Minstrel Feedback on Helm's Deep

Any beta testers with positive things to say about the minstrel changes in Helm's Deep? From all the feedback I'm reading so far, it sounds unfortunately like Orion's changes and direction were completely abandoned, and the devs did not listen to any player feedback about the class changes.

Here's what I'm seeing so far,

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Originally Posted by Frieja

I was/am a beta tester from the first beta. The changes to my main class, Minstrel, have been soul crushing. I did a lot of testing and gave a lot of feedback during Beta #1 (as did many others). Unfortunately, NOTHING had changed for us in Beta #2. Minstrel was generally regarded as the most "alpha state" of all the classes. There have been some slight tweaks and modifications for Minstrels, but I still consider the class severely impaired.

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Originally Posted by chrohandhaivey

The uncontested loser is the minstrel. (Because this is the class I've spent the most testing time on, and this is the class that looks downright atrocious, I'll give you guys the most input here.) This class hit beta in a disaster state...Despite nearly unanimous negative feedback, this class has received no design changes from day one onward...The changes are implemented in an incredibly confusing manner, and even the class dev seems confused by the stance purposes and trait-line-alignment... the stance bonuses and skill alterations are jumbled around and not linked properly with the proper stance. I'm not even going to pretend to try to explain things as they are right now, because it's still awful. To Orion's credit he listened to the negative feedback ages ago and dropped the changes (leaving two toggleable stances and a "null" stance, reverting back to the name War-Speech that we'd always known, as we see it now on live). Unfortunately, no feedback whatsoever has been accepted this time around. In fact, a blatant disregard for feedback on this class has been the hallmark of this beta

Pure healing is insanely OP right now... honestly... I've not let anyone die in beta... and I've been so bored by the healing because I have less to do, not being able to buff anymore other than 1 buff at a time, that I've found myself drifting into watching tv as I'm running content. Damage is the same as always really, a little less on the skill rotations because some skills have been moved and locked into other trait lines (for instance, call of the second age, randomly now locked on healing). Yellow line is same as always not the best design and needs many changes in order to truly be viable as a standalone build. The number of problems with skills awkwardly being locked into other lines and you having no ability to reach them, incorrect bonuses or skill alterations, issues with stances, loss of hybridization from live, etc., are truly innumerable (yes, right now, currently, two weeks out). And I don't want to skim over that last one in the list there... there is a definite LOSS of hybridization from what we already have.

With the changes, you won't have enough trait points to truly hybridize in a "4B/3Y" ratio/nature in the two lines. Call to the Fellowship, Call to Greatness, Inspire Fellows, and any other group utility skill is now locked into the yellow tree and most of them are not achievable if you don't select that tree as your base tree (or if you do choose that tree, you lose Rally, TS, etc from your base healing skills that are locked into that line). You won't have any of your damage skills because those are locked into another tree, so mid-fight stance swapping will be pointless... The ability to hold more than 1 buff up at a time is locked into traiting the yellow line. So expect to be able to function strongly in 1 of the roles that we have on live while not being able to do anything worthwhile in the others. Your skill rotations will be greatly lessened, your toolbox will be eliminated, and you'll have a few core skills that you grind to death. It's a very boring setup with exceedingly minimal "synergy" (if you can even call it that). So while other classes are receiving synergy, creativity, and fun, the minstrel is receiving vanilla, simplistic, and boring.

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https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...52#post6984352

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Originally Posted by Atheling

For minstrels, I don't know. It's not the class Orion left. For better or worse, that's gone. It feels adequate for dps on landscape but you have concerns about whether that is sufficient for anything else. If anything else is actually ever really required. The replacement for harmony is too odd to try and set down into words. With polish it could well be fine. There's promise there. It's two weeks before release. Blue line healing is healthy. Perhaps overly so. But splitting things out across the three trait trees leaves you missing what isn't there. It's hard logging into live and then into beta.

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https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...28#post6984328

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Originally Posted by Veria

Class changes: as other posters already said, many classes get screwed over and lose what they loved but none come close to the treatment "revamped" Minstrel got. None of this is exaggeration. There have been about 30 pgs of class feedback thread and currently 25pg long thread with mostly great posts, detailed dps comparison, bugs, suggestions, etc. Unfortunately very very little of this was heard, or applied.It's gonna be harsh but our minstrel dev neither likes the class nor does she have knowledge of class, creativity and desire to bring meaningful improvements.

Suffice to say, while most other classes were getting page long changes almost every beta build and interaction with dev on forum few times a week, we kept getting handful of changes (or 0) and no word from her since early October.

