DPS rotation

I am curious about your dps rotation. Here are some facts:


1) expose buff is renewed on every shape change (also bear -> man). It is enough to use it once and then never again. Just don´t forget to switch form within 15s.

2) trash makes +15% damage buff. Don´t forget to return to bear form within 12s.

3) to use trash tier 2/3 you have 5s window. You are not able to go in man form and back within these 5s.

4) if you want to use trash tier 3, you don´t have enough time to renew the dot from slash.

5) bash and biting edge (dot) are dealing the most damage.


So there are two main approaches in my eyes: you are going for trash t3 or slash t3.

Trash t3:

trash t1 -> bash/rending blows/vicious claw/bees -> trash t2 -> bash/rending blows/vicious claw/bees -> trash t3 -> bash/rending blows/vicious claw/bees -> slash -> biting edge -> trash t1 -> ....


or short: 3xtimes trash + random bear skill and then slash + biting edge.

This random bear skill should be: rending blows, vicious claws, bees, bash, Nature´s vengeance, in this order. (of ocurse, you start the fight with expose -> trash -> bash)


Slash tier 3:

achieve the t3 dot and then use only trash t2: slash -> biting edge -> trash t1 -> bash/rending blows/vicious claw/bees -> trash t2 -> bash/rending blows/vicious claw/bees -> slash -> ...

the issue here is that biting edge might not be of cd, so you need insert 1 skill more in between (slam). Not sure right now.


Thus my question: Do you have something better?

If you are thinking what about execute and FR+RM combo, it is just a dps loss in my eyes.

The most damage is done in dots and that means the crit chance is much more important than one harder hiting skill (execute). Using execute means losing 12% crit chance and stucked longer in man form to generate the wrath.

Also, it is very difficult to fire execute because it is procs. And that means that quite often you will have less than 100 wrath and thus you won´t get the bonus damage for full wrath.


FR+RM combo is good in group of enemies, but weak against 1 target. Well, ok, it isn´t weak, just sligthly weaker. Still a dps loss.

Well, Relentless Maul is hitting like a truck, IMO. 45k to 55k hits each time (not all, but most hits). One use of RM can get you about 250k damage some times depending on critical hits. But, keep in mind you have a chance of a critical hit on each RM hit. Also, just a reminder to new bears, make sure you have auto attack enabled. In a prolonged fight, that damage will be up in the top 3 of all skills.

The only other thing I would recommend would be acquiring and including Armor Crush in your rotation (bear form). It not only is doing some nice damage, but it has a very quick release, a relatively short cooldown, and it's a wrath builder in bear form. But, mostly because it will enhance your other dps skills in bear form. Bonus: it serves as a second interrupt, so you don't have to save vicious claws for boss inductions.

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Originally Posted by Casmond

Armor Crush ... and it's a wrath builder in bear form.

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Rending blows = Armor crush for me. And it isn´t wrath builder, it costs 10 wrath.


I will give RM second thought and try it once more once bullroarer is online, but I am still not fully convinced about it.

i think FR+RM combo should be used at the start of the fight then you just doing your normal rotation. Also t3 Slash strategy was pretty good for me, dps was ok, but maybe there is some better ways idk. Agreed with your point on Execute.

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Originally Posted by Estelrandir

Rending blows = Armor crush for me. And it isn´t wrath builder, it costs 10 wrath.


I will give RM second thought and try it once more once bullroarer is online, but I am still not fully convinced about it.

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Well, that may be what the tooltip is telling you, but my armor crush is building wrath.

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Originally Posted by Casmond

Well, that may be what the tooltip is telling you, but my armor crush is building wrath.

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How are you traiting? My Armour Crush costs 15 Wrath regardless of which trait line I'm using... Both tooltip and actual cost, just tested.

I did some dps tests on bullroarer. i changed my mind on FR+RM combo. FR+RM deals a lot of damage, it´s so one can use it he/she wishes so.

