Friendly enemies

We do not know where the next part of the storyline is taking us, after a year long break of it, filling in some gaps. I personaly think that the nex part of the story will take us to the former lands of the enemy, like Rhûn, Harad, Khand or Umbar (and even if not the next storyline, at some point it probably will). I was wondering if we go there we could meet some friendly faces along the way, since we did make some friends among the people in those lands. The ones I can think of are Jajax and his brother from Umbar, Jarl Gurthilm one of the Variags of Khand, or the Haradrim prisoners we meet and help at Aelin Veren.

I was wondering, are there any more, who did I forget? And are there any friendly Easterlings (besides the refugees, who ww probably not see in Rhûn, since they fled the area)?

Plus some. Aside from some Zhelruka dwarves we're yet to see, not sure if friendly though. Take a look: https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...-Up-Eventually

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Aside from some Zhelruka dwarves we're yet to see, not sure if friendly though.

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When we go east I expect to meet all the eastern dwarves, not just the Zhelruka. That said, do we know of any individual Zhelruka we meet that later returns east. I thought all stayed west because they were afraid of a great danger in the east.

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Originally Posted by Pompejus

I thought all stayed west because they were afraid of a great danger in the east.

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It's not exactly clear but based on what we know 1) We've only met the current Prince, not King 2) there are some bits of dialogues in Ered Mithrin where they mention their previous King Vékun II died in the cataclysm (of some kind, with "things worse than dragons") and got replaced by King Ótek VII, the brother of Prince Ingor so... where is the King if not East? I guess he remained East, for some reason

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Plus some. Aside from some Zhelruka dwarves we're yet to see, not sure if friendly though. Take a look: https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...-Up-Eventually

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No more dwarves!

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Originally Posted by Froyo_K_Baggins

No more dwarves!

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???

Calm down?

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Originally Posted by Froyo_K_Baggins

No more dwarves!

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Although the main dwarf story line is over, I do expect to see the 4 eastern dwarf tribes when we go east/south or when we finaly visit Ered Luin. That said, I suspect the focus will be mostly on men (men as in humans, not males, obviously including women). I probably think visiting some dwarf holds would be welcome after visiting yet another human town.

Think we go to Nurn, and from there to Rhûn and Khand. Hope we seeing Throkhâr first tho. This could be tying into what Borangos is searching for under Mount Doom, and Nurn could play a part in that.

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Originally Posted by Hierona

Hope we seeing Throkhâr first tho. This could be tying into what Borangos is searching for under Mount Doom, and Nurn could play a part in that.

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Not even the wise can predict what's up with THAT... If Borangos and Throkhâr plot threads are connected (somehow?) I would very much love to know the difference between Nameless and "earthly" subtype of Ancient Evils that actually used to walk on Arda, so no just beneath it (like Balrogs, Rogmul etc). Obviously, they use the same "pathways" (the Void) or at least the Nameless bosses do, so probably that's how they run into each other - but the weird Rogmul/Nameless alliance in Moria, for example, still confuses me (or The Ever-seer doing the Balrog's bidding, although here he might be just an abomination of Morgoth and only using Nameless creatures for his ends, kind of like a shaman... that he is, so that's fitting). Granted, Morgoth bred all sorts of monsters in Utumno and Angband, many of which never saw the light of day, but I doubt Nameless creatures belong to the same category as his cohorts (gaunt-men, spirits, corrupted maia, weights, the usual ancient evils) First, if he had legions of these screeching monstrosities he would simply unleash them upon Arda, second, it is said "Sauron knew them not" about the Nameless so... if Sauron knows them not, they gotta be pretty "alien" to the bad guys of Middle-earth. World-eaters? Throkhâr wants to consume the world? Also, there is a mother too, not just the lord? Very eldritch

This all sounds very cool and interesting, and yes, I can't wait, but I would still rather see the conclusion to actual Tolkien story/book timeline before we get to apocalyptic alien threats greater than Sauron that only our character can stop. Throkhâr sounds like it could be this great final arc for the game, long in the making, whenever that might be. Maybe he and some of his pawns (some unintentionally perhaps) could have their gentle influence being seen/revealed in some of the events around the map, maybe we eventually see a glimpse or just one of the forms of the mighty Throkhâr in a storied confrontation of sheer horror, but otherwise it's all saved for the last (the actual big event when he needs to be beaten)

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Originally Posted by TesalionLortus

Not even the wise can predict what's up with THAT... If Borangos and Throkhâr plot threads are connected (somehow?) I would very much love to know the difference between Nameless and "earthly" subtype of Ancient Evils that actually used to walk on Arda, so no just beneath it (like Balrogs, Rogmul etc). Obviously, they use the same "pathways" (the Void) or at least the Nameless bosses do, so probably that's how they run into each other - but the weird Rogmul/Nameless alliance in Moria, for example, still confuses me (or The Ever-seer doing the Balrog's bidding, although here he might be just an abomination of Morgoth and only using Nameless creatures for his ends, kind of like a shaman... that he is, so that's fitting). Granted, Morgoth bred all sorts of monsters in Utumno and Angband, many of which never saw the light of day, but I doubt Nameless creatures belong to the same category as his cohorts (gaunt-men, spirits, corrupted maia, weights, the usual ancient evils) First, if he had legions of these screeching monstrosities he would simply unleash them upon Arda, second, it is said "Sauron knew them not" about the Nameless so... if Sauron knows them not, they gotta be pretty "alien" to the bad guys of Middle-earth. World-eaters? Throkhâr wants to consume the world? Also, there is a mother too, not just the lord? Very eldritch