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https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...63#post6984563

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Originally Posted by tkroll

The minstrel was my first main toon in this game. I loved it. I've always liked healing/support classes. And the minstrel offered a lot of flexibility.
Now that flexibility is much more difficult to achieve. Of the three classes I tested the minstrel is the class that I am the least happy with. It isn't just because of the trait trees, or out of spec penalties. It's the over all attitude that you have one job and it's all you can do. Healing is incredibly, incredibly potent but you have no dps with a healing set up. The dps set up doesn't seem powerful enough to sacrifice the ability to heal others for. Protector of Song- there seems to be some good there and if I play my minstrel after HD and still can't get the build I want then Protector is where I'll be (just another PoS minnie :P). The devs have thrown a few very small bones- they brought back Soliloquy of the Spirit (blue line only)and made Anthem of Composure accessible. But Anthem of the free peoples is gone. All three trait lines have passive "skills" with a primary purpose that seems just to suck up points.

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https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...02#post6984602

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Originally Posted by Beaniemooch

I tested the minstrel and so that's where my feedback focuses. This out of spec doesn't work well in my opinion. If you are in the dps/red tree the opening traits in the yellow and blue tree are increased crit healing, Soothing Voice to increase your healing output, Anthem of Composure (which you'll need for power return in red), Anthem cooldown and improved Inspire Fellows. You would have to spend at least an additional 10 points to get to the 2nd tier and nothing there was exciting either. T2 of the yellow tree does have increased tactical mastery, but by then you're hurting for points even if you skip some things in the dps line. Anything outside your main traitline costs 2 points rather than 1.

The class feels very unfinished for only two weeks to release. There is a lot that needs to be addressed and not long to do it before this goes live. I'm sure the changes will need to continue but at the moment it's very sad to me. I disliked losing half my skills at any one time as I tended to use them all situationally, whether raiding, instances, moors, solo playing, or just kicking back with friends in a mixture of any of that. I feel like half a character and not recognizable as the minstrel I have played for 5 years.

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https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...86#post6984886

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Originally Posted by Beaniemooch

This is the main problem I have with big battles as a minstrel, other than the fact that my class is a heartbreaking mess. You don't need a healer in there at all. No, it's never been specifically stated you don't but nobody has taken damage that I've seen in either solo or groups. As a minstrel I can't heal the NPCs who do take damage - I've tried. My fellows don't take damage - let's go back to the vid of the guardian auto-attacking mobs. So I'm left with a dps role only? I now have to compete in GLFF with groups "1/X for BBs, looking for dps classes"? Because even assuming we get a bump in dps I have to complete with a champ/RK/hunter/guard where I'll never have the dps they do. If I wanted to dps in raids I wouldn't be a minstrel.

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https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...78#post6985678

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Minstrel Legacy Eliminations:
Song of Subdual Cooldown
Piercing Cry Damage
Call of Oromë and Earendil Damage
Healing Threat
Anthem Duration

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https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...11#post6980911


Note: I'm not trying to cherry pick bad feedback, this is literally all the feedback I could find on Minstrel, if anyone has positive comments, I'd love to hear them. So far the only semi-good comment seems to be "Healing is so OP that it's boring."

Unfortunately, the foreshadowing of the smallest Dev Diary and what that implied about our class changes seems to have come true. But we do still have two weeks, so please keep posting feedback, we need to be vocal.

I've levelled my mini to 95 (the proper way!) in every build of HD beta and it has been fun every time with no class issues to speak of.

Yes, things are a bit different, and the new trait system takes a bit of getting used to, but, in general, I think the changes are positive and some, like "Call to Ioreth" (100% crit chance on next heal) are positively awesome . . . a guaranteed crit of something like 15-20k for the whole fellowship from Triumphant Spirit is quite something.

I have not read the threads you have posted - been there done that during beta and yes, some are unimpressed, but please bear in mind that those who do NOT like something are usually about 10 times more vocal than those who DO.

You can be the judge in a little under 2 weeks, which I, for one, am looking forward to.

It seems there's always one class that has to bite the bullet upon release of a new expansion. I remember upon release of RoI in 2011, Wardens had become completely broken. They were unplayable as tanks and useless as dps, so Wardens had to wait for several months before their issues could be fixed and had to be put on hold. I know more classes have gone through similar phases (including Minstrel in the Moria days), so I guess it's our turn again this time around.

I trust that eventually these problems will be fixed and rebalanced. In the meantime we will just have to make do with what we get and continue to provide feedback on the forums.

Since I am no longer a frequent raider, Lotro for me is all about the immersion and adventure (and the cosmetics, duh). I just hope that between the process of relearning a new trait tree system and dealing with underwhelming dps on landscape, I will still be able to enjoy the new scenery and quests.

