Physical mitigation- question

So on the physical mitigation tool tip it only displays:
common mit

On the Tactical tool tip it displays:-
Shadow mit
Acid mit
Fire mit
etc...


So does this mean that physical mitigation will only work for common damage?

Pre RoI we had a situation like so:
You are hit with a MELEE attack for 1000 FIRE damage

So here it would first check the source defence (melee defence) and take a percentage off
It would then use the appropriate mitigation damage type (fire defence) to work out what you are hit for.

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Post RoI
From the tool tips, my understanding is:
You are hit with a MELEE attack for 1000 FIRE damage
This will only check tactical defence, even though the attack source is physical?

If this is the case then physical mitigation will only be useful against any mobs which do common damage, making it useless in some raid encounters and the moors I guess.

Anyone maybe even a dev have confirmation on this?

I second this request for information as it will have a huge impact on itemisation, trait setups etc.

Skills are defined by the classification of the method of damage delivery, melee, ranged or tactical. So debuffs like Wind-lore affect all Ranged skills.

Damage is defined by it's damage type, Common, Beleriand, Fire etc. The damage type determines which mitigation is used. Common, Westerness, Ancient Dwarf, Beleriand all use Physical Mitiagation. Fire, Shadow, Light, Acid, Lightning, Frost and whatever else I've missed all use Tactical Mitigation.

So a Warg that uses a melee attack that inflicts Shadow damage is affected by Fire-lore as that affects all melee skills. After the skill is determined to hit then the (reduced) Shadow damage is mitigated by the targets Tactical Mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Graalx2

Skills are defined by the classification of the method of damage delivery, melee, ranged or tactical. So debuffs like Wind-lore affect all Ranged skills.

Damage is defined by it's damage type, Common, Beleriand, Fire etc. The damage type determines which mitigation is used. Common, Westerness, Ancient Dwarf, Beleriand all use Physical Mitiagation. Fire, Shadow, Light, Acid, Lightning, Frost and whatever else I've missed all use Tactical Mitigation.

So a Warg that uses a melee attack that inflicts Shadow damage is affected by Fire-lore as that affects all melee skills. After the skill is determined to hit then the (reduced) Shadow damage is mitigated by the targets Tactical Mitigation.

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Shouldn't it go against the physical mitigation first since it's a melee attack and then against tactical mitigation since it's a shadow damage attack? That's how it used to work, damage source first and then damage type.

I agree. There's definitely some confusion around the "type" of damage and the "source" of damage.

I'd love to know how this works.

As I see it, there are Resistances...these mitigate Wound, Poison, Disease, Fear...the "pot" effects as I know them.

Then there's Tactical...which is Shadow, Fire, Ice, Acid...the "creep" damage types.

And all that makes sense. UNTIL you start to look at Melee.

Is melee just Common? Or can a melee attack be Fire for instance in which case it'd be mitigated by your Melee defense AND Tactical.

This is where it all gets confusing. Melee&Ranged. Are they just Common defenses? In which case Armor seems pretty useless.

Graalx2,

Would it be too much to have a couple page Dev Diary around this? With specific damage examples across a couple different class builds?

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Originally Posted by Graalx2

http://preview.turbine.com/images/buttons/edit.gif

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Why is this button here...?lol

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Originally Posted by Graalx2

Skills are defined by the classification of the method of damage delivery, melee, ranged or tactical. So debuffs like Wind-lore affect all Ranged skills.

Damage is defined by it's damage type, Common, Beleriand, Fire etc. The damage type determines which mitigation is used. Common, Westerness, Ancient Dwarf, Beleriand all use Physical Mitiagation. Fire, Shadow, Light, Acid, Lightning, Frost and whatever else I've missed all use Tactical Mitigation.

So a Warg that uses a melee attack that inflicts Shadow damage is affected by Fire-lore as that affects all melee skills. After the skill is determined to hit then the (reduced) Shadow damage is mitigated by the targets Tactical Mitigation.

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Thanks for clearing this up Graalx - it's been an open question of mine for a while.

