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I have played Lotro almost since launch, and I love this game. But we all know its one unsub away from being discontinued, and Im afraid the amazon tv-serie is going to be the haybale that broke the camels back.
Does anyone else have any feelings about this?
Why would a TV series be the end of Lotro?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daeborn
Do you think folks will stop playing Lotro, because they would rather watch a streaming TV show?
I don't follow your reasoning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boraxxe
Oh, sorry, I cut the text short.
I meant the trainwreck of the show will be the death of the lotr IP.
Like remember how popular Game of Thrones game before that crashed. Now noone will even talk about GOT.
This is that the serie will bring fron S1E1.
While I understand a concern over where the new Amazon series will go off-track, I don't think that will diminish the love of Tolkien's works. I don't believe GOT is a valid comparison. Most people know GOT only from the HBO series. The numbers who have actually read the books (and related works by Martin) are not even remotely comparable to the numbers who have read Tolkien and been drawn into his world. This Amazon series will not be the first mess made of Tolkien's works- think of the extended version of The Hobbit!Quote:
Originally Posted by Daeborn
My hope is that ensuing generations still come to love Middle-Earth and that the parents and grandparents out there share this world with them. I could not see that happening with GOT no matter how much you liked the book series (which he STILL has not finished!!)
I hope you are right, SirQuote:
Originally Posted by Reaboj
We”ll be ok. I’ve been hearing that this game is one step away from being shut down for 15 years now, and we’re still here.
Lotro has been around for 15 years and is showing no sign of going away any time soon, plus great changes are coming soon with update 33.
As for the TV series it won't kill the LOTR IP, and so far we've only seen posters and teaser of show so cannot say it will be trainwreck yet, also have to remember the series is based on Tolkien's writings rather than a full novel, the Second Age is all over the place and there really is no final or full story of it, so Amazon has to make up a lot and chose what version of the story to use in places, as they have little to work with, I have no concerns as its based on unfinished works you have to change and make up a lot to work as film.
The trailers they show promises nothing but a shhite-show.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontin_Finnberry
And how they have handled the fans uproar is nothing short but mindboggling.
Well it is a good job that you aren't the script writer and frankly that is a good start... if you have to mask your profanity because of the filter it is generally good practice to think again about what you're trying to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daeborn
Whether the new Amazon series is a hit or not depends firmly on some already known variables. Many of which are that there is a core of Tolkien fans that have read all the books and if you possess a minds eye, they have already built this world in that place and no Jackson film or Amazon tv series is going to ever be good enough for those fans.
However, there are Millions of younger people (not exclusively) that thrive on the visual age and for them Jackson and this new series may be their first foray into the world of Tolkien. Does that make it a bad thing? No, not at all. I know lots of Lotro players who played the game knowing nothing about Lord of the Rings and have since had that special once in a life time moment of reading it for themselves because of this interpretation of the stories....
and if you think that Amazon having to make up most of the content for the second age is nonsense, then think again.. The second age is very sparse of real day to day content but the Third age, especially the age that Lotro resides in is full and rounded, yet Lotro story tellers have had to create narrative to make their version of Tolkiens writing work.. Have you even run Volume one of the epic story?
Stating that Lotro is one unsub away from being discontinued just frankly makes me think that you are trying to cause a reaction... did your main posting account get banned or limited by any chance?
Having watched the trailer, the CGI alone made me uninterested in the show. Green room all around these days.
As for the possible IP damage, that's not going to happen, Middle-earth is too detailed a creation with dates, appendixes etc. It's also a finished story as far as the main theme of fight against evil goes so whatever happens in the series shouldn't have the impact of GoT or the infamous Star Wars sequels.
Can a badly made movie/series turn someone off from reading the book/comic or enjoying a franchise? Sure but that's down to personal taste/expectations.
As the very old joke about two rats at the garbage dump nibbling on film reel goes - "The book was better".
Err... there's more to it than that, even from what little we've seen already. And none of it good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontin_Finnberry
- all Amazon have for the Second Age is the stuff from the Appendices, which is little more than bullet points and they're not even sticking to those
- they're compressing the bulk of the Second Age down so it'll all be happening in rapid succession, which will inevitably mangle it
- they're filling in the gaps with generic fantasy and callbacks, like having hobbits wandering around the west, and having Rohirrim-alikes long, long before that would make sense
- they're distorting existing characters to suit their version
It's not that things need to be changed and made up for a screen production, we all know that and we've seen that before, it's *what* they're changing and making up and how they're going about it that'll be the problem.