Well Orion's minstrel is definitely still there.

We still have Ballads, Anthems and Codas, with the 3 stances, we still have the same heals and Damaging skills. We can still interupt in any stance and remove corruptions in any stance. What we have lost is the 4Y/3B style of gameplay, the "True" healing build is closest to a 5B+ build, but plays sufficiently similar to a 4B/3Y build to feel similar. You lost CoV but gained CotSA which is no longer stance gated.

Yellow line now plays more around the concept of stacking the same Anthem multiple times, it has gained more buffs but the healing gap between yellow and blue builds has opened.

Yes CtG and SoA are yellow line traited. Rally! is now a general skill however.

The Stances are slowly progressing towards being right, there are still bugs but they are getting there. The name change is still a bit weird but the icons are now familiar (with a new one for healing stance).

DPS has been improved in 5.1 (which went up yesterday, so won't comment on by how much).

Also legacy elimination, it a bit misleading, some no longer made sense, others were rolled into the skills by default and some became traits. We aren't down any legacies they have just been changed, Healing threat is now induction time for example.

Also I think a lot of feedback has been implemented, off the top of my head:

• SoS brought back.
• CotSA a general skill.
• Rally! a general skill.
• Changes to CtG.
• Call of Orome more accessable.
• Some cooldowns reduces.
• Removal of ground targeting mechanics.
• Increase in number of anthems you can have up when traited yellow.
• Consolidation of some yellow traits, and introduction of more with buffing utility.
• reintroduction of a ranged corruption.
• Return of the PC stun.
• Upping of morale from enduring morale.
• Stance inductions greatly reduced.

Basically, Blue line is very powerful healing wise, the only capability I think we lost is CtG/SoA, which are know more potent with better buffs and shorter cooldowns but tied to yellow line. (well SOA still needs work, but I anticipate it is coming). Boring is subjective, but I don't really see much difference with how a 4B+ minstrel currently plays

Yellow line I really like (although that is not a universal opinion), I think it has enough healing to be viable in most content, while being able to generate was I view as a good amount of utility.

Red line plays very similarly, there are no HoTs meaning you are more squishy, but nothing like pre-ROI WS levels of squishy.

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Originally Posted by 00CloughRN

Well Orion's minstrel is definitely still there.

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Lol you can't say Orion's minstrel is definitely there and then say that the main healing playstyle for many minstrels which came from those changes has been removed. Please. I'm sure the yellow line is great for you personally, you do run some interesting ideas for builds. Hopefully you'll be around to guide people through them so they can regain some measure of engagement with healing via the hybrid options which are now available.

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Originally Posted by Atheling

Lol you can't say Orion's minstrel is definitely there and then say that the main healing playstyle for many minstrels which came from those changes has been removed. Please. I'm sure the yellow line is great for you personally, you do run some interesting ideas for builds. Hopefully you'll be around to guide people through them so they can regain some measure of engagement with healing via the hybrid options which are now available.

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What I mean by "still there" is that the mechanics underpinning the class are the same, and the trait trees correspond to roughly the same areas. The problem is that the 4Y/3B playstyle was probably one of the most hybrid playstyles in the whole game. What I see is Orions minstrel put into a trait tree system. A system which currently serves that 4Y/3B playstyle poorly. I think in 10-20 levels time (or if they remove the 2pt restriction) when you can hit the yellow cap and get relatively deep into the blue you will see the playstyle reemerge. The playstyle by and large still exists (hitting the yellow 3 anthem capstone, then spending in blue), but it has just become hugely less effective. (I do acknowledge it has not passed unscathed - your down from 5 to 3 anthems)

Compare that to the gutting and overhaul of the core mechanics that happened with RoI, and I think these changes are well within the Orion paradigm.

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Originally Posted by 00CloughRN

What I mean by "still there" is that the mechanics underpinning the class are the same, and the trait trees correspond to roughly the same areas. The problem is that the 4Y/3B playstyle was probably one of the most hybrid playstyles in the whole game. What I see is Orions minstrel put into a trait tree system. A system which currently serves that 4Y/3B playstyle poorly. I think in 10-20 levels time (or if they remove the 2pt restriction) when you can hit the yellow cap and get relatively deep into the blue you will see the playstyle reemerge. The playstyle by and large still exists (hitting the yellow 3 anthem capstone, then spending in blue), but it has just become hugely less effective. (I do acknowledge it has not passed unscathed - your down from 5 to 3 anthems)

Compare that to the gutting and overhaul of the core mechanics that happened with RoI, and I think these changes are well within the Orion paradigm.

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edit.

