That Moment ...

I don't want to spoil it for anyone, but I'd just like to say that I thought that MOMENT with the Rangers was incredibly touching and felt just right.

It really felt as though everything I had done with my character and the Ranger friends he had helped and made along the way had been leading up to this point. It was a goose bump moment and for the first time in a very long while I actually felt like I was really in Middle-earth. I actually felt connected to the game again.

Just want to say to the devs well done : )

It was a nice moment, but I have a concern that involves...SPOILERS AHEAD. You have been warned.

...



...



...



...



The timing seems off. If I understood correctly, we meet Halbarad & Co. on our way into Isengard, yet in the book, Aragorn & Co. met them on their way back FROM Isengard TO Helm's Deep.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Othniel

It was a nice moment, but I have a concern that involves...SPOILERS AHEAD. You have been warned.

---

*looks around for +MoL* Any chance you can shed some light on this?

I wrote a little about this on the other test server, so I've snagged my thoughts from there.

Spoilers here for Book 14! Don't read on unless you want to see spoilers!

...

...

...


Concerning the change in the timing: it's a bigger change than we generally make, it's true, but after a good deal of consideration I think it makes a certain amount of videogame sense:

+ It makes the search for Lothrandir easier to motivate
+ Since this Volume was very much the story of the Grey Company, it's good to involve them in the closing chapters beyond having them show up only in an Epilogue or during the last chapter and being done with them
+ There isn't a great deal that is changed by having them show up early: the information they bring probably doesn't change Gandalf's upcoming decision, and since in our version they share an aim with Aragorn and co. (involving the resolution of Saruman's threat), it makes sense that they would come along.
+ It lets me do one of the Inside Baseball-type chapter titles that give me the giggles: 'Allies Unexpected' could refer to the Ents showing up after the Battle of the Hornburg... or it could refer to the Grey Company, who fans of the book *really* don't expect to see this early. :D



So it *is* a change, but I think it's a justifiable one for our purposes.

MoL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

+ It lets me do one of the Inside Baseball-type chapter titles that give me the giggles: 'Allies Unexpected' could refer to the Ents showing up after the Battle of the Hornburg... or it could refer to the Grey Company, who fans of the book *really* don't expect to see this early. :D

---

Well, you surely fooled me there! :D I thought "Allies Unexpected" meant ents or huorns, but I understood the real meaning of that title after I met the rangers: It meant both ents AND rangers :) So, nicely done there!

As for "that moment" OP wrote... It surely was good one, but the most touching to me was...


SPOILERS AHEAD (although I think if someone is reading this far, they have done Book 14 already or ignores all warnings :) )





The moment when Gun Ain brought us "Lothrandir". I couldn't believe it, he went through everything and then ended up like that! I never guessed that sorry creature was actually not Lothrandir at all! I loved how you fooled me there as well!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gilean-EU

Well, you surely fooled me there! :D I thought "Allies Unexpected" meant ents or huorns, but I understood the real meaning of that title after I met the rangers: It meant both ents AND rangers :) So, nicely done there!

As for "that moment" OP wrote... It surely was good one, but the most touching to me was...


SPOILERS AHEAD (although I think if someone is reading this far, they have done Book 14 already or ignores all warnings :) )





The moment when Gun Ain brought us "Lothrandir". I couldn't believe it, he went through everything and then ended up like that! I never guessed that sorry creature was actually not Lothrandir at all! I loved how you fooled me there as well!

---

Oh, yes. Can you say "eucatastrophe"? I knew you could.

And I had the opportunity to observe (since he wasn't wearing his hood)
that Lothrandir has a very prominent Roman nose.

And it's good to have closure on Mercy; she repented of her sins and
was absolved (the only person more appropriate than Halbarad to
absolve her would've been Aragorn); Tolkien would've approved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

I wrote a little about this on the other test server, so I've snagged my thoughts from there.

---

Thanks for stopping by to share your reasoning from 'over there'. That makes a lot of sense!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

I wrote a little about this on the other test server, so I've snagged my thoughts from there.

Spoilers here for Book 14! Don't read on unless you want to see spoilers!

...

...

...


Concerning the change in the timing: it's a bigger change than we generally make, it's true, but after a good deal of consideration I think it makes a certain amount of videogame sense:

+ It makes the search for Lothrandir easier to motivate
+ Since this Volume was very much the story of the Grey Company, it's good to involve them in the closing chapters beyond having them show up only in an Epilogue or during the last chapter and being done with them
+ There isn't a great deal that is changed by having them show up early: the information they bring probably doesn't change Gandalf's upcoming decision, and since in our version they share an aim with Aragorn and co. (involving the resolution of Saruman's threat), it makes sense that they would come along.
+ It lets me do one of the Inside Baseball-type chapter titles that give me the giggles: 'Allies Unexpected' could refer to the Ents showing up after the Battle of the Hornburg... or it could refer to the Grey Company, who fans of the book *really* don't expect to see this early. :D



So it *is* a change, but I think it's a justifiable one for our purposes.