I guess this means that for PvP, I may as well stack tactical mitigation and not bother with physical - most high ranks use tactical damage for the most part, and low ranks won't have the Finesse to cut through my BPE ratings.

Where does this leave the dedicated melee/ranged/tactical defence (as opposed to mitigation) ratings? I notice that these are still in game, but the sources of them are now quite limited (I've got a little from the old T8 relics pre LI revamp).

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Originally Posted by IyvanEU

I guess this means that for PvP, I may as well stack tactical mitigation and not bother with physical - most high ranks use tactical damage for the most part, and low ranks won't have the Finesse to cut through my BPE ratings.

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Kinda feels backwards though doesn't it? That's the conclusion I'm coming too as well...except for below:

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Originally Posted by IyvanEU

Where does this leave the dedicated melee/ranged/tactical defence (as opposed to mitigation) ratings? I notice that these are still in game, but the sources of them are now quite limited (I've got a little from the old T8 relics pre LI revamp).

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This is my question. Honestly, how does this fit in?

Doesn't it seem like they made things more complicated in an effort to simplify? Maybe it's just me.

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Originally Posted by Graalx2

Skills are defined by the classification of the method of damage delivery, melee, ranged or tactical. So debuffs like Wind-lore affect all Ranged skills.

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So this sentence makes it sound like skills still go against Incoming Melee/Ranged/Tactical now condensed into Physical and Tactical.

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Originally Posted by Graalx2

Damage is defined by it's damage type, Common, Beleriand, Fire etc. The damage type determines which mitigation is used. Common, Westerness, Ancient Dwarf, Beleriand all use Physical Mitiagation. Fire, Shadow, Light, Acid, Lightning, Frost and whatever else I've missed all use Tactical Mitigation.

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This sentence confuses the matter (at least for me) as we don't take damage from Westernesse, Ancient Dwarf or Beleriand, unless we're sparring. It also doesn't make it clear if Fire, Shadow, Acid, Lightening and Frost bypass Physical entirely, even if it's a melee or ranged skill doing the damage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Graalx2

So a Warg that uses a melee attack that inflicts Shadow damage is affected by Fire-lore as that affects all melee skills. After the skill is determined to hit then the (reduced) Shadow damage is mitigated by the targets Tactical Mitigation.

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This is the most confusing sentence of all, maybe because I'm not a LM and I'm getting confused by fire lore and wind lore references. So after looking up fire lore (+2% miss chance and -30% melee damage) it appears that the damage is reduced by fire lore because it's a melee attack and then reduced by tactical mitigation because it's shadow damage. Does this work the same way with Physical mitigation and Tactical mitigation?

Step 1. Warg hits me with a melee skill that does shadow damage.
Step 2. Attack is melee so mitigated by Physical Mitigation.
Step 3. Reduced damage is Shadow so it is further mitigated by Tactical Mitigation.
Step 4. The twice mitigated damage (melee reduced by physical mitigation, shadow reduced by tactical) is applied to my morale.

Step 1. 1,000 point melee shadow attack hits me.
Step 2. 55% Physical Mitigation reduces attack to 450 shadow damage.
Step 3. 35% Tactical Mitigation reduces shadow damage to 192.
Step 4. 9,000 morale reduced to 8,807 morale.

Is that about right?

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Originally Posted by Graalx2

damage type determines which mitigation is used. Common, Westerness, Ancient Dwarf, Beleriand all use Physical Mitiagation.

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And how many mobs hit with those other than common? Basically you are saying the physical mit is ONLY good for common damage. I guess I'm stacking tact mit first and physical mit second.

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Originally Posted by UndeadKing

So this sentence makes it sound like skills still go against Incoming Melee/Ranged/Tactical now condensed into Physical and Tactical.


This sentence confuses the matter (at least for me) as we don't take damage from Westernesse, Ancient Dwarf or Beleriand, unless we're sparring. It also doesn't make it clear if Fire, Shadow, Acid, Lightening and Frost bypass Physical entirely, even if it's a melee or ranged skill doing the damage.


