No Titles in Ortanc

I think it's a bit annoying that only the first 12 People beating Saruman CM get Titels - no Titel for all other CM - no complete Title - I think it's ab bit annoying if you couldn't be part of the raid were your Kin would kill Saruman Serverfirst and you didn't get ANY Title...

What do you think?
Before this Raid there was a Title in EVERY raidcluster for Killing anything - why not in Ortanc?

we were world first cm and didnt get a title either, so i guess there is no title.
But i agree, there should be more titles :P

I think the title is for server's first full t2c clear rather than just Saruman t2c.

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Originally Posted by Melmadoc

I think it's a bit annoying that only the first 12 People beating Saruman CM get Titels

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Originally Posted by sdf-blarelius

we were world first cm and didnt get a title either

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Is there or is there not a Saruman T2C server first title?

Also, I think we'll have to wait till someone beats F/F T2C to confirm if there's a whole raid clear title. I doubt it would be server first only if it requires all bosses T2C.

I am sure there will be a title for completing all the T2Cs.

I do agree though a different title should be given after the server first full clear, for everyone else who manages to clear all.

Titles should be given to everyone who achieves something or no-one, MMOs aren't a race with a level playing field, not least because access to beta and pre-beta content gives a seriously unfair advantage: 'server firsts' are meaningless, they are no indication at all of anything beyond the fact that a set of 12 people had these advantages while many others didn't, they certainly do NOT indicate those doing it are the best players on the server, much as they may vainly try to flaunt that.

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Originally Posted by Beastnas

Is there or is there not a Saruman T2C server first title?

Also, I think we'll have to wait till someone beats F/F T2C to confirm if there's a whole raid clear title. I doubt it would be server first only if it requires all bosses T2C.

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i can confirm that you dont get a title for saruman cm.

maybe for all 5 cms, gonna try f&f cm today, lets see if we can beat it, will be harder than saruman i guess since we didn't spend a lot time trying it (the saruman runs before the patch helped a lot).

It could be that there is a title for server first T2 Saruman, but they have been taken by groups that exploited.

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Originally Posted by Kraggy_Eldar

Titles should be given to everyone who achieves something or no-one, MMOs aren't a race with a level playing field, not least because access to beta and pre-beta content gives a seriously unfair advantage: 'server firsts' are meaningless, they are no indication at all of anything beyond the fact that a set of 12 people had these advantages while many others didn't, they certainly do NOT indicate those doing it are the best players on the server, much as they may vainly try to flaunt that.

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Ah, but isn't thinking that a "server first" is entirely dependant on early access equally foolish to thinking it makes you the server best? Wait, don't answer. I was just asking rhetorically.

I don't really see anybody claiming anything about what meaning these titles hold in this thread. Where did that come from? Or rather, why are you bringing it here? Again, don't answer. I already know why.

Was going to wait until F&F Challenge fell to let this out of the bag but now seems just as appropriate.

There is a meta challenge within Orthanc. It has not been done on any server yet.

It requires all challenges to be completed in a single 'run' of the instance. You can reset each challenge as many times as you want so long as you ultimately beat them all and the instance itself never resets. People can leave to retrait and come back, you can swap members of the group, etc, all of that is valid. So long as the instance itself is never collapsed. Some causes of that are group disbandment and if the instance is empty for a period of time.

There is a title for accomplishing this at any point in time.
There is a unique title for being the first group on the server to do it.

For those who are interested, the reason we went with all challenges was a response to feedback on how we did the OD challenge and the play behaviour that generated from it.
Since OD was just the last boss' challenge, once the server first was discovered several kins cleared on tier 1 then just fought gortheron on tier 2. This defeated a large part of the intent and cheapened the accomplishment and you all were correct to point that out. This iteration we've shifted to all challenges to address the raised issues.