MoL

---

I was under the impression that most of the time, the universe was only expanded upon, not directly contradicted. Are there other areas where you've done this? It feels like a bigger departure than some obscure line of text. While understandable from a story point of view, I feel like it might have been more appropriate to change what you've already written rather than make it fit. Slippery slope? Maybe we're already started down that path?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ardineck

I was under the impression that most of the time, the universe was only expanded upon, not directly contradicted.

---

I only have control over the Epic Story, but I don't think you need to worry about too many direct contradictions over the course of it -- chances are quite good that I'm more of a stickler for LotR than 99% of the playerbase. I try to be a respectful caretaker of even the small things, which is why I like to explain when we do change things, like we're doing here. I don't believe that this changes the drama or the meaning of the Grey Company's arrival, and I'd argue that it enhances the story we're telling in a worthwhile way without harming the sanctity of that scene at the beginning of RotK.

The only major contradictions I can think of involve us contradicting things from material that comes outside of LotR, so for example if there's a published work that talks about palantiri coming in many different sizes (which there is), we can't use that to depict them coming in different sizes -- according to LotR they're fairly small and transportable, so you'll see that all of ours are as well.

I'm not worried that this could be a slippery slope. No one who would want to drastically change the lore of the story would even know that we changed this; this would never be held up as a reason to justify further changes. So I don't think you should worry either. :)

MoL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

I only have control over the Epic Story, but I don't think you need to worry about too many direct contradictions over the course of it -- chances are quite good that I'm more of a stickler for LotR than 99% of the playerbase. I try to be a respectful caretaker of even the small things, which is why I like to explain when we do change things, like we're doing here. I don't believe that this changes the drama or the meaning of the Grey Company's arrival, and I'd argue that it enhances the story we're telling in a worthwhile way without harming the sanctity of that scene at the beginning of RotK.

The only major contradictions I can think of involve us contradicting things from material that comes outside of LotR, so for example if there's a published work that talks about palantiri coming in many different sizes (which there is), we can't use that to depict them coming in different sizes -- according to LotR they're fairly small and transportable, so you'll see that all of ours are as well.

I'm not worried that this could be a slippery slope. No one who would want to drastically change the lore of the story would even know that we changed this; this would never be held up as a reason to justify further changes. So I don't think you should worry either. :)

MoL

---

I seem to recall a contradiction involving Grimbold and the Second Battle of the Fords of Isen. In LOTR, he commanded his group of soldiers to fight against Suaruman's forces and broke a hole in their offensive and then made a retreat. In the game, his soldiers deserted him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

I only have control over the Epic Story, but I don't think you need to worry about too many direct contradictions over the course of it -- chances are quite good that I'm more of a stickler for LotR than 99% of the playerbase. I try to be a respectful caretaker of even the small things, which is why I like to explain when we do change things, like we're doing here. I don't believe that this changes the drama or the meaning of the Grey Company's arrival, and I'd argue that it enhances the story we're telling in a worthwhile way without harming the sanctity of that scene at the beginning of RotK.

The only major contradictions I can think of involve us contradicting things from material that comes outside of LotR, so for example if there's a published work that talks about palantiri coming in many different sizes (which there is), we can't use that to depict them coming in different sizes -- according to LotR they're fairly small and transportable, so you'll see that all of ours are as well.

I'm not worried that this could be a slippery slope. No one who would want to drastically change the lore of the story would even know that we changed this; this would never be held up as a reason to justify further changes. So I don't think you should worry either. :)

MoL

---

I don't mind the little tweaks, here and there. Its not like you went all Peter Jackson on the story! :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lenton

I seem to recall a contradiction involving Grimbold and the Second Battle of the Fords of Isen. In LOTR, he commanded his group of soldiers to fight against Suaruman's forces and broke a hole in their offensive and then made a retreat. In the game, his soldiers deserted him.

---

That's because Grimbold knew the elves were coming to save the day ... :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ardineck

I was under the impression that most of the time, the universe was only expanded upon, not directly contradicted. Are there other areas where you've done this? It feels like a bigger departure than some obscure line of text. While understandable from a story point of view, I feel like it might have been more appropriate to change what you've already written rather than make it fit. Slippery slope? Maybe we're already started down that path?

