Here are the proposed Reaver revisions for Isengard.
Keep in mind that these are just ideas- nothing set in stone.
http://my.lotro.com/user-1317796/201...eaver-updates/
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Here are the proposed Reaver revisions for Isengard.
Keep in mind that these are just ideas- nothing set in stone.
http://my.lotro.com/user-1317796/201...eaver-updates/
Going to be interesting how this one pans out they are very powerful as it is now. With these changes small group-solo fight will be a lot harder for freeps.
You are seriously going to give a high ranked reaver a self heal that will give up to 200 morale per hit? Rename them godlings then along with the self heal grant a stun for a skill that cannot be stopped once inducted, usually beyond bow range, that will still get the reaver in melee range plus some attack time before wearing out.
Charge was given to reavers to get them into melee range... not in and back out again. Now you are adding a stun to the mix? Why is that necessary? With the additions of morale/resists/mits to the reavers over time charge is plenty tough enough to deal with as it is.
I played a reaver to rank 4 before we had charge and understood the need for it then, but now you are adding to skill that is maybe one of the best on either side. If this is polishing I hate to see what you would have done by tweaking a reaver.
Did you even consider the AOE aspect to the heal.. bad enough that a reaver can get 5 hits off on a single target by using two skills .. that is a 750-1200 heal right there (add 3 more if they are rank 13 for another 450-600 heal). If they are including the AOE damage a rank 13 reaver can use three skills to hit a total of 15 targets for a 2250-3000 point heal. Then choose to go single target and add another 1200-1800 more healing for a strike combo? Now that is an ideal situation, but can you really justify a 6 strike heal that can possibly net them a 3450-4800 heal? Especially when they can charge an rk stun him and a kill him to start the whole thing rolling.
Dear God.... you might as well hand them the keys to your car, give them the tv remote and use a sharpie to mark the places your wife likes to be tickled because once he gets inside a group he is never leaving. Add in the HOT stacking for the defilers and a war leader bubble and you wouldn't be able to dps fast enough to take down a 9k reaver. Please think this over.. you never even said how long the buff is going to last. You can get 6 attacks off at melee range in 12 seconds, so please rethink this polishing.
I absolutely cannot believe I'm reading that you're proposing giving reavers CC while in charge...this is...quite honestly the most ludicrous idea I have ever seen suggested.
Sure, why not make the reaver even more insanely powerful so they can 3 shot light armor freeps while they're now stunned *boggle*. I mean, why wouldn't they need a stun in addition to their speed, CC counters, damage, reflect, get away skill, and morale pool :confused:
I'm with rancor on this one.
The low rank reavers needs a help (as do all creeps) but high rank reavers right now are intense beasts with armour and migitation that matches up to a tank and dps that is only avoidable by kiting.
Skills like ability to reset dev strike, 3 stacking bleeds with 15 sec cooldown, combining charge with stun (a good alternative is to put a slow with their current bladethrowing skill from range) and heals on attacks after death response is going to make their extremely powerful.
They need things that allows them not to be kited by other ppl, more skills that implement SLOWS.
Well, that looks pretty cool.
I really like the changes to Trash and Charge.
Wrath looks very nice, but also quite powerful. Combined with ravage+gut punch, disarm and trash, it can get close to a 2k heal. I suppose it wouldnt have a long duration though.
I am kinda meh with improved Gut Punch. Personally, I kinda dislike jackpot/chance features. I can write whole essays about why I dislike it in PvP, but nvm that. I prefer skills to be predictable. Not sure about a possible change to it though, will think about it.
On Brandyzerg, I measure quality pvp by my ability to "lock down" people. So hot!! This will work great when I'm spamming my one-hit, killing skill. I love player versus lock down! Now, I can player versus lock down and I can spam my one-hit kill button! Pure quality game development!
It's fine and good. Now, we can saver our mass resurrections. On Brandyzerg, we need more reavers in god-mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinluen
I agree with several others: Reavers do NOT need CC.