Easy to have no concerns when you're so vague about things to start with...
Most people won't care about any of that. if it is a good show, no one will care about the minute details, except the strict book reading fans. to tear the whole show apart as being worthless, based on a 30 second commerical spot, seems crazy to me. "oh no they aren't wearing a helmet I like. so the show is ruined" seems so short sighted to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
I won't be judging the whole show by the intro trailer, and I hated the writings of tolkien, its long winded, and in need of editing down half of it. people like me will like the show if it is entertaining, and I won't care about trying to hold it account to the story. the only people who are hating on this show, are unrealistic expecting to be fully satisfied in the story line.
shows are embellished all the time. the ending of Jaws the book is way different then Jaws the movie, and I for one am grateful for that. Jaws the movie a huge success.
People keep comparing it to amazons rendition of wheel of time on how they totally ruined that. I have not read those books , but started watching that show, based on everybody saying how terrible they did, and I am absolutely enjoying that show.
I would take most of peoples critique of the show more seriously, AFTER the show has debuted. not based on the trailer. Right now all the doomsayers trashing the show, I laugh inside at you all judging a book by the cover.
Maybe it might be better if the thing they'd be foraying into would be "the world of Tolkien" rather than what they'll be getting with that series, which by the look of things will basically be a giant fanfic with vaguely Tolkien-sounding things going on and with the characters changed wholesale to suit their narrative (complete with modern tropes, including politics). You can already see the writers of this thing thinking in stereotypes, e.g. Galadriel as 'modern' strong female character *must* apparently be angry and combative and do the Warrior Princess thing. (Or be seen in perilous situations like she's a pointy-eared Lara Croft, or go around in armour like she's Joan of Arc, as if such blatant stereotyping is all they know how to write). And of course we can't have Elrond being competition for Strong Female Lead so by the look of things he's been upstaged; he's apparently "politically ambitious" rather than being a bold young captain in Gil-galad's service so their character traits appear to have been swapped (it was Galadriel who was ambitious!).Quote:
Originally Posted by TearMaker
The LOTR movies were a very creditable introduction to Tolkien for the mass audience. The Hobbit movies less so, falling victim to bloat, forced tie-ins to the LOTR movies, bad writing, D&Dish fantasy tropes and way too much bad, 'floaty' CGI but still, they had their moments. But the Amazon series seems like more of a generic fantasy series being passed off as Tolkien than anything else and hence likely won't give a good impression at all.
So let's see if I've got this straight- Tolkien was TL,DR for you (and you seem to prefer visual media over anything as troublesome as reading and using your imagination) but somehow actual fans of Tolkien's work are in the wrong for setting the bar higher than you do? And you'd sooner strawman what they've been saying and call it 'hating' rather than be honest? Classy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seglord
If you really wanted to get my goat you should have said you liked the live action Cowboy Beebop :rolleyes:
I read it all, I said I don't like tolkiens writing, not his story. spending 4 pages on what the southern hill looked like with its blades of grass with dew drops, trees of golden hues, with reds, and greens, and the wispering sounds of wind, ..... 3 pages later, then I turned to the west and the hill over there looked like .......... threee more pages later, I found my self saying can we finally get to rivendell ffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
I said he is wordy, not tldr, that is on you,
and yes I believe a lot of people all over the internet are, summing up the whole amazon show, based on a few seconds of trailer , seemingly hating it before it even comes out. hatefull is appropriate.
also you seem to think this is being made for tolkien fans? nowhere near the market that amazon would be shooting for
not only did i not like the live action cowboy bebop , I cant stand the anime either. its childish. lol
I think the above poster answered the OP's question the best here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontin_Finnberry
As for me, I'll check the show out. If I don't like it fine, If I do like it for entertainment's value that's fine too. And yes I will be picking it apart at the same time.
I'm sure the TV series will be like LOTRO or the films, I can tell it's Middle Earth, some "off menu" changes I will really like, some I wont but most importantly do I enjoy it, in its own right? If I do I'll watch it if I don't I won't and it will have no impact on me reading the books, playing lotro or watching the films. Perfect example, the Hobbit films, I thought were awful, watched once never again did they make me change how I feel about lotro, lotr books or lotr films, nope.
You hated it, you said. But in any case LOTR isn't an especially long work by modern standards (even less so when considering it was originally written and published as a trilogy). Not when we've got monster series like The Malazan Book of the Fallen around (well over 7000 pages!).Quote:
Originally Posted by Seglord
Tolkien doesn't even go on all that much. Mervyn Peake could write entire chapters of description. And it's just as well you never tried reading WoT because Jordan padded that to hell and back, that was one of the reasons I set that aside and never looked back.
