Breaking of Isengard epic line

Finally after being on and off for past few months i got to finish quests in Fangorn's Entwood and the epic quests. (not counting the quietening)

I have to say I am disappointed with the epic quest session play. Seriously? Just walk few metres, kill 6 orcs (which is fun but still) , and move another few metres, and 6 orcs and that is it?

I would like to see the attack on Isengard itself, Session play of Ents fighting orcs and trolls, destroying bridges and wooden structures. Breaking down a wall and go up to the dam defend other nets as they break the dam and watch the flooding of Isengard. That would be a fitting end.


But instead I feel Turbine is in hurry to Mordor and I fear it. Take it easy, do it just, and take more time polishing and fulfilling the storyline. Just because the scene isn't in the book doesn't mean it is in LOTRO, as I loved the way Turbine fleshed out several stories in the epic lines from hints and tidbids from the books. (Earnur's ghost, Saruman's ring, so on) and you couldn't do that with Ent's Siege of Isengard?

Imagine the last Epic quest of LOTRO to be sneaking 5 steps, kill one orc, sneak another 5 steps, kill second orc, look for sam and frodo's footprints. Suddenly the ground shakes and you look up, then CUT, see loading screen picture of the eagles flying out of Mount Doom volcanic eruption, and next moment you are in Minas Tirith waking up with Gandalf hovering over you, smiling....

A significant number of the players despise Session Play. They want to play their character not an Ent, Ranger, Dwarf Champion... These players complained bitterly about being forced to do instances like 'We can not get Out" as part of Volume 2 in Moria - especially if they do not play a Champion - do not want to play a Champion - hate melee classes.

When Turbine got to Volume 3, Book 10 in Wildermore Turbine made the Session plays optional going forward. They are not a part of the Epic Line because you can skip them. Not surprisingly the ones of Book 14 are not as big and fancy as 'We can not get out'.

I doubt Turbine will ever release the usage information. I would really like to know what percentage of the players that did Volume 3, Book 10 for Wildermore also did the 7 Session Play instances. I suspect there are very few people like me that have done all seven Session Play instances and Volume 3, Book 10 the same number of times. I also wonder how many people did Volume 3, Book 10 at least once and skipped all the Session Play instances.

I would not be surprised if player utilization is way down from the old days when you had to do a Session Play instance like 'We can not get out' to get your Class trait point and complete Volume 2. The consequence of utilization is way down - less effort will be spend on Session Play instances.

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Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

A significant number of the players despise Session Play...

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Can't argue with that, especially when you get like three or *gasp* four skills to choose from.

However, I think the OP may be referencing the fact that the Ent attack on Isengard session, which started so well, ended with a lame fade to black when it really was just getting going. I'd rather just have a cut-scene and be done with it, if that's the way iconic moments in the Books are going to be treated.

I don't think the made-up guff about the Keystone Cops of the North carries the same weight.

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Originally Posted by duvelmoortgat

I would like to see the attack on Isengard itself, Session play of Ents fighting orcs and trolls, destroying bridges and wooden structures. Breaking down a wall and go up to the dam defend other nets as they break the dam and watch the flooding of Isengard. That would be a fitting end.

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All of which is in the movie, but not in the book, which means we can't portray it that way. In the book there is no dam -- the Ents work for quite awhile to divert the river, which is probably a more realistic approach but doesn't lend itself to visually showing in-game as well.

I would have loved to show the water dramatically flooding the Ring of Isengard, but we decided pretty early on that it was not something we could handle to our satisfaction, so instead we spent our major art-bucks on the destruction of the walls, which I think turned out pretty well.

MoL

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

All of which is in the movie, but not in the book, which means we can't portray it that way. In the book there is no dam -- the Ents work for quite awhile to divert the river, which is probably a more realistic approach but doesn't lend itself to visually showing in-game as well.

I would have loved to show the water dramatically flooding the Ring of Isengard, but we decided pretty early on that it was not something we could handle to our satisfaction, so instead we spent our major art-bucks on the destruction of the walls, which I think turned out pretty well.

MoL

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The destruction of the wall and flood Isengard were impressive. As always huge kudos to the art folks. They didn't disappoint. :)

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Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

A significant number of the players despise Session Play. They want to play their character not an Ent, Ranger, Dwarf Champion... These players complained bitterly about being forced to do instances like 'We can not get Out" as part of Volume 2 in Moria - especially if they do not play a Champion - do not want to play a Champion - hate melee classes.

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I resemble that remark. My level 63 character was stuck in Moria
for months because WCGO was broken. When it was fixed (first
in BR, and then in live) he was able to do it, but it was still a pain
in the tail because I had to run right up to the Orc in order
to hit him. I had to hotkey an alias for /follow -- which I have on
all my live characters anyway, but I had to do it for Ori before I
clicked on that first NPC ring, because there was no chance to
do it afterwards.

Maybe I should list the necessary commands for those who haven't
managed to get through WCGO yet.

/alias ;f /follow
/alias shortcut ;f 12

That will put your ;f alias on your +/= key, easy to hit with the
fourth or fifth finger of your right hand. Or with your mouse, if
that's how you operate. And you will run right up to the target,
and you can hit him, and if he tries to move away you'll still
/follow him.

