaged with their lack of non-induction skills (barring No You Don't... that's the only one, correct?), I think that overall they are just fine. A melee-based slow wouldn't be too overpowering... but do you really need it?

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Originally Posted by deathman22

Currently the problem I see with having BA damage rely on a dot (flaming arrow) is that in situations where the freeps lack healing or a loremaster they can find themselves stacked with an overwhelming amount of dots and forced to run and or burn to death.

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This isn't a problem, your scenario still describes an advantage to the targets: Time.

Burst DPS is the most efficient and effective means of HP removal in the game, even with healers. You get hit by direct/burst damage and the HP is gone. Healers, if present, only able to compensate after that has landed. DoT damage can be mitigated as it's occurring, DoT ticks matched by HoT ticks or direct heals.

This means anyone afflicted by a DoT, running away trying to get to help, should melt down into the dirt if they don't make it in Time. Hallelujah!

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On the other hand in raid vs. raid situations where freeps have multiple lms captains and healers dots are not nearly as useful as freeps superior burst dps. This is why I suggest that flame dot be severely nerfed and black arrow based damage and crit/dev multipliers boosted. My rank 10 black arrows without any buffs or in hardhitter has a base tick of 190 for flaming arrow(completely dmg traited) I would like that be moved down to about 100. In exchange I want screaming shafts which reads 225x3 shadow dmg(hits much less seeing as shadow mitigation is not hard to get on a freep) needs to be changed to about 300 and its miss chance needs to be decreased. Headshot currently has a 30second cooldown and base is 531 Common damage. On non heavies this hits in the low 400s( can dev for a little over 1k). I suggest that its cooldown gets increased to 1minute is base damage increased to about 750( will now dev like a hunters merci shot) and its induction removed.

Next skill to be changed is Puncture target which base is 429 common dmg on a 10second cooldown and costs 233power! for one since this skill is mostly used on heavy Armour targets which have high common mitigation it needs to be changed to a different dmg type boost of base damage to 500 and a decrease in its power cost.

Fire trap got nerfed in moria from 330 a tick to 183 it would be nice if it got a boost to 200 or so seeing as it can be easily avoided. And final vital target I like this skill the way it is now although it NEEDS to be a different damage type. So again in exchange for theses boosts fire dot will be extremely nerfed and i could under stand taking the additional +25%ranged evade off of moving target.

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The core problem with the BA at the moment is not DPS, it is the entire operational profile that relegates it to a binary role on the field, whether solo or group: Stay at 40M and DoT away, toss some low DPS shots, rinse/repeat. Or run, even if targets just hit 30-40M. That's all folks.

If you get noticed, RUN. And I mean right now. You stick around and it's CC, CC, dead. Starting at 30-40M. The Evade helps . . . sometimes. But most times only as a once in a while buffer to a Freep nuke rush (and still not guaranteed to boot).

Better CC ability doesn't dribble in until like Rank 12 - 15. lmao. BAs need two CC abilities in Ranks 5-8 somewhere, listed at the bottom of this post.

So as a BA all you get to do is either run away or lay on your Fire Dot, toss some fill-in attacks, fire dot again, run some more. And make sure you've got LOTS of Creeps around to protect you so you can do more Fire Dotting and shotting (induction based), and less time simply running around like a chicken-head.

You don't get to CC stuff on the other side (e.g. Stun or Fear a Healer). You don't get to truly CC anything chasing you (e.g. Root of 20sec+ or Fear or Stun). You don't get to AoE root several people being chased or the front lines being charged. You don't get to setup in Camo for safer movement across the Moors or for opener setup. Heck, I don't even get to SPANK anything hard and fast, even if only once in a while. I get to run away a lot, lay on DoTs, hit with Hindering Shot hoping to slow them a little, only to see about 7 to 8 times of 10 my targets get back to healers with DoTs cleansed or compensated for easily.

No relevant CC on a DoT based class. Hindering Shot is the one and only skill that keeps BAs from being CC-zero. Unfortunately it means we are only one notch or so above zero.

Suggestions (available somewhere between Ranks 5 - 8):

1) Add a melee knockdown ability using the Warden's "kick" animation. Knockdown of 3 seconds, and matches the concept of BAs being "hideously strengthed Uruks". Cooldown: undetermined (but a cd necessary)

2) Add Bards Arrow to BAs. This provides BAs with one ranged CC effect of some magnitude and matches the concept of "monsters and mayhem" from Sauron's side.

Given the BA is principally a DoT based class, not Burst, adding these two skills would simply allow more flexibility for the class, and would not be OP. We'd be able to do a little more tactically for our groups.

Achually it is a good idea

BA's dps is the most underpowered of all classes (given his main roll is ranged dps)

Yet put 4 of them together and theirs dot are Nuts

even comparing hunters with BA's - Hunters can play a much better roll and yet out dps them (hence the low moral/avoidances) and its not even with BA's survivability

Can BA's even solo any class of freeps? honestly

Oh but i would like to see a signal for VT just like HS