Still, with 29,1% crit (0,9% missing to cap) and 220% mastery (20,3% missing to the cap) I achieved 38-42k dps, usually 40-41k dps. But someone posted dps with values at 57k dps. So I am curious how to get to these values.

I doubt that new raid relics soon to come make so big difference. The boosted dps on ILI from beta 1 could, mayby, not sure. (If you remember, you could increase the dps by 5 additional levels in 1st round of beta. This wasn´t possible in another betarounds, but the increased dps remained on weapons if leveled).


Simply said, I am curious how to get to 57k dps. That´s like 50% more than I am able to do.

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Originally Posted by Estelrandir

I did some dps tests on bullroarer. i changed my mind on FR+RM combo. FR+RM deals a lot of damage, it´s so one can use it he/she wishes so.

Still, with 29,1% crit (0,9% missing to cap) and 220% mastery (20,3% missing to the cap) I achieved 38-42k dps, usually 40-41k dps. But someone posted dps with values at 57k dps. So I am curious how to get to these values.

I doubt that new raid relics soon to come make so big difference. The boosted dps on ILI from beta 1 could, mayby, not sure. (If you remember, you could increase the dps by 5 additional levels in 1st round of beta. This wasn´t possible in another betarounds, but the increased dps remained on weapons if leveled).


Simply said, I am curious how to get to 57k dps. That´s like 50% more than I am able to do.

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I've been wondering the same myself since it feels like there is some big ingredient I'm missing overall. The highest I've managed to parse is ~48k but that's just for one portion of a dummy fight and not sustained over the entire duration, and when I look at the various tooltips it seems like my Bash bleed in particular does much less damage per tick. I've been trying all sorts of approaches from heavily overcapping crit (up to >70% crit magnitude) with some loss of PM as a result, to maxing out both crit and PM and every mix inbetween so I'm a bit stumped with it really.

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Originally Posted by Estelrandir

I did some dps tests on bullroarer. i changed my mind on FR+RM combo. FR+RM deals a lot of damage, it´s so one can use it he/she wishes so.

Still, with 29,1% crit (0,9% missing to cap) and 220% mastery (20,3% missing to the cap) I achieved 38-42k dps, usually 40-41k dps. But someone posted dps with values at 57k dps. So I am curious how to get to these values.

I doubt that new raid relics soon to come make so big difference. The boosted dps on ILI from beta 1 could, mayby, not sure. (If you remember, you could increase the dps by 5 additional levels in 1st round of beta. This wasn´t possible in another betarounds, but the increased dps remained on weapons if leveled).


Simply said, I am curious how to get to 57k dps. That´s like 50% more than I am able to do.

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57k+ parses are with capped Crit + capped PM.

My best parse on beta is 59k so far with 258k crit + 302k PM which seems alright but after accounting for Expose mit debuff it's still by far the lowest group/raid DPS class atm (yes I'm willing to bet even red guards are better)

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Originally Posted by Antophant

57k+ parses are with capped Crit + capped PM.

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As mentioned, I missed just 0,9% for crit cap and ca 20% for mastery cap and i came to 40k dps. Even if I would rise these values to cap, I won´t gain 50% dps more. Therefore I would like to know what I do wrong.

I don’t have a good red build yet, but based on your original post you may be spending too much time in bear form. Man seems to do significantly better since biting and slash both outdps bash easily plus the faster skill firing. Also not sure if you’re using execute, I wouldn’t bother if you are.

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Originally Posted by Estelrandir

As mentioned, I missed just 0,9% for crit cap and ca 20% for mastery cap and i came to 40k dps. Even if I would rise these values to cap, I won´t gain 50% dps more. Therefore I would like to know what I do wrong.

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*This is just what I do, other players will likely have different tips*

Only use Expose once (going into bearform and into manform both refresh the duration), it has a slowish animation and average damage.

Combo Vicious Claw with Slash or Biting Edge, Maybe its good with certain bear skills but I found it clunky when trying to animation cut Bash and Armour Crush.