This is the most confusing sentence of all, maybe because I'm not a LM and I'm getting confused by fire lore and wind lore references. So after looking up fire lore (+2% miss chance and -30% melee damage) it appears that the damage is reduced by fire lore because it's a melee attack and then reduced by tactical mitigation because it's shadow damage. Does this work the same way with Physical mitigation and Tactical mitigation?

Step 1. Warg hits me with a melee skill that does shadow damage.
Step 2. Attack is melee so mitigated by Physical Mitigation.
Step 3. Reduced damage is Shadow so it is further mitigated by Tactical Mitigation.
Step 4. The twice mitigated damage (melee reduced by physical mitigation, shadow reduced by tactical) is applied to my morale.

Step 1. 1,000 point melee shadow attack hits me.
Step 2. 55% Physical Mitigation reduces attack to 450 shadow damage.
Step 3. 35% Tactical Mitigation reduces shadow damage to 192.
Step 4. 9,000 morale reduced to 8,807 morale.

Is that about right?

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No, it's a melee attack not a physical one.

1. 1k dmg
2. physical mitigation does nothing. 10% melee mitigation reduces attack to 900dmg
3. 35% Tactical mitigation reduces it to 585.
4. 9000 morale reduced to 8415 morale.

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Originally Posted by Korgain

No, it's a melee attack not a physical one.

1. 1k dmg
2. physical mitigation does nothing. 10% melee mitigation reduces attack to 900dmg
3. 35% Tactical mitigation reduces it to 585.
4. 9000 morale reduced to 8415 morale.

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Except Melee and Ranged mitigation was rolled into Physical Mitigation. That's why there's so much confusion. Fire Lore reduces melee attacks by 30%, Physical mitigation reduces melee attacks by whatever percentage your character has.

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Originally Posted by Korgain

No, it's a melee attack not a physical one.

1. 1k dmg
2. physical mitigation does nothing. 10% melee mitigation reduces attack to 900dmg
3. 35% Tactical mitigation reduces it to 585.
4. 9000 morale reduced to 8415 morale.

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So we're back to the OP's original hypothesis:

Physical mitigation only applies to Common damage. Therefore, when facing enemies that use tactical damage types, Physical mitigation is useless.

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Originally Posted by UndeadKing

Except Melee and Ranged mitigation was rolled into Physical Mitigation. That's why there's so much confusion. Fire Lore reduces melee attacks by 30%, Physical mitigation reduces melee attacks by whatever percentage your character has.

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emphasis added

No, Melee resistance reduces Melee attacks. Physical mitigation reduces Physical (not Tactical) damage.

However, the only kind of Physical damage that isn't "Tactical" is Common damage.

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Originally Posted by Ioffryd

Physical mitigation only applies to Common damage. Therefore, when facing enemies that use tactical damage types, Physical mitigation is useless.

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QFT

The majority of monsters in the game will do some form of Common damage even if its not their primary attack. I wouldn't ignore Physical Mitigation just because it only affects one type of damage and not many as Tactical Mitigation does.

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Originally Posted by Graalx2

QFT

The majority of monsters in the game will do some form of Common damage even if its not their primary attack. I wouldn't ignore Physical Mitigation just because it only affects one type of damage and not many as Tactical Mitigation does.

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Well then why not just nix physical mitigation and increase common mitigation even more? That would've avoided a lot of confusion and achieved the exact same thing. Also why take out all the -Ranged/Melee stuff if Physical damage wasn't taking their place? This design decision doesn't make sense from where I'm sitting, and it totally screws tanks over.

What I took this to mean(from Graalx2's post) is that a reaver doing fire damage, a warg doing shadow damage, and a ba doing fire damage, will all get mitigated by tactical mit, NOT physical. Debuffs on the creep/mob will affect the damage source, e.g. a -20% melee damage debuff will make it do 20% less melee damage. The remaining damage is checked against your tactical mit, if it's fire/shadow/etc. In short, debuffs affect the damage from the damager based on damage source, mitigations affect the damage to the damagee based on damage type.

Yep and since they changed all the Ranged/Melee mitigation traits to "Physical" mitigation, they nerfed the hell out of mitigations. Now I don't have -12% melee damage from traits and scrolls, I have the -1.8% from the scroll.