We could not have just done the first to complete all the challenges themselves, regardless of when, because we don't have the tech to do that. It would also be a shift to rewarding individuals...
(depending on who completed what when and the various group makeups, say only 2 of the people in on the F&F challenge have done the other 4 challenges. Are they the only ones to get the server first, does the rest of the group get it when they catch up, how many individuals get the server first before we transition it over. What if that number is crossed mid group that just completed, do some people get left out. Since this is all acting on the individual now we need a lot of messaging back and forth and a new system for the game to track and measure all of this. Etc. There's lots of really gnarly situations that develop with that model and too much tech required for something that doesn't affect that many players in the end.)
... as opposed to rewarding the group, which really makes the more sense given the raid environment and requirement for a top tier well synced group of people.

I'm sure most people wont like the idea hence the difficulty completing ToO in one go but i must admit that its really cool addition..I liked the idea and thanks for letting us know of tittles' existance :)

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Originally Posted by Kraggy_Eldar

Titles should be given to everyone who achieves something or no-one

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I agree with this, but not for the reasons you describe.

Giving such a title only to the 12 people who happen to be in the raid does not reflect the reality of the team effort that clearing a raid is. More than 12 members of a kin participate. Some might be pivotal to learning but can't make that night. Some miss out because a raid roster has more than 12 players in it. Some are on alts or miss out because of the class setup requirements of one or other fight. It is divisive and unnecessary, not between kins but within kins.

Server first titles serve no legitimate purpose.

I do, however, like the idea of a title for a single-instance clearance. That's something everyone can aspire to.

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Originally Posted by jwbarry

People can leave to retrait and come back, you can swap members of the group, etc, all of that is valid. So long as the instance itself is never collapsed. Some causes of that are group disbandment and if the instance is empty for a period of time.

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Ok, so for clarification, lets say 12 people clear everything but saruman, then one person swaps to an alt.

The alt and the rest of the 11 get the title, correct?

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Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth

Ok, so for clarification, lets say 12 people clear everything but saruman, then one person swaps to an alt.

The alt and the rest of the 11 get the title, correct?

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The 12 characters who are present in the instance when the Saruman challenge is completed are the ones who will receive the title.

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Originally Posted by jwbarry

The 12 characters who are present in the instance when the Saruman challenge is completed are the ones who will receive the title.

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Thanks for the clarification.

I'll probably never get this title, since i'm not part of a raiding kin, and my buddies and I only have 1 challenge down at the moment, but that really does stink for those in a raiding kin that are asked to alt a bunch, or are invited to only one wing.

Guess there's not a perfect solution, but this is still pretty cool.

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Originally Posted by jwbarry

The 12 characters who are present in the instance when the Saruman challenge is completed are the ones who will receive the title.

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This mechanic utterly ignores the reality of raiding kins, with rosters, rotations, the class requirements of each fight, use of more than one character etc.

My kin, for example, has 3 raiding GRDs, 3 BRGs, 3 MNS and 3 HNTs. All play a full role in our raiding, including the learning process. Asking one of each to stand down and miss out on the title is arbitrary, divisive and wholly unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

This mechanic utterly ignores the reality of raiding kins, with rosters, rotations, the class requirements of each fight, use of more than one character etc.

My kin, for example, has 3 raiding GRDs, 3 BRGs, 3 MNS and 3 HNTs. All play a full role in our raiding, including the learning process. Asking one of each to stand down and miss out on the title is arbitrary, divisive and wholly unnecessary.

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The problem is not the deed/title, the problem is the design of the raid itself when it comes to challange modes. Its all based on "dps-kill-hurry-hurry-destroy-timer is running down-I-can't believe this is not butter-omg" mechanic.

For certain challange modes we ask members in the kin to swap/change/etc. Its tough sometimes but it is what I call a "necessary evil". I do not agree with it but as of now that is the design/mechanic for the raid(s).

Unfortunatly bring in 3 guardians might hurt you trying to complete a challange mode. As mentioned, most challange modes are based around dps. Its a shame, but it is what it is. :(

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Originally Posted by jwbarry

It requires all challenges to be completed in a single 'run' of the instance.

