Reveal Weakness died for this

Burglar:

Most burglar skills have received a moderate damage increase. This was the increase intended for release in a previous update. We will also be making more significant burglar changes in a future patch.

Before today's Patch:

https://abload.de/img/screenshot00162jhjav.jpg

After today's Patch with same stats:

https://abload.de/img/screenshot001895oj4n.jpg

10 of 13 damage skills have been increased. DoTs have NOT been increased (although they should have been according to U23.1.7 Patch Notes).

In my case this resulted in the following (at ~207000 Mastery):

Exploit Opening: + 1400-1700 Damage
Knives Out: + 600-700 Damage
Surprise Strike: + 900-1200 Damage
Subtle Stab: + 200-200 Damage
Gambler's Advantage: + 700-1200 Damage (no DoT increase)
Double-edged Strike: 1. Hit + 200-400 Damage 2. Hit + 700-1000 Damage
Flashing Blades: 1. Hit + 100-100 Damage (basically 0) 2. Hit + 1000-1400 Damage
Provoke: + 500-800 Damage
Exposed Threat: + 700-1200 Damage
Cunning Attack: + 700-700 Damage (no DoT increase)

Feint Attack, Throw Knife and Coup de Grace have not been changed.

This should result in about 2-3% more damage overall, so it's basically nothing. Reveal Weakness was nerfed by ~8% (19,6% down to 11,5%) back in U23.1.7.

Hopefully the next update will actually bring some meaningful changes to Burglars.

I had the pleasure of noticing the same "moderate damage increase" ::facepalm::

It's weird... some skills' damage actually decreased for me. Quite a bit. I'm still investigating whether I f****d up with my screenshots, but I can't really see any point where I could have.
Comparison to follow.

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Originally Posted by dwarfThar

It's weird... some skills' damage actually decreased for me. Quite a bit. I'm still investigating whether I f****d up with my screenshots, but I can't really see any point where I could have.
Comparison to follow.

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Yes, you might have switched equip which changed your stats. I have the exact same stats as before on my Screenshots.

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Originally Posted by Snobs

DoTs have NOT been increased

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As i have said in other threads, it seems to me like burglar DoTs have only base component. Eg. your weapon dmg doesnt effect dots, doesnt matter if you use butter knife or top end game weapon, the DoT will be more or less same.
More or less because i have not tested it with weapons that dont have other benefits that can have small impact like mastery or agility.
I have looked at some other DoTs in game and they seemed all to be scaling with weapon dps, significantly.

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Originally Posted by 4andreas

As i have said in other threads, it seems to me like burglar DoTs have only base component. Eg. your weapon dmg doesnt effect dots, doesnt matter if you use butter knife or top end game weapon, the DoT will be more or less same.
More or less because i have not tested it with weapons that dont have other benefits that can have small impact like mastery or agility.
I have looked at some other DoTs in game and they seemed all to be scaling with weapon dps, significantly.

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This might be the reason but it's no justification why DoTs are not being increased. Besides that, overall DPS has changed by only like 2-3% maximum. Burglars still only have around 50-60% of all other DPS Classes' DPS and this won't change by giving irrelevant damage skills like Exploit Opening +1400-1700 Damage Range. I hope Vastin realises in what bad state Burglar currently is and makes appropriate changes accordingly. Today's ''Damage increase" is simply a joke. In addition to that, as stated in today's release notes, this was the compensation for the damage lost due to the Reveal Weakness nerf. Reveal Weakness has been nerfed by ~8% (19,6% down to 11,5%), so why is Burglar only getting 2-3% damage increase? SSG could have literally said nothing and nobody would have even noticed any change. What a joke.

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Originally Posted by Snobs

Burglar:

Most burglar skills have received a moderate damage increase. This was the increase intended for release in a previous update. We will also be making more significant burglar changes in a future patch.