Sorry initial response was to snark at you. Not the right thing to do. Apologies if that initial post, which was meant to lightheartedly call to mind something beyond the bricks and look at the structure built from them, offended. Can understand what you're saying. I do not disagree with anything really substantial til that last crucial clause in the last sentence. Here's the main driver for minstrel changes in RoI:

"will allow for the Minstrel to feel more active and viable during play".

For me, as things stand, I don't think what we have matches that idea if we assume challenging content will need to be healed. Ifs, I know. I do not think how trait trees have been implemented here would really support that without the addition of a second healing role to replace what is now yellow. So for me the fundamental was that. I give it two expansions before we're back to where we are roughly now btw. Which is something else which makes me a little cross about forcing a change of playstyle if the 'if' of challenging content occurs.

Anyways, apologies again if that initial post came across wrongly to you. And I do hope you will put some of your ideas for hybrid builds down. I think many would find them useful, not least myself because I am not partaking in the last round of beta.

I was just on Bullroarer and Rally is not a general skill. I only have it in blue line, same with the other minstrel on line. And my cooldown on TS is still 45 seconds which in my mind is very OP. Perhaps these changes are intended for another time, but those are still the same as they have been.

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Originally Posted by Atheling

edit.

Sorry initial response was to snark at you. Not the right thing to do. Apologies if that initial post, which was meant to lightheartedly call to mind something beyond the bricks and look at the structure built from them, offended. Can understand what you're saying. I do not disagree with anything really substantial til that last crucial clause in the last sentence. Here's the main driver for minstrel changes in RoI:

"will allow for the Minstrel to feel more active and viable during play".

For me, as things stand, I don't think what we have matches that idea if we assume challenging content will need to be healed. Ifs, I know. I do not think how trait trees have been implemented here would really support that without the addition of a second healing role to replace what is now yellow. So for me the fundamental was that. I give it two expansions before we're back to where we are roughly now btw. Which is something else which makes me a little cross about forcing a change of playstyle if the 'if' of challenging content occurs.

Anyways, apologies again if that initial post came across wrongly to you. And I do hope you will put some of your ideas for hybrid builds down. I think many would find them useful, not least myself because I am not partaking in the last round of beta.

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I understand what you are saying, but I stand by what I said, and why I said it.

Anyway here are some numbers. All single target healing myself no fellows

In beta,
Specced blue, I can reach 2400hps
Specced yellow I can reach 1500hps (by using 3aotta)
Specced yellow keeping up AoW, AoP and AoC I hit 700hps.

On live,
I hit 1200hps treated 4b/3y keeping up one anthem
I hit 900hps treated 4y/3b keeping AoW, AoP, AotTA, AotFP.

As you can see I feel that the yellow specced mini is actually more viable as a healer than the live one. The big difference is that three blue line is pretty insane boosts.

Also as a side note with 5.1 my dps has gone from 900 on live to 2200 piety massive boost in my books.

That dps increase is just plain wrong really, isn't it? Think it's across the board though judging from sounds elsewhere. Nerfbats at the ready for 12.1 I guess. I hope...

Yeah, you're right about an overall upgrade to healing live vs beta. Made similar point way back on beta1. Great to have latest numbers though, thank you. I spent a long time trying to convince myself that the blue line numbers weren't in error (BC's power in particular which really starts hammering up hps output). But what level of healing are we being balanced towards? We've clearly got no idea yet. In relative terms, as we both know, yellow line healing is falling behind - fairly significantly so by your numbers. My personal feeling is that neither dps nor heals are in any way yet at their final numbers but that relative balance betwen blue and yellow will be maintained. Will blue line be the expectation or yellow? And if yellow, what function is that role actually playing? Cos that would mean content is being balanced on 'support' role healing. Scary thought to me because of what then follows from that.

Hope that made sense. Good luck with feedback.

Some updated feedback so we minis don't all feel as sad as we did 4 days ago.
5.1 brought some crucial basic changes:

• Stance icons are now different from each other and the heals stance has a blue icon Hooray!
• Rally is general- just buggy-in my experience, you may have to spec several times to get it to show-see class summary thread for more.
• DPS has increased and may make us viable as secondary dps in BBs or groups-i'll need to check-and yes, i expect a dps nerf soon. Dps on landscape is great now-we are actually a cannon, albeit a fragile glass one. I'm ok with this. And cross speccing helps when you get the spare points.
• Skirm dps is insane -champion level-and is likely a bug or my sage has been to a really good martial arts camp while I've been in beta!
• Still not happy with yellow low point skills but it is viable as a line now but seems more like traiting red/blue live than traiting yellow live. I added red for the PC benefit, blue for heal, and forgot capstone for my most effective build in 4.1. I may change that now and try all yellow...
• Power does seem an issue for classes (including mini in dps in my short experience) so changing the skills i use will take some practice (i NEVER have power issues live. this is new to me.) This expalins some of the new skills and buffs.