And how long does it needs to be, when there are things that seem 'off' straight away? We didn't have this with the trailer for the first Hobbit movie, other than concerns about them making it a trilogy. But if things stand out in a fifty-second teaser trailer which should show something off to best advantage, that's hardly encouraging. For example, sure, let's all go climbing icy mountains in plate armour, that's a perfectly normal thing to do and doesn't look at all like Stupid Fantasy. (And that particular clip lasts just a few seconds!)Quote:
and yes I believe a lot of people all over the internet are, summing up the whole amazon show, based on a few seconds of trailer , seemingly hating it before it even comes out. hatefull is appropriate.
Just because you're oblivious doesn't mean everybody should be, or is 'hateful' for picking up on things that pass you by. More likely you just have a really low bar when it comes to fantasy. (Especially if you watched WoT and didn't bat an eyelid).
I've never seen anything turn out well when the people making it make a point of scorning the fans straight off the bat. Huge red flag.Quote:
also you seem to think this is being made for tolkien fans? nowhere near the market that amazon would be shooting for
Err... yeah? Tongue in cheek, has a certain style and good fun, that's all an anime like that needs to be. Point is, the fate of the live action adaptation is what can happen when you try to adapt something and don't get what people liked about the original. Critically panned and cancelled all but instantly, in htat particular case.Quote:
not only did i not like the live action cowboy bebop , I cant stand the anime either. its childish. lol
Oh dear Rad is Mad !!
I really don't think that you can read all of that from a trailer with absolutely zero context. And yes, as my post above states, this isn't going to be for the hardcore reader who expects everything to be as it would if Tolkien himself were here. (I mean if he was - nothing would ever have gotten made as it would have been in an endless cycle of re-writes)
This is to capitalise on the IP but to bring something more current for todays TV viewing audience. If they butcher major back stories I am sure that it will fail utterly and I would hope that they have learned their lesson in that regards but that doesn't mean that even if the back story is completely intact that you are going to enjoy anything of the stories they will create because it isn't written by Tolkien.
I really find it amusing though that there are zealots (and I also like things to follow the books as well) who pan everything and then run around in a made up world filled out with myriads of Lore breaking immersion such as Rune Keepers and Beornings who run around everywhere and you mention hobbits running around the west, well what about the scores of hobbits fighting Balrogs and defeating Mumakil !! Don't get me started on Brawlers but the point is that if you scoff at fan fiction, then why are you engaged in playing in possibly the most extensive fan fiction based on Tolkien's work? Because this is filled with nonsense but we accept them to be able to inhabit this world.
Others, possibly not you or I, will undoubtedly enjoy whatever this new series brings and it could also get some folks reading the original texts and also bring in some cash to this game so that it can go on fleshing out the world... now is that really such a bad thing?
I think you just have to see them as two sides to the same coin.... The Prof and Christopher Tolkien writings on one side and all the fan fiction like the movies and tv series and MMO game are on the other side. We know you're always going to shout heads in a coin toss and so would I, but denying that tails can be a possible outcome doesn't achieve anything because some folks will want Tails and Tails only. It's just a fact of life.
And that'd be because there's a bit more information going around than is in the trailer. Also, don't try to misrepresent everyone who has the slightest concern about an adaptation as being 'hardcore', 'strict' or other such malarkey.Quote:
Originally Posted by TearMaker
Oh really. So you're saying that the TV viewing audience couldn't get behind a strong female character unless she's going around wearing armour and fighting? Is it 'current' that strong female characters all seem to fall into that stereotype nowadays? And that what should be a strong male character (Elrond) appears to be being having his thunder stolen in favour of Galadriel? We've seen her described as 'angry' and 'full of piss and vinegar', whereas this character was originally imagined as a powerful Elvish Lady who'd studied under Melian the Maia, should be married and with a young daughter,by the time we're talking about, and who could probably cow most people just by giving them a hard look. Almost as if the writers don't give a damn about the actual character and just need a cardboard cutout of a female lead to go be angry at people and fight Orcs, Trolls or whatever.Quote:
This is to capitalise on the IP but to bring something more current for todays TV viewing audience. If they butcher major back stories I am sure that it will fail utterly and I would hope that they have learned their lesson in that regards but that doesn't mean that even if the back story is completely intact that you are going to enjoy anything of the stories they will create because it isn't written by Tolkien.