I did indeed enjoy the breaking of the walls and said as much. Flooded Isengard also looked great. **Edit** In fact, there was a lot to enjoy with the Epic Story and I feel it did a great job in resolving some of the lingering loose ends. **End Edit** I just feel the transition between the two Isengards was a bit flat when you have the following source material to work from. We don't need a 'Jackson' - not asking for one.

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'When Saruman was safe back in Orthanc, it was not long before he set some of his precious machinery to work. By that time there were many Ents inside Isengard: some had followed Quickbeam, and others had burst in from the north and east; they were roaming about and doing a great deal of damage. Suddenly up came fires and foul fumes: the vents and shafts all over the plain began to spout and belch. Several of the Ents got scorched and blistered. One of them, Beechbone I think he was called, a very tall handsome Ent, got caught in a spray of some liquid fire and burned like a torch: a horrible sight.
'That sent them mad. I thought that they had been really roused before; but I was wrong. I saw what it was like at last. It was staggering. They roared and boomed and trumpeted, until stones began to crack and fall at the mere noise of them. Merry and I lay on the ground and stuffed our cloaks into our ears. Round and round the rock of Orthanc the Ents went striding and storming like a howling gale, breaking pillars, hurling avalanches of boulders down the shafts, tossing up huge slabs of stone into the air like leaves. The tower was in the middle of a spinning whirlwind. I saw iron posts and blocks of masonry go rocketing up hundreds of feet, and smash against the windows of Orthanc.

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'It must have been about midnight when the Ents broke the dams and poured all the gathered waters through a gap in the northern wall, down into Isengard. The Huorn-dark had passed, and the thunder had rolled away. The Moon was sinking behind the western mountains.
'Isengard began to fill up with black creeping streams and pools. They glittered in the last light of the Moon, as they spread over the plain. Every now and then the waters found their way down into some shaft or spouthole. Great white steams hissed up. Smoke rose in billows. There were explosions and gusts of fire. One great coil of vapour went whirling up, twisting round and round Orthanc, until it looked like a tall peak of cloud, fiery underneath and moonlit above. And still more water poured in, until at last Isengard looked like a huge flat saucepan, all steaming and bubbling.'

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Emphasis mine.



~John Ronald Reuel Tolkien
The Lord Of The Rings:
Two Towers - Chapter 9. Flotsam & Jetsam
(1955)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djheydt

I resemble that remark. My level 63 character was stuck in Moria
for months because WCGO was broken. When it was fixed (first
in BR, and then in live) he was able to do it, but it was still a pain
in the tail because I had to run right up to the Orc in order
to hit him. I had to hotkey an alias for /follow -- which I have on
all my live characters anyway, but I had to do it for Ori before I
clicked on that first NPC ring, because there was no chance to
do it afterwards.

Maybe I should list the necessary commands for those who haven't
managed to get through WCGO yet.

/alias ;f /follow
/alias shortcut ;f 12

That will put your ;f alias on your +/= key, easy to hit with the
fourth or fifth finger of your right hand. Or with your mouse, if
that's how you operate. And you will run right up to the target,
and you can hit him, and if he tries to move away you'll still
/follow him.

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I'm not a fan of session play and I've never pretended I was - it annoys me, but some folks really like it so I'm glad when it's optional and we both get what we want.

But I'm confused. I've done We Can't Get Out more times than I like to remember (both before and during the broken state) and I've never had to alias or short cut anything. Of course you run up to the mob to hit him, that's what melee classes do. And if they run away you chase them down and hit them again, but especially in that instance if you're using an AOE or even single target dps your target rarely runs away. There were ways posted to get through this while it was busted, and I can attest that they worked if you were stuck there. Huge thanks to the people who posted ways around it! But working as intended or not, I've never seen a need for an alias or /follow.

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Originally Posted by Radbug

I just feel the transition between the two Isengards was a bit flat...

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The reaction to the burning of Beechbone (and Quickbeam chasing after Saruman) might have been the missing piece here for you, then. Those had been planned, but unfortunately had to be left out for technical reasons. We load a great deal of data during this instance and didn't have enough space left for them; I briefly considered adding a second sessionplay to include them, but that had to end up on the cutting-room floor.

EDIT: It's not the first time I've had to adjust my expectations for some of these sessionplays, either. I had a great one planned for Gandalf vs. the Balrog, way back in Moria, but sometimes our eyes are bigger than our budgets/schedules and things need to be trimmed.

MoL

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

The reaction to the burning of Beechbone (and Quickbeam chasing after Saruman) might have been the missing piece here for you, then. Those had been planned, but unfortunately had to be left out for technical reasons. We load a great deal of data during this instance and didn't have enough space left for them; I briefly considered adding a second sessionplay to include them, but that had to end up on the cutting-room floor.

EDIT: It's not the first time I've had to adjust my expectations for some of these sessionplays, either. I had a great one planned for Gandalf vs. the Balrog, way back in Moria, but sometimes our eyes are bigger than our budgets/schedules and things need to be trimmed.