Other comments

The new stats on jewellery provide crits, will, fate, vit-so these are your core stats. (At least I would hope so.) So we aren't likely to be in same boat as poor wardens were for 18 months and 3 stat changes. :)

Blue heals requires 3-4 spam heals if you have legs for TS cooldown RTS/BC and CoS. I'm using 85 healing, second agers and i probly won't need to change them at 95 if these figures stand.

DPS is not OP in instances or BB due to lack of self heals but is definitely more than effective on landscape. Suspect rebalancing across classes will happen soon.

Overall we aren't nearly as much fun as live, group healing will be idiot proof, but we are at least playable as more than spam healer, solo and in groups after 5.1.

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Originally Posted by 00CloughRN

I understand what you are saying, but I stand by what I said, and why I said it.

Anyway here are some numbers. All single target healing myself no fellows

In beta,
Specced blue, I can reach 2400hps
Specced yellow I can reach 1500hps (by using 3aotta)
Specced yellow keeping up AoW, AoP and AoC I hit 700hps.

On live,
I hit 1200hps treated 4b/3y keeping up one anthem
I hit 900hps treated 4y/3b keeping AoW, AoP, AotTA, AotFP.

As you can see I feel that the yellow specced mini is actually more viable as a healer than the live one. The big difference is that three blue line is pretty insane boosts.

Also as a side note with 5.1 my dps has gone from 900 on live to 2200 piety massive boost in my books.

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Also just to say the increase is not quite that large. I think the AOE radius has increased on a few skills so what was ST on live was AOE in beta

To the people who is working on the Minstrel class:

When it comes to DPS, please remember that what some will consider overpowered, might not be quite that high for some of us. On live I see people brag about how much damage they do, while I'm the same level or higher and still have half of that for some reason. Just keep in mind that while some people will have the best gear from raids and such to boost their power, others will have to make due with gear gotten from landscape quests. Though I'm sure you'll be thinking of that already, I just wanted to make sure because the Minstrel class is very dear to me, and I enjoy playing red-traited and solo :)

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Originally Posted by Silmelin

To the people who is working on the Minstrel class:

When it comes to DPS, please remember that what some will consider overpowered, might not be quite that high for some of us. On live I see people brag about how much damage they do, while I'm the same level or higher and still have half of that for some reason. Just keep in mind that while some people will have the best gear from raids and such to boost their power, others will have to make due with gear gotten from landscape quests. Though I'm sure you'll be thinking of that already, I just wanted to make sure because the Minstrel class is very dear to me, and I enjoy playing red-traited and solo :)

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This concern has been expressed by beta testers- we understand :)

Just to reassure you-i've been testing on two minis. Neither are top geared. One is very average, new to 85, and a soloer, one was pretty speccy 10 months ago but is now below average for a raider, stats wise. I don't run all red very often but did test that on both of them. DPS was woeful it has improved in 5.1 . The problem beta testers are having is determining the exact parses. We are geting wild variation in skirmishes, landscape and big battles and on dummies. But we agree it's improved and OK at all levels on landscape. One tester levelled a minstrel through moria just to check before 5.1 and it was do-able, then. (It had been extremely difficult in the betas before that. ) It will be easier now. But different.

Here are details of my minis if you would like to see what my feedback has been based on..

I don't PVP so the bonuses on the pvp sets don't apply to either mini.

One is in hytbold watcher and song protector gear with 2 second agers -one for dps and one for heals but DPS sword is by far from maxxed. No dps /buff book. a few nice teal drops. but no gold items or X*fire jewellery. Virtues on Peralda are maxed. So not really an OP build but well balanced enough to raid like this if you are used to your class and don't expect to main heal some specific raids Tier2CM

She cuts through landscape mobs live and can mange groups of adds-up to 4 mobs on level most of the time, by being strategic and using all skills. When I stuff up or get interrupts-she dies very quickly. She is not a great dps minstrel-she (I) can't kite and don't pvp. But in beta she's been useless. I had just got her the normal erebor dps set to see if helped her woeful dps when the 5.1 changes happened. I have tested with her in Beta up to and including 5.1. She has improved on the dummy tests noticably since 5.1.