So just a point blank point out if im getting all this correctly.

In The Moors / PVMP vs just about any DPS Creep out there..

Tact mitigation will be the only real thing to have (between the two Mitigations) since pretty much every DPS class i fight against has some form of Damage type ( Fire,shadow etc) reducing Physical mitigations almost useless?

So that reaver swinging his swords around with all his fire damage does no physical damage from sharp point blades..

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Originally Posted by UndeadKing

Except Melee and Ranged mitigation was rolled into Physical Mitigation. That's why there's so much confusion. Fire Lore reduces melee attacks by 30%, Physical mitigation reduces melee attacks by whatever percentage your character has.

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I think it would be more precise to say that Melee and Ranged Resistance was removed, and any items/traits with that ability were converted to Physical or Tactical Mitigation (which before the patch would just have been called Common or Fire or Acid or Lightning or whatever damage mitigation). That whole concept of an additional reduction in damage based on the type of skill used appears to be gone now (short of modifiers from the monsters' own buffs or debuffs). Basically, if you have X incoming damage, all that matters now is the type and your Mitigation to that type. The confusion really comes because we used to have a stat that reduced all incoming melee damage regardless of damage type and that stat doesn't exist anymore, so people are equating it with the thing they replaced it with on the items.

There are 3 ways dmg can be delivered:
Melee (swords, axes, spears etc)
Ranged (bows, Xbows, throwing axes, etc)
Tactical (spells)


Then there are 2 types of dmg.
Physical (common, westernesse, beleriand , ancient dwarf)
Tactical (fire, cold, acid, light, shadow, etc)



So a fire arrow will use ranged + tactical mitigations
While a westernesse axe will use melee + physical
A warg will do melee + tactical (shadow)
A RK will use tactical (spells) + tacitcal (fire/cold/light)

etc.

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Originally Posted by Graalx2

QFT

The majority of monsters in the game will do some form of Common damage even if its not their primary attack. I wouldn't ignore Physical Mitigation just because it only affects one type of damage and not many as Tactical Mitigation does.

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That same majority of monsters in the game are trivial fights where losing is near impossible, and in the rare case of dying there's no real cost.

Where specific stacking and min/maxing become important, e.g. Raids and PvMP, the use of common damage is particularly low. And dying in these situations is a big deal.

I'd still like to see a couple pages of examples, it'd probably be the easiest to put together by someone who understands AND it would definitely be the easiest to understand if we saw the way damage flows from attack to the recipients morale bar.

Oh and btw...I LOVE the new combat log look. A big thumbs up on that one Devs!!

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Originally Posted by Gnoya

So just a point blank point out if im getting all this correctly.

In The Moors / PVMP vs just about any DPS Creep out there..

Tact mitigation will be the only real thing to have (between the two Mitigations) since pretty much every DPS class i fight against has some form of Damage type ( Fire,shadow etc) reducing Physical mitigations almost useless?

So that reaver swinging his swords around with all his fire damage does no physical damage from sharp point blades..

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It's starting to seem that way....Running a Champ in fervour as Mandos intended + the CB changes so no parry/evade even in CB....well...it's looking more and more painful.

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Originally Posted by Graalx2

The majority of monsters in the game will do some form of Common damage even if its not their primary attack. I wouldn't ignore Physical Mitigation just because it only affects one type of damage and not many as Tactical Mitigation does.

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So basically we should all stack Tactical Mit. first and Phy. Mit. is a distant second.

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Originally Posted by Korgain

There are 3 ways dmg can be delivered:
Melee (swords, axes, spears etc)
Ranged (bows, Xbows, throwing axes, etc)
Tactical (spells)


Then there are 2 types of dmg.
Physical (common, westernesse, beleriand , ancient dwarf)
Tactical (fire, cold, acid, light, shadow, etc)



So a fire arrow will use ranged + tactical mitigations
While a westernesse axe will use melee + physical
A warg will do melee + tactical (shadow)
A RK will use tactical (spells) + tacitcal (fire/cold/light)

etc.

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Tactical/Tactical? Really?

Something tells me this isn't right.