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Thank you, thats just awesome imo :)

This requires you to not be just lucky, or doing one single boss until you get your kill, but to play well consistantly. I love it!

Some problem with alting could be fixed if these deeds were account-based, not char-based.

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Originally Posted by Astegorn

Some problem with alting could be fixed if these deeds were account-based, not char-based.

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This seems like an elegant solution and it also is a way to provide some recognition to players who play on a new server in the future.

Have the deed flag your LotrO subscription and operate titles like the pre-order beta.

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Originally Posted by Astegorn

Some problem with alting could be fixed if these deeds were account-based, not char-based.

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that would be a great compromise.

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Originally Posted by jwbarry

Was going to wait until F&F Challenge fell to let this out of the bag but now seems just as appropriate.

There is a meta challenge within Orthanc. It has not been done on any server yet.

It requires all challenges to be completed in a single 'run' of the instance. You can reset each challenge as many times as you want so long as you ultimately beat them all and the instance itself never resets. People can leave to retrait and come back, you can swap members of the group, etc, all of that is valid. So long as the instance itself is never collapsed. Some causes of that are group disbandment and if the instance is empty for a period of time.

There is a title for accomplishing this at any point in time.
There is a unique title for being the first group on the server to do it.

For those who are interested, the reason we went with all challenges was a response to feedback on how we did the OD challenge and the play behaviour that generated from it.
Since OD was just the last boss' challenge, once the server first was discovered several kins cleared on tier 1 then just fought gortheron on tier 2. This defeated a large part of the intent and cheapened the accomplishment and you all were correct to point that out. This iteration we've shifted to all challenges to address the raised issues.

We could not have just done the first to complete all the challenges themselves, regardless of when, because we don't have the tech to do that. It would also be a shift to rewarding individuals...
(depending on who completed what when and the various group makeups, say only 2 of the people in on the F&F challenge have done the other 4 challenges. Are they the only ones to get the server first, does the rest of the group get it when they catch up, how many individuals get the server first before we transition it over. What if that number is crossed mid group that just completed, do some people get left out. Since this is all acting on the individual now we need a lot of messaging back and forth and a new system for the game to track and measure all of this. Etc. There's lots of really gnarly situations that develop with that model and too much tech required for something that doesn't affect that many players in the end.)
... as opposed to rewarding the group, which really makes the more sense given the raid environment and requirement for a top tier well synced group of people.

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Thank you for telling us, jwb, as I'm not sure any group would have tried doing all challenges in a single run if you hadn't.

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Originally Posted by Crell_1

This seems like an elegant solution and it also is a way to provide some recognition to players who play on a new server in the future.

Have the deed flag your LotrO subscription and operate titles like the pre-order beta.

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That would require the instance to distribute 12 unique keys to be put into your account manually in order to work the same way because currently deeds and any other in-game activity, other than store related stuff (which is a completely different beast), is not capable of affecting an account.

Cool challenge. I'm looking forward to seeing kins earn both of the titles. I wouldnt get too hung up on which members of a kin are present for the server first one. I've always viewed these as foremost "kin" achievements regardless of whoever gets the final title. The title belongs to your kin tag not to you personally, and anyone that raids will know that.

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Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth

that would be a great compromise.

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If it were technically possible.

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Originally Posted by wikjif

That would require the instance to distribute 12 unique keys to be put into your account manually in order to work the same way because currently deeds and any other in-game activity, other than store related stuff (which is a completely different beast), is not capable of affecting an account.

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Eh.. It might be possible via the back-end store calls. 'Apply ProductToken: ToOT2ServerFirst ' Not claiming to have an idea of the work load, but trying to present ideas and solutions to encourage the creation of similiar content while being accessible to the players who put in the the effort. ; Plenty of people have to alt-between wings. The creation of once-per-server tech, and run the entire instance in one sitting tech, implies that this may not be entirely out of reach.