MoL

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When something like that happens and you know there is a gap between the plan and the reality that negatively affects the reaction a player has compared to the reaction you were going for, are you ever able to go back and revise after the fact, or is it more of a "learn from it and do things differently next time"?

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Originally Posted by Thornglen

When something like that happens and you know there is a gap between the plan and the reality that negatively affects the reaction a player has compared to the reaction you were going for, are you ever able to go back and revise after the fact, or is it more of a "learn from it and do things differently next time"?

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We revamp where we can, when there's time and space for it. I'm pretty happy with how these sessions turned out, though, so I wouldn't expect them to change. :)

MoL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djheydt

I resemble that remark. My level 63 character was stuck in Moria
for months because WCGO was broken. When it was fixed (first
in BR, and then in live) he was able to do it, but it was still a pain
in the tail because I had to run right up to the Orc in order
to hit him. I had to hotkey an alias for /follow -- which I have on
all my live characters anyway, but I had to do it for Ori before I
clicked on that first NPC ring, because there was no chance to
do it afterwards.

Maybe I should list the necessary commands for those who haven't
managed to get through WCGO yet.

/alias ;f /follow
/alias shortcut ;f 12

That will put your ;f alias on your +/= key, easy to hit with the
fourth or fifth finger of your right hand. Or with your mouse, if
that's how you operate. And you will run right up to the target,
and you can hit him, and if he tries to move away you'll still
/follow him.

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You do know that in the option menu (combat options to be exact) there is a little thing you can click (even in session play) that does exactly what you decribe. It is called "Enable Movement Assistance In Combat" When checked on all you have to do is target something and click a skill and your toon will auto run to it. If you also have eneable target assist checked as well, it will target the closest enemy and move you to them when you click an attack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

All of which is in the movie, but not in the book, which means we can't portray it that way. In the book there is no dam -- the Ents work for quite awhile to divert the river, which is probably a more realistic approach but doesn't lend itself to visually showing in-game as well.

I would have loved to show the water dramatically flooding the Ring of Isengard, but we decided pretty early on that it was not something we could handle to our satisfaction, so instead we spent our major art-bucks on the destruction of the walls, which I think turned out pretty well.

MoL

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Fair point. I guess I misinterpret the diverting the river part. I was thinking it as a force to wipe out Isengard (just like the dam burst). But your comment made me realise that diverting the river is more of aftermath of the battle to improve Isengard.

Yes i liked the destruction of the wall, but wish we didn't stop there :P Climb over the rumbles and kill more orcs! (no need for fade out). great to wipe out more orcs, more spectacular than We Cannot Get Out. Treebeard's health was 2.5 million, but that was unnecessary unless there are tonnes more orcs! No one will object if we can kill 100 at once :P

But budget, understandable, any chance of us fans help you lobby for more art bucks for those extension to the project?!?! Such as burning of the Ent you mentioned.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by djheydt

I resemble that remark. My level 63 character was stuck in Moria
for months because WCGO was broken.

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You are referring to a different issue. The content (Instance: We can not get out) is not completable. There isn't anybody that likes this situation - that includes all the players and the entire Lotro development staff. You are frustrated because you can not advance the Epic. I am frustrated because I can not go to Rivendell open the book in the Gazebo and repeat one of the most enjoyable instances in the game. Note to Self - See how the updated instances works.

The list of changed instances that move form easy - hard - insanity - not completable at all changes with each update. My Champion is stuck unable to complete the Kinsgstead arc in Helms Deep because Instance:Cheering Up Eowyn is not doable because Eowyan dies or my Champion dies due to the Update 13 changes. That is another instance that I have to add to my note. See I can get thru that instance. I probably go back after finishing Book 13 and hitting level 95.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadeOfLions

The reaction to the burning of Beechbone (and Quickbeam chasing after Saruman) might have been the missing piece here for you, then. Those had been planned, but unfortunately had to be left out for technical reasons. We load a great deal of data during this instance and didn't have enough space left for them; I briefly considered adding a second sessionplay to include them, but that had to end up on the cutting-room floor.

EDIT: It's not the first time I've had to adjust my expectations for some of these sessionplays, either. I had a great one planned for Gandalf vs. the Balrog, way back in Moria, but sometimes our eyes are bigger than our budgets/schedules and things need to be trimmed.

MoL

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Sadness. The existing Session Plays Turbine created for Volume 3, Book 14 provide a nice beginning to the story of the Ents attacking Isengard. There is no Coda - conclusion like there is in Book 3, Volume 10 with the march of the Huorns. I was really hoping for the sinking feeling of Beechbone being burned and cheering on Quickbeam. It felt incomplete to me.

The movies are enjoyable even if they are not very lore accurate. I do not want the movies being used as source material. I laughed and laughed at the part of the Helms Deep epic where the Lorien army is discussed. The ability of the Lotro developers to generate strong emotional responses like laughter and amusement via their writing and visuals is the best part of the Lotro.

My personal thanks MadeofLions for Lorien army tie in to the movies. If someone else did that part - please pass thanks on to them.