As it stands, their charge gives them the maneuverability and speed to splice up a light armor target, especially an induction class like the LM, swiftly, efficiently, and without much trouble at all at mid-higher ranks. Adding a CC in there would just add insult to injury... there's no need for their target to be immobilized; they're zooming around so fast already if the target tried to run they wouldn't escape!
Overall I like the idea of the majority of these skills. Thrash is a rank 13 skill or rank 12 I believe, so most won't have to worry about it. I like the idea of increased gut punch, especially if it resets DS (Just please dont' make it a trait to get improved). Wrath is definatly interesting, I found on my rank 9 reaver I only used it in PvE stuff or if I won a 1v1 easily. But it is welcome, as it's another heal, since Glory in Victory can be a pretty weak skill. I love the idea of sudden strikes stunning in Charge! For those who are complaining about it, it's 3 seconds, so it's in the same boat with captain's routing cry for duration (traited routing cry).
Overall I think this is welcome and will keep reavers in the fight longer. With all the ranged/tacticals, charging into them usually doens't end well, especially if it's into a raid. Though for 1v1's this will be crazy. Luckily though for 1v1's you won't have to worry about the wrath heal if you're dead ;)
The captain doesn't have complete immunity and an insane run buff to get inside to deliver the stun, and face it with the animation the stun shake off takes it to about 4.5 seconds with the added 8 seconds of charge.... not a well thought out plan here. Cappies aren't stacking major bleeds which only one can be healed by a pot either if these go through.
Younger reavers need the help this polishing is benefitting the level 8 reavers and higher who already are tough to take down the way it is.
Tydalmir
I only mentioned how the proposed Sudden strikes in charge stun has the same duration as Captain's routing cry.
You say this is only benefiting the rank 8+? Well it is, because that's where the updates need to occur. After a while high ranked reavers, like most other creep classes get nothing good, or the new stuff is very limited.
Besides, as a reaver who plays solo, I'm more looking forward to the increased damage on Gut punch, and the chance to finally stun those tactical classes (it'll be for the multiple stuns/slows they give ;) )
I also agree that the reaver is a well-balanced class at high rank, probably the most balanced class to fight any freep. Mine is rank 12, to be 13, and each issue I've seen with the class has been dealt with for the most part through time...a long, long time lol...since Book 12 SoA. The only remaining problem I have with the class is combating the use of kiting. If Hamstring misses (which it does entirely too often IMO), then it's pretty much game over when 1v1'ing against top level Runekeepers, LM's, and hunters. They already have enough snares/CC to lock you down at range regardless since Hamstring is only a 25% snare. I propose adding a 3-5 second root, breakable on damage, to Blade Toss to remedy the issue. This would make it similar to the Rangers dagger toss and Small Snag.
I like the changes proposed here. I have one suggestion coming from the Wrath change. Since Wrath will now heal morale instead of power, you may want to think about increasing the initial power return on Time-Out. I on occasion will use Wrath now to get a big surge of power in the DoF or towards the end of a moderate to large PvP engagement in order to snag a couple KB's. If Time-Out is to be our only form of replenishing our power pools besides eating a pot, then I see this being an issue, especially with a 2 minute cooldown on Power Pots. Right now it only returns 100-150 power, so I'd suggest something more like 350-400, enough to crack off a DS.
Improved Gut Punch pretty sweet. The damage increase is not necessary, but I love the crit mechanic, obviously lol. I do feel you're piling a lot on for hitting rank 7 though. When you hit 7, you will be able to get Rage of the Misbegotten (+10% health, +260 melee/tactical crit rating) Blade Toss (takes a class trait slot), Severing Strike, and now Improved Gut Punch. Feels like a lot of powerful skills/traits being awarded for a relatively easy rank to achieve in this age.
I'd suggest swapping Improved Gut Punch with Upper Hand. This way rank 7 is less of a milestone, and Upper Hand is not a skill that has many uses outside of 1v1's and small engagements. Rank 9 currently has nothing substantial to offer besides Dying Rage.
I also suggest making the stun attached to Sudden Strikes available at a later rank through a class trait. It's far too powerful to be coming from a rank 5 and under reaver. Rank 8 looks like a good fit for this trait.