Maintain Slash bleed tier 3 in single target fights, in trash pulls with 2+ mobs prioritize Thrash tier 3.

Maintain 15% damage buff from Thrash.

Try and squeeze 2 skills in between Thrashes when you can, Grisly Cry + Bee Swarm for example.

Swap forms to maintain Armour Crush and Bash bleed.

Don't touch Execute as it's a DPS loss to use, someday Vastin will acknowledge that it's not working properly.

Only use Relentless Maul with 100% crit buff, when the skill is done you can quickly use another skill and get the 100% crit chance. Relentless Maul+Biting Edge usually.


@Vastin Fix bugged Wrath bonus damage for Execute please, still gives old 40ish% bonus damage instead of the proposed 250% bonus damage.

I never realized the 250% in execute was bugged to 40%. Good to know thanks, I just knew it was too low.
Also didn’t realize the second guaranteed crit skill after FR+RM, will have to try that.

Everything you said there looks like good advice to me antophant.

When I dps with my beorning, I go the "keep the dots up"-route instead of thrash3.

Still, imo, red beorning while being less clunky feels more boring than before.

Execute feels completely awful. I'd rather have the older version with lower execute damage than having unusable proccs because its still on cd and consumes all wrath. I dont even care if it can crit or not, that can be balanced with damage numbers... but the current version of execute is really annoying.

Plus, we cant anymore stack Bash-bleeds. This change has never been announced and I call that a bug. An annoying bug, which I truly dislike.

Then, getting one or two more slash-bleed ticks would be really welcome to be able to keep it running while going for thrash3.

I dont even see any reason, why redline beornings should generate wrath with Thrash... thats nice for blue to never leave bear while still spamming tanky skills... but red and yellow dont need it.


And for AoE... I still feel having Thrash3 be AoE via trait is annoying. That trait should instead reduce maul CD or give some ability a chance to reset maul CD. Maul is our AoE skill... needing to fire two skills to unlock a single AoE punch is just annoying.

If a mob is under 200-300k morale I don’t bother with thrash 3 either. Bleeds and faster man skills will kill them before you fire off all 3 and take advantage of the 15% damage.
Our bleeds need to last longer. Slash I believe is only 10s, and biting edge is only 12s. If you swap to bear at any point to do a rotation there’s not really enough time to keep all the bleeds running if you ever throw in thrash. This would be another possible legacy or set of legacies, if you refer to the recent posts in the main thread there are other legacy suggestions there to help all the lines.

I had assumed the inability to stack bash was intended. It was noted that it should be fixed that multiple bears can each apply a bash without overwriting each other.

I can't describe my trait line and rotation in detail cause of lunguage barrier but that was something like this: Biting Edge traited on six sec dots, bee swarm with 15% debuff from yellow line (cause of that i can't achive full traited Armor Crush but i didn't notice a big difference even without that skill at all). All i did is just using Biting Edge on cd, maintain Slash bleed tier 3, Bush bleed and Bee Swarm debuff + bleed, RM with 100% crit chance from FR and ofc single use of Expose. So its literally was swap swap swap all the time. Vicious Claw used to cut Bash animation but maybe its not the best choice idk. Also there is no place for Trash 3 in that rotation, only t1 or t2. Capped mastery and crit, full dps legacy, new dps relic on the axe but not from raid (bartered in Skarhald on Bullroarer) gives me 56k on best parse. Usually it was 50k+.

I’d look at using armor crush instead of bees personally. Crush gives you something we are severely lacking: fast attack bear skills. It increases your damage and also gives you another skill to use.

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Originally Posted by dsltn07

I had assumed the inability to stack bash was intended. It was noted that it should be fixed that multiple bears can each apply a bash without overwriting each other.

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Well... before, a single beorning could all-time have 2 and sometimes 3 bash bleeds active.
Sure, its nice if several beornings dont overwrite their bleeds... but I dont see how thats related with the hefty dps nerf for a single beorning.
Afair, no patchnote ever said: you cant stack bash and recuperate anymore.
Additionally, Vastin never wrote in any post that these changes were intended.
And I cant find a good reason to change it the way it was changed. The older version was clearly preferable.