Before today's Patch:

https://abload.de/img/screenshot00162jhjav.jpg

After today's Patch with same stats:

https://abload.de/img/screenshot001895oj4n.jpg

10 of 13 damage skills have been increased. DoTs have NOT been increased (although they should have been according to U23.1.7 Patch Notes).

In my case this resulted in the following (at ~207000 Mastery):

Exploit Opening: + 1400-1700 Damage
Knives Out: + 600-700 Damage
Surprise Strike: + 900-1200 Damage
Subtle Stab: + 200-200 Damage
Gambler's Advantage: + 700-1200 Damage (no DoT increase)
Double-edged Strike: 1. Hit + 200-400 Damage 2. Hit + 700-1000 Damage
Flashing Blades: 1. Hit + 100-100 Damage (basically 0) 2. Hit + 1000-1400 Damage
Provoke: + 500-800 Damage
Exposed Threat: + 700-1200 Damage
Cunning Attack: + 700-700 Damage (no DoT increase)

Feint Attack, Throw Knife and Coup de Grace have not been changed.

This should result in about 2-3% more damage overall, so it's basically nothing.

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If youre going to nerf a huge skill like Reveal weakness and then claim you will compensate that nerf with an increase to burglar damage. Then do it already and compensate the nerf. Stop playing around with this moderate damage increase and make a burglar single target competitive. Right now in end game they are nothing more than disable bots. If double disables wasnt a significant debuff then there would be zero reason to bring a burglar to the raid. A class only being useful for one skill is absurd. Can a developer please get a grip on the burglar, this has been out of hand for awhile now.

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Originally Posted by Snobs

Yes, you might have switched equip which changed your stats. I have the exact same stats as before on my Screenshots.

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I don't even have equip to switch atm :p I'm pretty sure nothing changed, as I took my screenshots before logging out yesterday and right after logging back in. My mastery is quite low - 157k as I'm still wearing mostly level 115 equip.
Those are my numbers (pre update left, post update right)

https://i.imgur.com/HfaVyHa.jpg

IFA took a hit, first attack of FB and DES, SS and CdG. I'm really clueless what happened there :confused:

@Vastin: Any idea what happened there?

The tooltips *should* be accurate....but I don't know if that is really something you can rely on. Maybe a before/after comparison of combat analysis to see if what the tooltips say is actually true. Just a suggestion for future verifications. I don't have a burglar myself but have seen enough bugs in lotro that I wouldn't always trust what those labels say.

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Originally Posted by BigLotroFan

The tooltips *should* be accurate....but I don't know if that is really something you can rely on. Maybe a before/after comparison of combat analysis to see if what the tooltips say is actually true. Just a suggestion for future verifications. I don't have a burglar myself but have seen enough bugs in lotro that I wouldn't always trust what those labels say.

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How would tooltip damage not be accurate? If anything at all, testing DPS on Target Dummies is inconsistent and not accurate. If tooltip Damage increases by 1% on all skills, overall DPS will increase by 1% too. These tooltips are all with the exact same stats/gear. My screenshots are accurate values.

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Originally Posted by luckygirl1

If youre going to nerf a huge skill like Reveal weakness and then claim you will compensate that nerf with an increase to burglar damage. Then do it already and compensate the nerf. Stop playing around with this moderate damage increase and make a burglar single target competitive. Right now in end game they are nothing more than disable bots. If double disables wasnt a significant debuff then there would be zero reason to bring a burglar to the raid. A class only being useful for one skill is absurd. Can a developer please get a grip on the burglar, this has been out of hand for awhile now.

