Interesting Article RE player feedback in MMOs

Caught this at digg:

http://www.gamesradar.com/f/what-all...17113116512049

CCP games (Eve Online) sure do have an interesting approach to developer/player interaction and feedback. They fly an elected council of their player base to Iceland (dodging volcanoes somehow) to iron out problems with their game.

Yeah. So. That's awesome.

As much as I'd like to think that things like ask the ask the community threads and the polls, as well as the time spent on Bullroarer and Isengard help...

There is nothing better than sit down, face-to-face interaction/discussion. Period.

I think Turbine could learn a thing or two from this article. Not saying Turbine needs to fly 10 players elected by the community out to Boston twice a year....

Or. Wait. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying they should do.

Discuss!

Oh, and I apologize if this is in the wrong section of the forums. GD seemed like the best fit at the time.

We should totally have an election on the forums. That wouldn't get ugly at all. :rolleyes: lol.

How long has Eve Online been around?

They have done something similar for Asheron's Call. Except for the free travel. Turbine does not use this kind of event for hype or ads. Typically it is all Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA). There is very limited public feedback.

IMHO - Turbine simply is too tight with their money to do something like CCP does.

CCP does some things that may or may not interest our customer base. Like publish an over priced game magazine. Sell ISK for Euros via the PLEX program. A rather novel way to allow the operator to sell gold while attempting to lock out independent gold sellers.

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Originally Posted by Ayrolen

We should totally have an election on the forums. That wouldn't get ugly at all. :rolleyes: lol.

How long has Eve Online been around?

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Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

They have done something similar for Asheron's Call. Except for the free travel. Turbine does not use this kind of event for hype or ads. Typically it is all Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA). There is very limited public feedback.

IMHO - Turbine simply is too tight with their money to do something like CCP does.

CCP does some things that may or may not interest our customer base. Like publish an over priced game magazine. Sell ISK for Euros via the PLEX program. A rather novel way to allow the operator to sell gold while attempting to lock out independent gold sellers.

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Yeah. I don't see it happening. At least not the same way that CCP does it.

What I really took away from the whole article was the fact that their developers took the time to sit down with their players for a few days and actually work with them to improve their game. Face time. As opposed to say, starting a new thread. Face time > new thread.

The article didn't go into much detail about how exactly the councils are elected. I assume there is some steering, of sorts, by CCP such that the council doesn't become too biased. I assume CCP makes sure that the council is "diverse" enough so that all/most player types are represented and the majority of player concerns can be addressed and fixed. I also assume that the forum/player community in EvE isn't stupid enough to elect 10 council members that are only interested in, say, crafting... or too many members from the same guild.

In any event... it certainly seemed like an interesting solution. And the tone of the article seemed to express that the EvE players really dug it.

Heck, I can drive over there right now!

I've had numerous discussions with Turbine developers over the last decade, but it hasn't been face-to-face. It's been inside various games, via IMs outside the games, and via back-and-forth on forums. Certainly others have as well. They've also done some focus groups for this game in Westwood, although I haven't participated in those (and don't know if there were any expert users in the focus groups, or if they were aimed at new player experiences).

A day or two at their offices would certainly provide higher density of interaction, and it might provide higher quality information. But simply doing organized "interviews" in their own NDA testing programs would probably achieve much the same thing IMO.

Khafar

I don't know, I find it interesting in a day in age of "Go To Meeting" and similar services that people would think a sit down meeting that would cost a fortune to setup in a foreign country is preferable to web meetings.

It's even more perplexing when it's offered to discuss a product where tens of thousands gather together in a virtual space to do things together.

My guess would be that it's more of an advertising pitch with a reward being offered to attract interest.

Having a community selected representative for various aspects of the game could be quite useful. Having a player representative for each class might have prevented some of the more insulting 62 and 64 "upgrades" from making it into the game.

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The fist-pounding, shouting and occasionally messy exchanges between members would’ve fit right in on a reality TV show. One particularly bitter CSM member started his address to Sveinn J. Kjarval, the head of the Game Master group, with “I don’t hate you, but…” and proceeded to explain why he pretty much did hate him. It was a cathartic experience for the players; Zastrow told me, “Being able to look a game designer in the eye and pound your fist on the table to express your displeasure is something you just can’t do trolling forums. I can see the expression on their face change when I tell them what I think and see that it’s having an impact."