---

It was only a minor deviation and it doesn't have any real impact on the overall story, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

It could have been much worse, you could have heard someone yelling out "The Elves are here!".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

I only have control over the Epic Story, but I don't think you need to worry about too many direct contradictions over the course of it -- chances are quite good that I'm more of a stickler for LotR than 99% of the playerbase. I try to be a respectful caretaker of even the small things, which is why I like to explain when we do change things, like we're doing here. I don't believe that this changes the drama or the meaning of the Grey Company's arrival, and I'd argue that it enhances the story we're telling in a worthwhile way without harming the sanctity of that scene at the beginning of RotK.

The only major contradictions I can think of involve us contradicting things from material that comes outside of LotR, so for example if there's a published work that talks about palantiri coming in many different sizes (which there is), we can't use that to depict them coming in different sizes -- according to LotR they're fairly small and transportable, so you'll see that all of ours are as well.

I'm not worried that this could be a slippery slope. No one who would want to drastically change the lore of the story would even know that we changed this; this would never be held up as a reason to justify further changes. So I don't think you should worry either. :)

MoL

---

I guess what bothers each person is different because this bothers me, since it could have been avoided with different story that was written by you (you as in Turbne, not you in particular, though you may have written it) and while other expansions on the text have bothered others more, I am more forgiving. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this one sticks out like a red flag to me. As for the palantiri, we don't see too many in this game or in the book, we only hear of them. It would seem easy to just avoid putting others in a cutscenes then, if you can't have what you want, which is what I mean with altering the story (even if it required going back and changing existing books we have been through). Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying it would be easy to do or write, but I think that's kind of the challenge signed up for when taking on this IP.

On the flip side, in watching The Walking Dead and referring to the source "text" there are so many deviations and conflations that it's almost like watching a totally different story set in the same world. In this case, LotRO has prided itself on adherence to even small references and then seems to have painted themselves in a corner to sell something (either already in the past or just recently) and throws the self-written rules out the window. Blessing from SZ or no (I mean, they've made it clear they will sign off on most anything with stuff like War in the North and the PJ changed stories) I feel let down. I may be in the minority, but it feels like (I'm not saying it is, but it feels to me like) taking the easy way out. If its stressful, I understand, but it's a sign to me. I believe you when of say you are more concerned with the lore than anyone else there, but that is a comparison, not necessarily a promise. Is this that big of a deal? I'll probably gets over it, but I will be much more vigilant from here on...

...if I don't leave in April for good anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ardineck

snip

---

I don't know why this particular deviation bothers you so much. There have been dozens of similar ones made over LOTRO's entire seven year history. On top of that, there are several pretty large deviations that while justifiable in terms of gameplay, are very blatantly counter to the lore.

I can understand being upset at lore-breaks, but the way you write it's as if this is a huge first revelation, when it really isn't at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ardineck

I guess what bothers each person is different because this bothers me, since it could have been avoided with different story that was written by you...

---

I can respect that. There are things that bother me that don't bother others, but we compromise in order to make a fun game that maintains the spirit of Middle-earth. And certainly a different story could have avoided this particular change: we might not have followed the Grey Company, for instance, and told an entirely different story for Volume III. Once the decision was made to tell their story and interweave it with the threat of Saruman, though, this change makes that dual storyline stronger, and it's been in the plan since almost the beginning. I think it's the right decision, but again, I understand that it *is* a change and wanted to explain our reasoning for it. :)

MoL

While we're on lore pedantry, just a reminder that the singular of Dùnedain is DùnADAN with two As... some of the dialogue appears to have forgotten that :)
Also, the voice actor in the shouts needs to know how to pronounce "Eorlingas" (if they stay, which I hope they don't - but quite like the idea proposed by Vexendynamus I think that you can buy specific localised voice sets).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

I can respect that. There are things that bother me that don't bother others, but we compromise in order to make a fun game that maintains the spirit of Middle-earth. And certainly a different story could have avoided this particular change: we might not have followed the Grey Company, for instance, and told an entirely different story for Volume III. Once the decision was made to tell their story and interweave it with the threat of Saruman, though, this change makes that dual storyline stronger, and it's been in the plan since almost the beginning. I think it's the right decision, but again, I understand that it *is* a change and wanted to explain our reasoning for it. :)

MoL

---

...and I can respect the choices made, especially when addressed in a thoughtful and patient manner. I really was enjoying the story. I think all of the hard work up to that point was spectacular and I also respect that it's extremely difficult when not only working with "lore" and the written word, but other existing "canon" that has to be approved and then told in an entertaining way.

I don't envy the work you have to do to keep all the plates spinning and considering it may well be a rare departure, I think it's only fair to suspend judgement. Thanks for your time responding!