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Sad part is that SSG is trying to move away from "OP Group Buffs/Boss Debuffs" that are defining a class by a single skill which is the case for yellow Burglar as you describe. The logical reason according to SSG would therefore be to nerf trick: Disable because why not make the Burglar an even worse PvE class than they are already. Red Line Burglars only have about 50-60% of all other DPS classes' DPS, today's "DPS Boost" will not change anything; they simply can not compete against ANY other DPS class. Yellow Burglar only works as an addition to yellow Line Loremasters and they can never replace one. Therefore yellow Line Burglar will never be played in 3- and 6-man content (and especially not questing/anywhere else) and will only appear in 12 man Raids due to "OP Boss Debuffs". Blue Line's role in Group/Raid play is not defined, there need to happen dramatic changes to the Blue Line to make it useful/enjoyable anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Snobs

This might be the reason but it's no justification why DoTs are not being increased. Besides that, overall DPS has changed by only like 2-3% maximum. Burglars still only have around 50-60% of all other DPS Classes' DPS and this won't change by giving irrelevant damage skills like Exploit Opening +1400-1700 Damage Range. I hope Vastin realises in what bad state Burglar currently is and makes appropriate changes accordingly. Today's ''Damage increase" is simply a joke. In addition to that, as stated in today's release notes, this was the compensation for the damage lost due to the Reveal Weakness nerf. Reveal Weakness has been nerfed by ~8% (19,6% down to 11,5%), so why is Burglar only getting 2-3% damage increase? SSG could have literally said nothing and nobody would have even noticed any change. What a joke.

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Which dps classes are those? Champ? Beorning? or the obvious Hunter and RK?, that probably have too much dps and need a nerf anyway.

You are a support class. The Beorning is a dps support and does less dps than a burglar. But a Beorning does not struggle to kill. Just lower the top dps (Hunter and RK mostly) down closer to the other classes and adjust content.

Healing as been nerfed down considerably, now its time the dps got nerfed down somewhat. Would certainly help pvmp.

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

Which dps classes are those? Champ? Beorning? or the obvious Hunter and RK?, that probably have too much dps and need a nerf anyway.

You are a support class. The Beorning is a dps support and does less dps than a burglar. But a Beorning does not struggle to kill. Just lower the top dps (Hunter and RK mostly) down closer to the other classes and adjust content.

Healing as been nerfed down considerably, now its time the dps got nerfed down somewhat. Would certainly help pvmp.

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The point I'm trying to make is that Red Line Burglar is not useful for anything but PvMP. They're terrible at everything in all PvE content. Blue Line is also not played anywhere because it doesn't fit any role whatsoever and Yellow Line is only playable in Raid content (no 3-man/6-man content). Red Line Burglar used to be able to compete with other DPS classes (like Hunter/RK/Champion/Warden) or at least be closer to them than now. Nowadays, Red Line Burglars only have about 50-60% of those classes' DPS, they have 0 AOE and are MELEE ONLY and they will never be used as a DPS therefore. In addition to that, SSG just recently nerfed Reveal Weakness so that it doesn't stack anymore. However, yellow Line Burglar is mandatory for the raid and therefore Red Line Burglar will never be played in the new raid.

While Beorning certainly has some DPS support buffs, his main role is a healer so why would you think they should have equal/more dps than a Burglar (regardless of trait line). However, Burglars main role never was support on Red Line, so they definitly need a big DPS buff to be able to be compete.

Crits for dps and heals being significantly nerfed across the board would be fun. Would probably hurt hunter and RKs the most. Would normalize healing a good deal. Let critical damage be a burg specialty again like it used to be, before hunters and RKs took over Lotro.

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Originally Posted by Snobs

The point I'm trying to make is that Red Line Burglar is not useful for anything but PvMP. They're terrible at everything in all PvE content. Blue Line is also not played anywhere because it doesn't fit any role whatsoever and Yellow Line is only playable in Raid content (no 3-man/6-man content). Red Line Burglar used to be able to compete with other DPS classes (like Hunter/RK/Champion/Warden) or at least be closer to them than now. Nowadays, Red Line Burglars only have about 50-60% of those classes' DPS, they have 0 AOE and are MELEE ONLY and they will never be used as a DPS therefore. In addition to that, SSG just recently nerfed Reveal Weakness so that it doesn't stack anymore. However, yellow Line Burglar is mandatory for the raid and therefore Red Line Burglar will never be played in the new raid.