The other, Yvandriel, turned 85 last week-haven't tested with her since 4.1 but our feedback was based on her from 75-84. She was wearing exclusively crafted (eastnmet crafted level 80 is nice for the vitality and morale-will is easier to find in drops) a nice teal shield often available on AH and quest gear cloak. She can manage to solo most landscape content, picking mobs off, one at a time, 1 or 2 levels over her level, if she is careful. Live, she can heal most current 6 mans and small fellowships as a harmony healer, doing some damage on adds and rounding up the grims in sambrog, but would never be any use as true dps. She tried hard in Bells of Dale but the cappy still did better! But she did heal ok in tier2C and stay alive and keep everyone up. She'll improve with a dps sword and book and some better gear but as she's great as a healer, and can mange wildermore landscape pretty easily, I haven't bothered mini-maxing: her virtues are from maxed and not all her deeds are done. So she is a pretty average mini to test dps on.

She was autolevelled by instance finder for the HD Battles geared like this. She was useless. She was also much squishier on the same landscape mobs and her dps was noticeably lower, in all builds.

This was a common experience and caused a lot of consternation and distress to minstrels.

The 5.1 changes , although not tested with her (last copy failed) have addressed some fundamentals. In her dps spec and stance some real damage is now probable.

I hope this reassures you that although many of the testers have more intense play styles and may refer to harder content in their feedback, we are not only testing that stuff. Many of us play like you do, wearing whatever works. :)

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Originally Posted by Silmelin

To the people who is working on the Minstrel class:

When it comes to DPS, please remember that what some will consider overpowered, might not be quite that high for some of us. On live I see people brag about how much damage they do, while I'm the same level or higher and still have half of that for some reason. Just keep in mind that while some people will have the best gear from raids and such to boost their power, others will have to make due with gear gotten from landscape quests. Though I'm sure you'll be thinking of that already, I just wanted to make sure because the Minstrel class is very dear to me, and I enjoy playing red-traited and solo :)

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Me too! I love my Warrior-Skald!

I always played a dedicated healer in previous MMOs. I don't want to do that anymore. And for some reason, maybe because of the mobility of the class, I enjoy DPS mini for soloing above all other classes. I really don't want this option taken away from us.

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Originally Posted by Calta

This concern has been expressed by beta testers- we understand :)

Just to reassure you-i've been testing on two minis. Neither are top geared. One is very average, new to 85, and a soloer, one was pretty speccy 10 months ago but is now below average for a raider, stats wise. I don't run all red very often but did test that on both of them. DPS was woeful it has improved in 5.1 . The problem beta testers are having is determining the exact parses. We are geting wild variation in skirmishes, landscape and big battles and on dummies. But we agree it's improved and OK at all levels on landscape. One tester levelled a minstrel through moria just to check before 5.1 and it was do-able, then. (It had been extremely difficult in the betas before that. ) It will be easier now. But different.

Here are details of my minis if you would like to see what my feedback has been based on..

I don't PVP so the bonuses on the pvp sets don't apply to either mini.

One is in hytbold watcher and song protector gear with 2 second agers -one for dps and one for heals but DPS sword is by far from maxxed. No dps /buff book. a few nice teal drops. but no gold items or X*fire jewellery. Virtues on Peralda are maxed. So not really an OP build but well balanced enough to raid like this if you are used to your class and don't expect to main heal some specific raids Tier2CM

She cuts through landscape mobs live and can mange groups of adds-up to 4 mobs on level most of the time, by being strategic and using all skills. When I stuff up or get interrupts-she dies very quickly. She is not a great dps minstrel-she (I) can't kite and don't pvp. But in beta she's been useless. I had just got her the normal erebor dps set to see if helped her woeful dps when the 5.1 changes happened. I have tested with her in Beta up to and including 5.1. She has improved on the dummy tests noticably since 5.1.

The other, Yvandriel, turned 85 last week-haven't tested with her since 4.1 but our feedback was based on her from 75-84. She was wearing exclusively crafted (eastnmet crafted level 80 is nice for the vitality and morale-will is easier to find in drops) a nice teal shield often available on AH and quest gear cloak. She can manage to solo most landscape content, picking mobs off, one at a time, 1 or 2 levels over her level, if she is careful. Live, she can heal most current 6 mans and small fellowships as a harmony healer, doing some damage on adds and rounding up the grims in sambrog, but would never be any use as true dps. She tried hard in Bells of Dale but the cappy still did better! But she did heal ok in tier2C and stay alive and keep everyone up. She'll improve with a dps sword and book and some better gear but as she's great as a healer, and can mange wildermore landscape pretty easily, I haven't bothered mini-maxing: her virtues are from maxed and not all her deeds are done. So she is a pretty average mini to test dps on.

She was autolevelled by instance finder for the HD Battles geared like this. She was useless. She was also much squishier on the same landscape mobs and her dps was noticeably lower, in all builds.