Editing my post to reflect the fact that I beleive these ideas are epicly hilarious.
Champs can completely immune themselves to CC for longer than 8 seconds, and have access to both a 3 second and with the right legacy a 10 second aoe stun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinluen
With what kind of cool down? The reavers can do that every time they get out of combat or break LOS. I was talking cappies, but okay we can go down the champ line if you want.. what kind of BPE do the champs have compared to the reaver? If these changes go live how can any champ match the healing that the reavers will get or the stacking bleeds?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sezneg
Come on do you really think they need the stun? No one is talking about the crazy amount of healing they can do while dpsing with the polishing being suggested. You are talking two skills that do some heavy damage AND will act like a heal pot. Three seconds tops to get both skills off and a high rank reaver can get a 2k heal by pushing one more button. That is single target, and the dev said per hit.. if that includes AOE damage it will be completely game breaking. I love creep side and know they need changes, but the richer are getting filthy rich if they do what they propose.
I think the spider changes are pretty much spot on, the BA is good without the crazy spammable hinders shot, war leaders get some love as well that I can't argue with, and defiler HOTs should stack, but you may have to look at the numbers to tweak them a bit. The reaver needs nothing except a way to help minimize kiting... no heals, no stuns, no crazy bleed numbers. Give them more power, fine if they need it great, but as a DPS machine they don't need any help putting steel on the target.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sezneg
and champs have ZERO block evade parry.
I know that reavers needs skills that allows them to catch up to targets that are KITING them. Right now charge + 3 sec stun doesn't do that. After that 3 sec is done, any class with 25% + slow will be able to kite them and kill them. The only thing this new charge skill changes is that reavers can now do more charge ins and actually manage to get their kill and charge out.
As for thrash with 15 sec cooldown from 15 minute cooldown. Just because its a rank 13 skill doesn't mean it should be this powerful. With 3 stacking bleeds and indication of fast skill, im sure rank 13+ reavers will be unstoppable again. Turbine really needs to fix this mess up. Its the LOW RANK REAVERS that need help not the high rank ones.
Ok, lets keep this short..
Give reavers a way to break a slow besides a worthless 2 min CD wound pot that only works on some wounds, add a slow effect, or root effect to blade toss, add bleed damage without wasting a worthless trait.
Done deal.
everything else is really not needed.
totally agreed!!Quote:
Originally Posted by witchking782
Thinking about it, these seem mostly disgustingly overpowered. I have no idea what Isengard is going to bring to freeps, so I can't really say for sure what the balance will be like, however.
Thrash is awesome, and it'd actually be a skill at a high rank that people would want, which is cool, since most high Reaver skills/upgrades are useless. It would be extremely powerful, but very rare as a R13 skill.
Charge and Sudden Strikes ideas are silly. These skills are already amazing and are the bread and butter of Reaver skills. I don't think they need a buff like this.
I actually cried a little when I saw the proposed Wrath changes, honestly. I know people are always saying Wrath is useless and not even on people's hotbars, but I love Wrath. New Wrath is kind of a cool idea, again too powerful, but I'd much rather it be implemented as a new skill, or heck, replace Time-out or Blood-lust. Wrath is my favorite defeat response, personally. It is very situational, but it is a very valuable skill as it is.
Gut Punch resetting Dev is a little scary. I'd honestly rather the trait lower the power cost and cooldown instead.
Again, we can only judge as we see it now. No one will know the full picture until they see what the freeps get as well.
EDIT: I'd just like to add that I'm very grateful that we're getting some dev time. Thanks Kelsen!
When devs who DONT EVEN PVP start making these absurd suggestions, i really get irratated. Interview a group of QUALITY pvpers who know what the hell they are talking about and additionally, know how to properly balance classes. WHen devs add stuff just because it will boost their "fan ratings" it makes me sick.
OK I misread the Wrath changes. I had just assumed the power replenishment part of it was being completely removed and replaced with the new portion of the skill.
Now I feel that the statements being made about Wrath are also misguided. Take into effect that the reaver is losing HALF of their morale to use this skill, so the ability to heal myself by staying in the fray and attacking is quite welcome, and not overpowered as others are claiming.