While Beorning certainly has some DPS support buffs, his main role is a healer so why would you think they should have equal/more dps than a Burglar (regardless of trait line). However, Burglars main role never was support on Red Line, so they definitly need a big DPS buff to be able to be compete.

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Beo is almost a better tank than healer at this point btw. I can give guards and cappys a run for it anyways.

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Originally Posted by dwarfThar

IFA took a hit, first attack of FB and DES, SS and CdG. I'm really clueless what happened there :confused:

@Vastin: Any idea what happened there?

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I'd say I really have no idea how you managed to nerf yourself via an update with nothing but numerical increases in it for burglars. ;)

The OP's numbers look correct. Many of the burglar skills increased base damage by about 10-20%, as indicated by their tool tips - EXCEPTING a few of the fastest/most powerful skills. I'm not boosting those short term because I want to keep the skills in a better comparative range until I have a chance to finish my broader pass on the class over the next couple weeks.

Will this result in a 10-20% increase in DPS? Probably not, because, as noted, some of the biggest skills weren't boosted, or were boosted by a smaller value. Will it be 2%? I rather imagine that the Burglars are clever enough to parley this buff into a bigger increase than that through tweaks to rotations, stats and tactics.

-Vastin

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Originally Posted by Vastin

I'd say I really have no idea how you managed to nerf yourself via an update with nothing but numerical increases in it for burglars. ;)

The OP's numbers look correct. Many of the burglar skills increased base damage by about 10-20%, as indicated by their tool tips - EXCEPTING a few of the fastest/most powerful skills. I'm not boosting those short term because I want to keep the skills in a better comparative range until I have a chance to finish my broader pass on the class over the next couple weeks.

Will this result in a 10-20% increase in DPS? Probably not, because, as noted, some of the biggest skills weren't boosted, or were boosted by a smaller value. Will it be 2%? I rather imagine that the Burglars are clever enough to parley this buff into a bigger increase than that through tweaks to rotations, stats and tactics.

-Vastin

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Based on the numbers seen I highly doubt this will impact anything for the burglar. Red line damage is still no were near competitive for 3 man and 6 man content versus other classes. The real lack they have is no AoE at all. So that leaves them to compete as a single target against a hunter. Lets look at a scenario...."TG Tier 3 5/6 need dps"....a hunter and a burg send you a tell. Which would you choose Vastin, seriously?

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Originally Posted by Vastin

I'd say I really have no idea how you managed to nerf yourself via an update with nothing but numerical increases in it for burglars. ;)

The OP's numbers look correct. Many of the burglar skills increased base damage by about 10-20%, as indicated by their tool tips - EXCEPTING a few of the fastest/most powerful skills. I'm not boosting those short term because I want to keep the skills in a better comparative range until I have a chance to finish my broader pass on the class over the next couple weeks.

Will this result in a 10-20% increase in DPS? Probably not, because, as noted, some of the biggest skills weren't boosted, or were boosted by a smaller value. Will it be 2%? I rather imagine that the Burglars are clever enough to parley this buff into a bigger increase than that through tweaks to rotations, stats and tactics.

-Vastin

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I honestly wish this change wasn't even announced...and please don't suggest that changing our rotations, stats or tactics will provide any noticeable increase in DPS. Much of our DPS comes from CA bleeds, IFA crits and obviously the big hitter of CdG, none of which were touched. Trivial boosts to subtle stab and crit chain skills, the latter of which are already going to be used as part of any competent burg's rotation when up, won't leave for "creativity" with respect to rotation tweaks.

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Originally Posted by Happychappy

Which dps classes are those? Champ? Beorning? or the obvious Hunter and RK?, that probably have too much dps and need a nerf anyway.

You are a support class. The Beorning is a dps support and does less dps than a burglar. But a Beorning does not struggle to kill. Just lower the top dps (Hunter and RK mostly) down closer to the other classes and adjust content.

