LM utility in Caverns of Thrumfall?

I'm just wondering who else is experiencing this. I find that despite the buffs to tactical classes, LM utility in the new instances, namely Caverns of Thrumfall, seems to be severely lacking...

On my LM, I usually take up a healing role in 3mans when running t2 content. I don't know if we are just missing mechanics or what, but when I run with friends, there is simply too much AoE damage from a bleed that does 15% morale damage every 2-3 seconds. There's nothing I can really do to mitigate this, as it doesn't pass through debuffs, and I'm not even sure where it comes from. I want to say its the drakelings, but I'm not noticing an induction or anything to signify when it is going to happen.

On the final boss, again, there is just way too much AoE damage being done. The stalagmites blowing up seem to just 1shot people at the moment in t2. The boss seems to put multiple heavy, incurable DoTs on people at time intervals that my LM simply cannot heal through when everyone is getting hit by them.

I can't even go DPS in the group either because of the fire mitigations that mobs have in there. I know they did that to try and limit RK/Hunt*rds a bit and allow other DPS classes to be used more often, but it seems that they completely forgot about a support class that cannot find a way to be useful in this 3man. Hell, I can't even beartank in this one because for some reason in blueline, the bear pet is only level 115 despite the t6 sidebar trait, Tutelage of the Brown Wizard, still saying "Your pets gain 3 levels".

Anyone else having issues here, or is it just a case of my needing to "git gud"? If I'm just missing something, anyone have any insight that can help? At the moment, it seems to me that LMs are going to basically be locked out of a third of the end-game instances because the mechanics inside seem to specifically counter anything we are capable of. Couple that with the fact that the locks on these instances are even more restrictive than they were in Mordor for t2 and the disappointing "mechanics" in the other 3man, Glimmerdeep, (stuns/punts/fears are not mechanics when they are the only things that happen, they are just an annoyance), and this really seems to be an incredibly lackluster update from my perspective...

I finished Caverns of Thrumfall in t2 with minstel and hunter and I had a lot of fun. Currently the best new instance for me.


If traited blue, on the way to bosses one can use CC, debuffs and bear in great use. In half the cases the minstel didn´t even need really to heal.

I tanked the first 2 bosses with the bear. With help of our debuffs it makes easy for minsrel to keep everyone alive.

When fighting the second boss, the group needs to stand on the wall to mitigate kicks. We spawned the drakelings only on the begining of the fight, defeated them and then it was only about aggro management between the hunter and bear. One needs to hold SI permamently on the bear, otherwise the boss will attack someone else.

The last boss is ... complicated if one wants to understand every little detail. I am not sure if I should write about it to avoid spoiling it. It required very specific strategy from LM point of you. If wished, I can explain it in detail.


In the end, you are right, there is so much aoe damage that LM can´t heal it by himself. And there is insane fire and frost mitigation, so LM can´t do damage there. But Lm can use its primary role: debuffing and CC. This way it makes possbile to return from this instance victorious.

Full details sounds like a good plan to me. There has been far too much where LMs have been seen as a "wasted dps slot" of late.

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Originally Posted by Estelrandir

I finished Caverns of Thrumfall in t2 with minstel and hunter and I had a lot of fun. Currently the best new instance for me.


If traited blue, on the way to bosses one can use CC, debuffs and bear in great use. In half the cases the minstel didn´t even need really to heal.

I tanked the first 2 bosses with the bear. With help of our debuffs it makes easy for minsrel to keep everyone alive.

When fighting the second boss, the group needs to stand on the wall to mitigate kicks. We spawned the drakelings only on the begining of the fight, defeated them and then it was only about aggro management between the hunter and bear. One needs to hold SI permamently on the bear, otherwise the boss will attack someone else.

The last boss is ... complicated if one wants to understand every little detail. I am not sure if I should write about it to avoid spoiling it. It required very specific strategy from LM point of you. If wished, I can explain it in detail.


In the end, you are right, there is so much aoe damage that LM can´t heal it by himself. And there is insane fire and frost mitigation, so LM can´t do damage there. But Lm can use its primary role: debuffing and CC. This way it makes possbile to return from this instance victorious.

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Is there a major difference between using blue and yellow in regards to using the bear? I know that traiting blue gives you extra morale and mitigations, your pets get a stat boost, plus the bear can throw a heal your way if you get a critical hit; on the other hand, going yellow would make your debuffs, CC, and heals more potent. Usually one can just resummon the bear if dies or is about to die and have it immediately taunt the mob again. Seems like when you use the bear that way, the stat boost from going blue wouldn't really make that large of a difference, especially since mob level seem to be hard capped at 120 making the 3 level increase from going blue useless once you're at lvl cap(hope that gets addressed soon). I suppsoe it comes down to whether you want better defenses or better support ability?

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Originally Posted by cbfan14

Is there a major difference between using blue and yellow in regards to using the bear?

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It depends on your situation: If you are fighting weaker mobs and you are respawning bear often to reset its cds, then yellow is better. If you are fighting bosses or really hard hitting enemies with big moral pool, then respawning bear might lead to unwanted damage to the group, therefore here is better to go blue.

Little detail: use your stun or bear stun on the enemy first and at its end use the taunt. This way dd doesn´t take damage and bear has better aggro.



Etterfang:


The most important detail: Debuff the boss on ranged damage as much as possible. This means using raven´s second channel skill on cd and using lighting skill on fire lore (trait playing with the fire). Remember, raven from sic´em is also using this channeling skill.