This was a common experience and caused a lot of consternation and distress to minstrels.

The 5.1 changes , although not tested with her (last copy failed) have addressed some fundamentals. In her dps spec and stance some real damage is now probable.

I hope this reassures you that although many of the testers have more intense play styles and may refer to harder content in their feedback, we are not only testing that stuff. Many of us play like you do, wearing whatever works. :)

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Thank you :) It's reassuring to hear that people like me with less than stellar gear is remembered too!
I only use things I get as quest rewards and LI's dropped by random mobs, so my LI is just one of those you can buy on the AH for max 90s and I have nothing "added" to it because I have no idea how it works even after reading several guides, and when I ask for advice, people say to not bother because I will outlevel it right away and so far that's been kind of true XD

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Originally Posted by Caernach

Me too! I love my Warrior-Skald!

I always played a dedicated healer in previous MMOs. I don't want to do that anymore. And for some reason, maybe because of the mobility of the class, I enjoy DPS mini for soloing above all other classes. I really don't want this option taken away from us.

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I have always chosen classes that are healers but can be played solo. I love soloing and want to do that most of the time, but sometimes it's fun to heal in a fellowship, so I like playing a class that can switch :)

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Originally Posted by Beaniemooch

I was just on Bullroarer and Rally is not a general skill. I only have it in blue line, same with the other minstrel on line. And my cooldown on TS is still 45 seconds which in my mind is very OP. Perhaps these changes are intended for another time, but those are still the same as they have been.

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This is my experience also. I tried swaping lines, with skill window open also, when moving from blue to yellow or red, the rally disappears from skill list and from quickslot. Maybe it was a bug for 00CloughRN , or has it been confirmed, Rally will be available in all traits? I also, tried swapping all stances, in all three lines, to explore if it were only available in certain stances, but no, it was gone as soon as I left Watcher traits.

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Originally Posted by Alotlost

This is my experience also. I tried swaping lines, with skill window open also, when moving from blue to yellow or red, the rally disappears from skill list and from quickslot. Maybe it was a bug for 00CloughRN , or has it been confirmed, Rally will be available in all traits? I also, tried swapping all stances, in all three lines, to explore if it were only available in certain stances, but no, it was gone as soon as I left Watcher traits.

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Yeah I think it was a bug/change for build 5 that was removed for 5.1.

I did a small amount of Beta. The Minstrel to me now just isn't fun for some reason. I don't know. The landscape DPS is not that great and the DPS is subpar in a group setting. Even after 5.1 I still take quite a bit of damage from at level mobs if I get more than two. I also don't enjoy the fact that there just are not that many skills to choose from. Healing I guess is okay, but seems kind of boring.

I really think the Minstrel would benefit from some new more innovative skills. Not sure what those are but the major problem I see is the Minstrel class, in both DPS and healing, used the skills in the yellow tree such as the various anthems and durations and Blue line i definitely used CtG. having a lot of those skills, (inspire fellows etc) now taken away and unable to be used unless you trait that line makes the class just not as interesting. I tried a hybrid red/yellow build. The cost for cross speccing though is so steep you end up having to spend points on useless skills to get the ones you really want. I don't need inspire fellows if I'm dps'ing.

The Minstrel was my main. Fortunately I have a couple of alts I can play which I will likely do as they seem to have benefitted okay from the class changes and that's fine I will have fun with those. I likely will play the minstrel sparingly until it's fixed or changed.

I agree with the post up the page that, like Wardens in ROI, we may need a few months before they fix it. The Minstrel right now to me is less than optimal. Having said that I only played a small amount of Beta (Big Battles and quested in the first few areas) so maybe my experience wasn't as complete as others.

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Originally Posted by Lyzau

It seems there's always one class that has to bite the bullet upon release of a new expansion. I remember upon release of RoI in 2011, Wardens had become completely broken. They were unplayable as tanks and useless as dps, so Wardens had to wait for several months before their issues could be fixed and had to be put on hold. I know more classes have gone through similar phases (including Minstrel in the Moria days), so I guess it's our turn again this time around.

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I'm afraid that while the warden isn't doing quite so badly as (s)he was after RoI release, I can guarantee you that we are currently far from functional, especially when compared to tanking guardians.. our melee dps role is doing better now (comparable to how it was during RoR), but I doubt you'll be seeing many effective warden tanks for a while, and until at least 12.1 we'll definitely be weaker than we were after RoR release (unless they haven't adjusted the % curves, but in that case everything will become even easier than it already was)... Hurray for callous deadlines.