Look at it this way. After you use Wrath in the middle of a fight, you're going to have 3700-5000 morale to work with depending on your corruptions...that's half of your untouched health bar. You're going to need heals given the fact that half of freep classes can crit for over 3K damage with 1 skill. This is where the self-healing portion of Wrath helps the reaver. You are forced to stay in the fray and swing away to regen the morale lost. Now I agree that the morale return does seem a bit high on paper, but on the field it will not be OP like others are claiming...especially when you're also taking AOE freep damage and focus fire.
Wrath will remain very situational, and will be still be seldom used.
On their being immune to CC? None.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinluen
On their AOE 3 second stun? 30 seconds (OMG that would be the same cooldown on charge + sudden strikes stun!)
And wait 30 seconds for charge to cooldown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinluen
Champs can do that every 30 seconds too, except they don't have to break combat or LOS and will stun more people.
While in traited CBR, champions gain +50% to all resists. That's additive. There is no resist cap. Personally, the only damaging ability I have that doesn't get a resist check is my auto attack. Throw in 45 second legacied sprint. Still want to complain about a melee class running in and out without your ability to slow/cc/kill them? Might as well toss in pledged charging guardians as well. OMG both sides have melee classes that can drive by run in and do damage/stun!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinluen
It's a single 3 second stun. That's hardly game-breaking. In a 1v1 fight (what a lot of people seem to be referencing here) it's just going to be potted, and is then pretty much non-repeatable. Heck, against an lm/burglar/guardian it's not even going to be used.
In a group fight, it's not going to do much at all.
From a reaver's perspective, in an environment dominated currently by tactical damage, +50% resists would be many times more valuable than the reaver's b/p/e... but who knows WHAT the environment is going to look like post-expansion...
This is EXPANSION data. We have no idea ??? freeps are getting with 10 levels of advancement (mounted combat?! new skills as opposed to revised skills... we really have NO idea)
You can't look at this with ANY sort of eye as to how things are now. Not until we have any sort of idea how stats/vitals will be scaled.
For all we know, reavers will have their b/p/e nerfed. For all we know, minstrels will get a skill that full heals them on a stun. It's completely inappropriate to make any sort of complaint about any of these potential changes based how things are now.
You are right who knows, but there is no purpose for the stun... none for a reaver. They need a ranged slow or root to counteract kiting for 1v1.. they need power restoration, they do not need a heal that will give them at least a good 2k heal in three shots and a simply crazy AOE version that can equal a spider heal while dealing out tons of damage. Why do they need stacking bleed on top of the damage they can already do at this time?
You talk pledge and guards what about a 8 second sprint + 3 second stun + 16 second bubble that the reaver then regens like mad while chewing up the freep group because someone thought it would be cool to do 4-6k of damage while healing over 2-4k at the same time in less than 12 seconds.
Like I said before I can get behind almost all the suggested changes except the reaver and the wargs... sorry but both are over the top. Other servers will not be effected as badly as E will be. Remember we have many r8 reavers and higher that will reap the benefits of these changes. Five of these killing machines in freep lines will make a champ ball look like a defiler's dps.
Rancor, most of these changes are additive, that is unless otherwise stated they are adding effects to current abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tinluen
Wrath costs a reaver 50% of their morale. Adding the heal portion only means that the reaver can, if not stopped in some way, replace what he lost just for using the skill.
Also, he gave us the heal amount... but what IS 200 morale a swing? Right now? that's a lot. What is it at level 75? (remember when man heal was a full morale bar?)
Thrash will be balanced around the fact that it stacks. We have no idea, it could be a 45 common every 4 seconds per stack for all we know. We HAVE NO IDEA. And thrash is rank 13, a lot less rank 13 reavers running around.
Like I said, we have no idea how any of this will play out at level 75. There's no point trying to imagine how anything will look until we get to see the freep skills and how the vital bar/defenses of each side scale.
Also: LoL @ complaining about wargs getting the same improved HIPS mechanic burglars can get at rank 9... at rank 9.