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This makes me think of people who scream across the counter in McDonald's when their order isn't right. To me this would be a deal breaker. If you can't act like a professional/adult, then I guess having a childish temper tantrum is more important than providing constructive criticism.

Overall, it's very interesting to see what they're doing with the CSM. It'd be neat to see it in action.

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Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

This makes me think of people who scream across the counter in McDonald's when their order isn't right. To me this would be a deal breaker. If you can't act like a professional/adult, then I guess having a childish temper tantrum is more important than providing constructive criticism.

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lol, yeah. I just don't see that kind of attitude going over very well with LOTRO devs. I think about someone yelling at Floon or ConstantGardener and seriously giggle inside.

The big takeaway from here for me was that there is a focused, concerted effort at least once a year to have devs interact with players. I'm not sure face-to-face is the best method, but it certainly could be useful

From a player's perspective, the interaction with devs is very inconsistent. Some devs, like ZC, Graalx2, Orion, etc. are at the very least moderately interactive with the playerbase but then look at the LM dev for example, nobody even knows that devs name and once they went to a group approach for class design, even then a dev didn't show up on the forums until the latest skill update turned out to be so bad ZC showed up to save the day. Then look at PvP forums - again inconsistent at best.

It would be great if Turbine would be a bit more consistent, a little less tight-lipped about ideas and designs going on, maybe blogs (I love Orion's) or maybe at least indicate which devs work on what, even if it's the dreaded LOTRO Systems.

PC Gamer had a huge writeup about this Eve Online CSM one or two issues ago. Was very interesting. Yes, there was much pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth, but that's mainly because these players are so passionate about the game. The people who go are elected by the players and there's a 'top ten' type of issues list that they were to discuss. Also, there was a professional moderator during all the meetings. I'm not sure if it's a 'recipe for success' for all MMOs, but it seems to work well for EO.

Harl

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Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

This makes me think of people who scream across the counter in McDonald's when their order isn't right. To me this would be a deal breaker. If you can't act like a professional/adult, then I guess having a childish temper tantrum is more important than providing constructive criticism.

Overall, it's very interesting to see what they're doing with the CSM. It'd be neat to see it in action.

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Perhaps one step you could take, would be to compile the responses to the "Ask the Community" threads, and forumlate a repsonse to the community. Taking a survey and then not publishing the results leaves the participants feeling "unsure" about how the data was recieved.

I know that the lack of a light at the end of the tunnel is what frustrates many of us who are unhappy with the current state of the game. If we had more communication, at least we could decide to leave or not.

Fine by me.

They wouldn't have to pay or put me up. I'd just take public transportation. :D

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Originally Posted by Sovrath

Fine by me.

They wouldn't have to pay or put me up. I'd just take public transportation. :D

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I could just meet them at Lambert's or Chipotle's on Rte 1. I would even buy them lunch!

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Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

...professional/adult...

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I'm both! When can I come over?

LOL!

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Originally Posted by Harlinator

PC Gamer had a huge writeup about this Eve Online CSM one or two issues ago. Was very interesting. Yes, there was much pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth, but that's mainly because these players are so passionate about the game. The people who go are elected by the players and there's a 'top ten' type of issues list that they were to discuss. Also, there was a professional moderator during all the meetings. I'm not sure if it's a 'recipe for success' for all MMOs, but it seems to work well for EO. Harl

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Well its safe to say that it's working but the jury's still out on how well its working. I know for certain that CCP last year released an unprecedented amount of new content and updates for that game yet players are still unhappy and feel the need to rant, vent and behave like spoiled brats ....

Its a novel idea that's netting eve online lots of publicity and I'm sure that translates to increased subscriptions so from that standpoint it's working well.

However if you read between the lines on all of these reports about their CSM the thing I notice most is even with this level of player interaction, CCP still gets shouted and yelled at by players so how is this making the game better? Obviously if players were happy and satisfied then there would be no need for finger pointing, fist pounding and shouting.... right?

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Originally Posted by BerensBane

I know for certain that CCP last year released an unprecedented amount of new content and updates for that game yet players are still unhappy and feel the need to rant, vent and behave like spoiled brats ....

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Of course they do, they're MMO GAMERS -- essentially the most demanding, fickle, and hard-to-please demographic on Earth. ;) Did anybody really expect them to say "wow, this is everything we ever dreamed of -- THANKS!"?? lol

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Originally Posted by BerensBane

Well its safe to say that it's working but the jury's still out on how well its working. I know for certain that CCP last year released an unprecedented amount of new content and updates for that game yet players are still unhappy and feel the need to rant, vent and behave like spoiled brats ....