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Originally Posted by Lyzau

It seems there's always one class that has to bite the bullet upon release of a new expansion. I remember upon release of RoI in 2011, Wardens had become completely broken. They were unplayable as tanks and useless as dps, so Wardens had to wait for several months before their issues could be fixed and had to be put on hold. I know more classes have gone through similar phases (including Minstrel in the Moria days), so I guess it's our turn again this time around.

I trust that eventually these problems will be fixed and rebalanced. In the meantime we will just have to make do with what we get and continue to provide feedback on the forums.

Since I am no longer a frequent raider, Lotro for me is all about the immersion and adventure (and the cosmetics, duh). I just hope that between the process of relearning a new trait tree system and dealing with underwhelming dps on landscape, I will still be able to enjoy the new scenery and quests.

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you'd think they've learned by now... and it's not like they didn't got a heads up :P

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Originally Posted by Atheling

That dps increase is just plain wrong really, isn't it? Think it's across the board though judging from sounds elsewhere. Nerfbats at the ready for 12.1 I guess. I hope...

Yeah, you're right about an overall upgrade to healing live vs beta. Made similar point way back on beta1. Great to have latest numbers though, thank you. I spent a long time trying to convince myself that the blue line numbers weren't in error (BC's power in particular which really starts hammering up hps output). But what level of healing are we being balanced towards? We've clearly got no idea yet. In relative terms, as we both know, yellow line healing is falling behind - fairly significantly so by your numbers. My personal feeling is that neither dps nor heals are in any way yet at their final numbers but that relative balance betwen blue and yellow will be maintained. Will blue line be the expectation or yellow? And if yellow, what function is that role actually playing? Cos that would mean content is being balanced on 'support' role healing. Scary thought to me because of what then follows from that.

Hope that made sense. Good luck with feedback.

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DPS has been modified across all classes to establish parity and ensure viability. As for healing, the blue line is meant to be the primary healing line with Resonance as its stance, and the Yellow line is more for indirect support via buffs with some healing.

Edit: In general, we've already put in a lot of fixes for the next update. Please keep leaving your feedback and filing bugs as you encounter them! Your contributions were valuable during our beta cycles and will continue to be as we refine things.

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Originally Posted by Deviled_Egg

DPS has been modified across all classes to establish parity and ensure viability. As for healing, the blue line is meant to be the primary healing line with Resonance as its stance, and the Yellow line is more for indirect support via buffs with some healing.

Edit: In general, we've already put in a lot of fixes for the next update. Please keep leaving your feedback and filing bugs as you encounter them! Your contributions were valuable during our beta cycles and will continue to be as we refine things.

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There was so much discussion in the beta minstrel feedback thread that was even acknowledged by a dev... Honestly you'd be better off just saying in the grand scheme of things you reaiise minstrels got a bit neglected but want to make amends for this in the upcoming patch,

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Originally Posted by Deviled_Egg

DPS has been modified across all classes to establish parity and ensure viability. As for healing, the blue line is meant to be the primary healing line with Resonance as its stance, and the Yellow line is more for indirect support via buffs with some healing.

Edit: In general, we've already put in a lot of fixes for the next update. Please keep leaving your feedback and filing bugs as you encounter them! Your contributions were valuable during our beta cycles and will continue to be as we refine things.

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Hi, I was wondering if our last pages of Minstrel feedback thread on beta have been read/can be read still by the devs? There were few nice summary attempts at what minstrels would like changed/fixed shortly before beta forum was hidden/deleted. Since I made one too and i don't know if they were acknowledged, not sure if i should just repeat feedback from my last post, since currently almost nothing changed vs last beta and idk what changes 12.1 brings for mini.

Is there any chance that animation length of few skills (CotSA, Chord) will be reviewed again? I know it's probably not frequent complaint among lots of changes and tweaks still needed for mini but since after 12.1 you probably won't be examining class skill animations for a very long time, would be great to take a look at it like champs got it with Strike skills. These 2 skills i really liked to use on live but was always annoyed at how long it takes to use next skill after use of either CotSA or Chord.

Btw (since i'm one of the ppl quoted), these quotes in the OP are bit outdated since minis got nice dps boost and few other fixes last beta build. Thanks to it, it's in much better shape that it was for most of the testing. I'm happy that minis now have viable group role in all 3 lines, just still need some tweaks. :)

Just hope we get to see anthem of the free peoples again, I am really missing it when dpsing. The only healing skill to trust on when having mobs on us is chord of salvation atm and it got its hot removed making it even worse to pre-HD. I am just praying for a crit when i need the heals as I see no real other options, I have no time for heals with inductions when kiting. Adding the anthem back will give us a nice hot after using coda which will really increase our survivability