Healing as been nerfed down considerably, now its time the dps got nerfed down somewhat. Would certainly help pvmp.

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I'm sorry we are not a support class anymore 2 of our 3 trees are dps they just don't work like they should. Our "Support" line is only used in a 12 man raid and that is the only place it is ever used or can even function.

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Originally Posted by luckygirl1

Lets look at a scenario...."TG Tier 3 5/6 need dps"....a hunter and a burg send you a tell. Which would you choose?

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I agree burglar isn't anywhere as potent it needs to be..same with champion.

However, in the 5/6 example, specifically for t3 TG, iw ould take burglar and ask for Blue line with deep yellow over the hunter. Reasoning:
-TG T3 spirits cannot be interrupted, only FM'd. Burglars can do that with Exploit opening, and have a 20% to do that with Exposed throat from blue which can be used roughly once every 5-8 seconds.
-HIPS is useful for skipping some trash.

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Originally Posted by Daniyel

I agree burglar isn't anywhere as potent it needs to be..same with champion.

However, in the 5/6 example, specifically for t3 TG, iw ould take burglar and ask for Blue line with deep yellow over the hunter. Reasoning:
-TG T3 spirits cannot be interrupted, only FM'd. Burglars can do that with Exploit opening, and have a 20% to do that with Exposed throat from blue which can be used roughly once every 5-8 seconds.
-HIPS is useful for skipping some trash.

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Actually, you can use a Guardian for the FM because Guardian is actually better at FM than Burglar which is absurd. HIPS can be useful for the first dwarfes group but after that, any Burglar in any spec will just slow down the group and Hunter will be better than Burglar.

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Originally Posted by Daniyel

I agree burglar isn't anywhere as potent it needs to be..same with champion.

However, in the 5/6 example, specifically for t3 TG, iw ould take burglar and ask for Blue line with deep yellow over the hunter. Reasoning:
-TG T3 spirits cannot be interrupted, only FM'd. Burglars can do that with Exploit opening, and have a 20% to do that with Exposed throat from blue which can be used roughly once every 5-8 seconds.
-HIPS is useful for skipping some trash.

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If you can find any burg who plays that unintended broken spec.. but I guess its the only way for us to get a invite hey cuz we can break the game and not do dps or have fun.

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Originally Posted by Daniyel

I agree burglar isn't anywhere as potent it needs to be..same with champion.

However, in the 5/6 example, specifically for t3 TG, iw ould take burglar and ask for Blue line with deep yellow over the hunter. Reasoning:
-TG T3 spirits cannot be interrupted, only FM'd. Burglars can do that with Exploit opening, and have a 20% to do that with Exposed throat from blue which can be used roughly once every 5-8 seconds.
-HIPS is useful for skipping some trash.

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As already said, a guardian is better at FMs than the burglar, LM pets also have a chance to open it if the guard gets stunned and LMs provide much greater utility than burglars... and, what purpose does the burglar serve after the spirit trash is dealt with?

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Originally Posted by Hephburz-2

As already said, a guardian is better at FMs than the burglar, LM pets also have a chance to open it if the guard gets stunned and LMs provide much greater utility than burglars... and, what purpose does the burglar serve after the spirit trash is dealt with?

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Might as well mention it is completely doable without FM and burg to begin with, by simply dealing with one ghost at the time.

Well, those that hoped this was going to be a temporary bandaid to burglar utility , sorry it's not happening. But thank you nonetheless, it's something. We can only hope for the promised revamp to give us a proper meaning in (small) fellowships. Alas that our community is so divided, as we have some thinking we should be a full dps class, and others thinking we need aoe. I truly hope that the burglar becomes the heart of every fellowship again.

If red could just be our sneaky burst (solo/pvmp), blue our sustained dps with fellowship utility, and yellow our trickster: debuff, cc, moderate healing and moderate damage.
Wasn't that the original intention?

Red burst is already in a good shape in my opinion. It's blue and yellow that are in worse state.