I’m not saying there was a good reason for it, I think that it was intended as a fix that unintentionally locked us to one bash per character.

Per U23.7.1 release notes:
Most Beorning DoT's and some effects are now tracked per user. They should stack on targets properly, rather than interacting or overwriting each other.

This reads to me as though the effect is now refreshable per character, and can no longer stack from the same character.

EDIT to elaborate:
So if you had 3 bears before, they’d all keep overwriting bash and you’d be stuck with 1 from 3 bears.
Now, same scenario with 3 bears, all 3 can stack a bash, but only one bash each.

Problem is, if there’s only one bear, now you’re stuck with just one bash since it’s per character.
This is how I interpreted the patch notes anyways.

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Originally Posted by dsltn07

I’m not saying there was a good reason for it, I think that it was intended as a fix that unintentionally locked us to one bash per character.

Per U23.7.1 release notes:
Most Beorning DoT's and some effects are now tracked per user. They should stack on targets properly, rather than interacting or overwriting each other.

This reads to me as though the effect is now refreshable per character, and can no longer stack from the same character.

EDIT to elaborate:
So if you had 3 bears before, they’d all keep overwriting bash and you’d be stuck with 1 from 3 bears.
Now, same scenario with 3 bears, all 3 can stack a bash, but only one bash each.

Problem is, if there’s only one bear, now you’re stuck with just one bash since it’s per character.
This is how I interpreted the patch notes anyways.

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All I read in that notes is, that dots from different beornings dont interact with each other (anymore). I see nothing that states, that one beorning may no longer stack his own dots. Just one bash is simply annoying, just like only one recuperate.
Could as well just decrease duration to CD and increase damage equally if thats whats targetted.

Like I said, I think it was unintended. It depends on how the coding behind the skill references new applications.

Thank you very much for the tips. I was also trying slash 3 tactic, but somehow I always achieved lower dps than with thrash t3. Still, I found some usefull tips and I will try them the next time.

Im curious as well. I by no means have the best dps gear but, my highest sustained dps is only 20K (1min 30s ish on a scourge) I wonder how all of you guys are getting 60K dps. Are you measuring it by gathering like 20 enemies and relentless maul them all to death, or is it actual single target dps? It just seems skeptical. Also are you measuring actual sustained dps? Cause my hunter can get some really high dps numbers not sustained. Im very skeptical considering the fact that i have tried all of your guys rotations. None of them were really that different from my original. Just asking cause your dps is not supposed to be measured by the 0.5 seconds it took you to do over 100K. You can see why im skeptical.

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Originally Posted by morrthe

Im curious as well. I by no means have the best dps gear but, my highest sustained dps is only 20K (1min 30s ish on a scourge) I wonder how all of you guys are getting 60K dps. Are you measuring it by gathering like 20 enemies and relentless maul them all to death, or is it actual single target dps? It just seems skeptical. Also are you measuring actual sustained dps? Cause my hunter can get some really high dps numbers not sustained. Im very skeptical considering the fact that i have tried all of your guys rotations. None of them were really that different from my original. Just asking cause your dps is not supposed to be measured by the 0.5 seconds it took you to do over 100K. You can see why im skeptical.

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Check this post:

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Originally Posted by Menegris

Solo target dps still pretty good btw

https://i.imgur.com/fZNOQ6A.jpg

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If you are measuring dps, it depends on a lot of factors. So if we want to compare, the same conditions for everyone are needed. This is achieved on training dummy on beta server, where it remains active for 3min.

Perhaps I'm missing something but it seems possible to keep slash 3 and thrash 3 up all the time. if you hit slash immediately before changing forms, hit your three thrashes (with fillers inbetween) then swap back immediately after thrash 3 and hit slash again, you keep the tier 3 dot ticking. Of course even one more second on slash would give you a bit of grace, but it can be done as is.