We can have 50% time uptime from raven and near 100% from lighting. But remember that you can´t use any fire or frost skills, otherwise you rewrite the lighting debuff. Therefore don´t use any, they do very little damage and thus they make more harm than good. If you need refresh the fire lore and frost lore (keep always both of them) with wind lore (frost skill), time it so that immidiately after refreshing you use the lighting skill.


Tip for avoiding the bug with reset: If you click the first pillar when it is active and then die afterwards, this pillar won´t be active in future tries. Therefore click both of them at the end of the fight. The first shield will ware off after 15-20s.


Mechanims/boss attacks:

fire breath: Opening attack of the dragon. 91k opening hit on me. Learn its animation. You need to hide behind the stalagmits for this attack. Be sure that you have buff from them for protection. When the dragon is already breathing the fire, you can come out of hiding, the damage is already assigned and you will see the result at the end of animation (you shouls see 3 times immune if done correctly). This attack comes then every 70s. Hide behind stalagmits only for this attacks, so they don´t get unnecessary damage from other attacks.

echo (show yourself): This is the one with falling boulders. 60-61k initial hit on me. There are two hits. First one is undodgeable, but if you run out of the field you avoid the second one. This attack starts at 85% of morale and then comes every 70s. The animation is rising of the right paw.

Fire fields: if you stand at approximatly 35+m distance from boss, you will avoid them. 50k hit on me. One of standard attacks

Fear: No idea when it comes.

Poison dot: I believe this also one of standard attacks through which the dragon rotates. I believe this one is debuffed through frost lore.

Fire ball: I would say common ranged attack, but the boss is always rotating through all of them and this one hits like for 40-50k on medium and light classes.


The mentioned damage is not debuffed. So quite a lot of attacks are almost one shotting. Therefore permament debuffing on all attack types is utmost important. If lighting debuff and raven debuff are both active, (twice -50%), the combined debuff is then -75%, not 0%.


Position: Try not the hide behind stalagmits for all the time, you want them alive for as long as possible. All aoe attacks can hit them too. If possible, stand at least 35+m range. For lighting skill you will need come closer (25m range), thus it is a lot of running few steps closer and then back.

The group can´t stand together, otherwise falling boulders will kill you. If they are coming, try to stand enough far away from stalagmits (avoiding unnecessary damage for them). Stay close meanigfully close to stalagmits, so you can immidiately hide if fire breath is coming.

At 40% the first pillar is active. Don´t click it now to avoid the reset bug. Let it for the end of the fight. The dragon will get shield which wares off after couple of seconds (10-20? not sure). At the same time 2 fire lights (enemies, don´t know their name) will spawn. Use daze immiadetely (bane flare if they are together). Despawn rawen and bring the bear out. Renew the debuffs on the boss and debuff the lights.

in other words, bring the situation under control. And then same story as with mobs on the way to the boss. You use stun and bear taunt to tank one of them while keeping the other one dazed. Then defeat the other one.

When the second pillar will be active, new two fire lights will spawn. defeat one and keep the other one dazed of both of them under cc, someone from group should click both pillars. Here you need to act quickly, the boss is immune to everything, even the debuffs. Then loot.


TL;TR: use raven, debuff the boss on melee, tactic and ranged (through use of lightning skills). At 40% spawn two enemies, defeat both of them, use bear for them. Don´t click the pillar. When the second boss is active, click both pillars. Loot.

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Originally Posted by Estelrandir

Etterfang:

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Thanks for the breakdown of the fight, Estelrandir. Whenever I ran it, we kept nearly getting 1shot, and then with the boss actually bugging so often, we weren't really able to figure out much of anything. As such, we kinda gave up on the run for the time being as having a final boss bug can be pretty annoying to say the least.

Forgot to update thread until now, but I just finished Caverns of Thrumfall t2 on my LM the other day in a healing role. Estelrandir's explanation of the fight really helped a ton so we actually knew what was going on.

Group composition was Guard/LM/Hunter. On the final boss, the only reason I was able to heal enough is because the Guard had me Shield-Walled, so I didn't have to worry about healing myself. This is definitely harder than it should be for a 3man though, and this isn't even on max difficulty... I don't know if t3 will be possible or not.

My kinny and I already posted the strategy we used here.



This doesn't change my mind that this is a terrible instance though. If we had a Champ, Burg, or even a Warden in a DPS role, it definitely would not be possible. RK would take too long, and would have to be inside the AoE range anyway, so probably wouldn't be possible either with an LM healing. Also, if there was any other tank other than a Guard, we would not have even had a chance with an LM healer because Shield-Wall is a must.

What really gets me is that there is absolutely no reason to bring an LM to that instance at all other than to try and shoehorn yourself into a run for the biweekly "favored" loot attempts. I was working my *** off on that boss, as it took about an hour and a half of wiping before we finally got it, and I still felt entirely useless even after finishing the run because any other "Healer" (aside from a blue Cappy, although a Cappy could tank it with ease) could have done it so much more easily. I mean to put it into perspective, a group of friends running a tanking Warden/Mini/Hunt*rd completed the instance twice before we even finished the first run we did, and the Mini was drunk off her *** to boot... I don't see why a 3man should be so punishing to so many classes, requiring such a specific group composition to even have a chance at completing in a timely manner.

Did this last night with a scratch kin group of Hunter, Captain and my LM. Blue lined through to last boss where I went to yellow. The debuff tactics worked very nicely even though I got one shotted about half way through. Had it not been a kin group I doubt I'd have got an invite, it comes over a very LM unfriendly and not especially well designed (or tested tbh)

Biggest gripe? Its desperately repetitive and tedious.
Second biggest? The reward/work ratio is chuffin' awful for what was a low dps group.