So the game's even more daft when it comes to hobbits (and I've said so myself before) and has obvious gaming tropes like powerful mages and shape-shifters turning up all over the place. But it's a game, and that's what the mass audience wants from a game. The bar is a lot lower, and we have to like that or lump it. How does that make a TV series look better, when we already know the bar can be set an awful lot higher for that? Stick to the topic, you're engaging in whataboutism there.Quote:
I really find it amusing though that there are zealots (and I also like things to follow the books as well) who pan everything and then run around in a made up world filled out with myriads of Lore breaking immersion such as Rune Keepers and Beornings who run around everywhere and you mention hobbits running around the west, well what about the scores of hobbits fighting Balrogs and defeating Mumakil !! Don't get me started on Brawlers but the point is that if you scoff at fan fiction, then why are you engaged in playing in possibly the most extensive fan fiction based on Tolkien's work? Because this is filled with nonsense but we accept them to be able to inhabit this world.
When I dismiss something as fanfic it's alluding to the sort of bad writing that give the genre its generally poor rep. Like in this case, shoehorning Galadriel into the role of action hero (and never mind her prior characterisation or back-story).
Or it could be bad enough that it puts a dent in the IP's rep and puts people off it.Quote:
Others, possibly not you or I, will undoubtedly enjoy whatever this new series brings and it could also get some folks reading the original texts and also bring in some cash to this game so that it can go on fleshing out the world... now is that really such a bad thing?
IYou're barking up the wrong tree there because I've said often enough that I liked the LOTR movies (and in this very thread, at that). It's not that you can't find people that fanatical about the books but I'm not one of them. I don't call everything else fanfic, just things where the writing seems dodgy in some way as if it were just fanfic rather than professionally written.Quote:
think you just have to see them as two sides to the same coin.... The Prof and Christopher Tolkien writings on one side and all the fan fiction like the movies and tv series and MMO game are on the other side.
I have to agree with you on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by TearMaker
I'm not expecting the new series to fall in strict line with LotR Lore. The movies didn't, this game doesn't and I doubt very much that a TV script based on the small amount of writing available will either. It won't affect how I feel about this game. This game doesn't affect how I feel about the movies. And the movies don't affect how I feel about the books. They all have their own lives and they are all very different. The series aside, as it's not out yet, I do not wish any of them non existent. I enjoyed the movies, for what they were. They were different, yes, but entertaining, as movies in their own right never-the-less. I do re-watch them from time to time. This game, with all the things you mention, is entertaining, as a game, in it's own right. I still play it, after ten years. The TV series will be another something else, that people will either enjoy for what they are - TV shows, or not. I'm not big on any form of TV to be honest. I enjoy a documentary or a good film, but as far as TV shows go, I can count the series I've watched on one hand. Will one based in Middle Earth be added to my little list? Maybe, but maybe not. I'll know by the end of the first episode.
Nobody is. But there's the question of how much genuine continuity there will be between this series and Tolkien's work, in much the same way that other recent adaptations of popular IPs have played fast and loose with the originals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnenna
e.g. if this series was to Tolkien as, say, Star Trek Discovery is to Star Trek in general then that would be unfortunate. Like how STD started out, supposedly in the TOS continuity but some ten years earlier, and proceeded to completely retcon a ton of stuff about the Klingons, invent a 'magic' go-anywhere 'Spore Drive' based on transdimensional fungus of all things, break with all previous ST storytelling by having a specific lead character (who's also a Mary Sue) rather than an ensemble cast, retconning said Mary Sue into Spock's family (very much the sort of thing you see in fanfic!), and other such stuff including some wildly inconsistent technologies and ship design details (some of which reached Galaxy Quest levels of sheer pointless silliness). The list of continuity problems is lengthy; I'm not even a Trekkie but it made me facepalm, like I knew it was bad but it was way worse than I'd imagined.
So that's an example of what can happen when people try to 'modernise' an IP and have no respect for the original. A mess.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
I agree with you about the upcoming series, or what we saw so far of it at least. I think I have taken my worst wound with portrayal of Lady Galadriel, though found myself annoyed with quite a few things. You may remember, and others also, that I'm really lore flexible (in the game and movies wise), and I was so excited to hear about new adaptation, yet (to put it simply) trouble is nothing I saw so far speaks Tolkien to me, bar character names.
Oh man, as a Trekkie, don't even get me started on STD. I don't believe in hijacking threads, so I'm gonna stop right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU
Ma'am (thank you) :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Daeborn