Its a novel idea that's netting eve online lots of publicity and I'm sure that translates to increased subscriptions so from that standpoint it's working well.

However if you read between the lines on all of these reports about their CSM the thing I notice most is even with this level of player interaction, CCP still gets shouted and yelled at by players so how is this making the game better? Obviously if players were happy and satisfied then there would be no need for finger pointing, fist pounding and shouting.... right?

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Some people are just never happy or satisfied.

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Originally Posted by Ayrolen

We should totally have an election on the forums.

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What's the point? I'd win. :p

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Originally Posted by DarthMord

Some people are just never happy or satisfied.

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And some people aren't willing to settle for game systems that are not fun to play.

If Turbine wanted to do this, they could save some money by doing it at the same time they are at a trade show (or whatever those gaming conferences are called). It seems like at these shows there are a fair number of players and Turbine is already shelling out the money to go.

On top of that Turbine wouldn't need to pay for any of the participant's expenses: just maybe a room at the convention center, computers, internet hookups, and maybe refreshments. I bet most people going to a game conference would love to be part of a LOTRO focus group.

People could register with Turbine to let them know they are going and then they can randomly select a focus group from that lot. I'd say you could do a survey of all players to go in conjunction with the focus group.

Now granted, it won't be the best sample of the game (I don't see a lot of parents with small children going to these conferences or people with private business to take care of going --unless they are local). But it would give you an insight.

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Originally Posted by Ayrolen

lol, yeah. I just don't see that kind of attitude going over very well with LOTRO devs. I think about someone yelling at Floon or ConstantGardener and seriously giggle inside.

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Actually, I would pay for the trip out to Boston myself if that exchange were part of the experience. :p

I do wish that more MMO developers would take a more active role in exchanges with its players. Forums, official threads, chats where we submit questions are all passive. They provide a necessary psychological need of players to have confirmation that their concerns are heard. However, they do very little to confirm that what is developed adequately addresses the concerns. That requires far more player feedback and an absolute willingness to scrap an idea the minute a sizable group of players identify why such an idea is not correct.

To use Lotro as an example, even when Bullroarer is up with new content, most of the discussion is player driven, and often in regards to concepts that are beyond the point of being changed. What is changed is usually something very cosmetic in nature (i.e. tweaking things), while the larger systemic issues make their way through. Who can really say what the interactions on Isengard are like though. Even if you assume more responses by devs to forum posts, full discussion of ideas can take days, whereas in a more interactive setting a matter could be decided in an hour. Nothing beats collecting real-world gameplay data, but the issues with radiance/LI systems, for example, were fully analyzed and successfully predicted back in MoM beta.

Nothing against CSRs, because they do a wonderful job of managing the community, but they don't have the knowledge or authority to take part and represent Turbine's views on _why_ things are a certain way, or need to be a certain way. This was what makes developers like Floon so loved - he might shoot down a suggestion with a nuke, when a bullet would suffice, but he provided as detailed a reasoning of why the idea would never work. It gave other players more knowledge so that they could more intelligently police ideas themselves.

I feel like I've been saying this kind of thing since MoM was released, but the days of only game developers knowing what makes a good game are long gone. Players have enough experience with what features make a good game that many could and should be involved early on the design process. A person may not know enough about how to build a game (how many MMO players really understand the server-side algorithms to create an instance), but they can tell you if the idea you are describing is something they would want to play, long before you waste resources developing anything. At the very least, you can get data to validate or invalidate the multitude of assumptions that get made about what developers think their playerbase thinks.

Oh yeah, and pick me to come visit and talk game design with you guys. :D

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Originally Posted by delphinius81

I feel like I've been saying this kind of thing since MoM was released, but the days of only game developers knowing what makes a good game are long gone. Players have enough experience with what features make a good game that a trusted few can and should be involved early on the design process. A person may not know enough about how to build a game, but they can tell you if the idea you are describing sounds fun, long before you waste resources developing anything.

Oh yeah, and pick me to come visit and interview you guys. :D

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I am certain there are plenty of people like this involved with Turbine's development team already, they're just bound by NDA. Just because we don't know who they are doesn't mean Turbine isn't talking to somebody before they develop/release content. I'm sure they don't just throw a dart at a dart-board and queue up whatever project it lands on next. ;)

Interesting article, indeed. If it were to happen, how about each server selects one representative?

/starts his campaign immediately.