This all sounds very cool and interesting, and yes, I can't wait, but I would still rather see the conclusion to actual Tolkien story/book timeline before we get to apocalyptic alien threats greater than Sauron that only our character can stop. Throkhâr sounds like it could be this great final arc for the game, long in the making, whenever that might be. Maybe he and some of his pawns (some unintentionally perhaps) could have their gentle influence being seen/revealed in some of the events around the map, maybe we eventually see a glimpse or just one of the forms of the mighty Throkhâr in a storied confrontation of sheer horror, but otherwise it's all saved for the last (the actual big event when he needs to be beaten)

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All I have are theories, but I absolutely agree with you . . . that Throkhâr I think is an amazing possibility and has a lot of potential.

Here's my current.... theory about it. We know in the lore that Morgoth marred Arda permanently, thus "Arda Marred," and we have these Nameless things gnawing at the roots of the earth. So it's sounding like Throkhâr might be yet another Maia follower of Morgoth . . . perhaps one whose power was the result of Morgoth marring Arda, way back when in the earlier parts of "The Silmarillion."

We do have Nameless appear not only in the Foundations of Stone but in a few other unexpected places that seem connected:

A- We actually encounter above-ground Nameless beneath the Dawnless Day in Taur Druadan in the roots of the rear of Mindolluin, along with a World-Eater we have to destroy and an inner cave we have to collapse- out in the quarry near Nardol.

B- The second time we encounter Nameless who are "too close to the earth for comfort" is in the Iron Hills . . . they start coming up mine-shafts toward broad daylight all across the Ironfold . . . and we learn they are really coming from the Howling Pit beneath Jarnfast. We also know there were earthquakes rocking the region around the time the Ring is destroyed, especially Jarnfast - which might indeed hint that Borangos and Throkhâr are connected. That this mysterious devastation in Rhûn happens at the same time cannot be a coincidence!!!

C- Then we have the Wracking-Hall in Minas Morgul, which is perhaps the most mysterious connection we've encountered. It's implied there's a portal of some sort Gothmog's Sorcerers were working on toward "the realm of the Nameless," and we encounter these Sorcs trying to mind-control them; the interior of the hall, on the top tier of Minas Morgul, has that weird fungai we encountered in the Foundations of Stone.

D- Of course, in the longer storyline leading up to the opening of the Chamber of Shadows instance with Throkhâr's servant pretending to be Durin, we found there are all these hidden Dwarven looking "shrines" all over the place with webs of shadow, including in the caves beneath Imlad Morgul as accessed via Lhingris . . .

E- One of the Gundabad missions is a "shrine to Throkhâr," another portal to the Nameless world somewhere in its depths.

F- Naturally, we also can't forget the earlier stuff in Volume II, where the Elves believed Gwaithnor could still return from whatever hidden void or realm he comes from (*and I'm not convinced it's the same "Void" that Morgoth was cast into at the end of the FA... because you can't come back from that).

So... lots of neat stuff in the works, tons of hints dropped....

TBH: I hear you on ending Tolkien's storyline, but that might actually be even less viable here. This is a problem I simply cannot imagine Gandalf the White leaving a bunch of adventurers to handle on their own... it sounds like Gandalf, who had only begun to discover the Nameless while preoccupied with the Balrog in Moria... might have some unfinished business. I'd feel better if Gandalf was involved somehow, lore-wise, in helping to "mend this problem"; but still I hear you.

The other thing is chronology. Frodo gets two years to rest in the Shire - or try and fail to - before sailing West. Throkhâr's not going to wait that long - I don't think so - LOL :D

Cheers! :D

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Originally Posted by Phantion

We know in the lore that Morgoth marred Arda permanently, thus "Arda Marred," and we have these Nameless things gnawing at the roots of the earth. So it's sounding like Throkhâr might be yet another Maia follower of Morgoth . . . perhaps one whose power was the result of Morgoth marring Arda, way back when in the earlier parts of "The Silmarillion."

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This does sound like maybe Nameless might have something to do with it (they would be great for devouring mountains, for example!) but weren't Maiar created near the very beginning of time? (so Sauron/Mairon). But the text says "Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he." So it would sound like the Nameless weren't created by Morgoth and are more akin to Ungoliant, something unfamiliar even to Morgoth and the Valars. Although that's still a reasonable theory: that perhaps Morgoth allied with them at some point and tried to use them to his advantage, sort of like when he allied with Ungoliant. But that would in fact put Throkhar into an entirely different category, an "alien" one - to Middle-earth and Arda and - perhaps - Ea itself.

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Originally Posted by Phantion

We do have Nameless appear not only in the Foundations of Stone but in a few other unexpected places that seem connected

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It does sound like Throkhar's upcoming awakening is what triggers all these events, maybe Sauron's fall was a powerful enough "shockwave" (of some kind, or maybe something else) to cause that. Don't forget the Fall of Iron Garrison - those were clearly orcs who were forced to retreat from the deepest crevices they were driven into by the dwarves. Why? Because the Nameless and unknown things emerged all of a sudden, and there was even a hint towards it in - at least - one of the aftermath dialogues, though I don't recall the exact text and whether they mentioned nameless things directly or just covertly. Who knows, perhaps even Gwaithnor was part of this resurgence? This guy. Always makes me wonder what kind of arrangement balrogs (and their lesser servants) and these nameless, earth gnawing creatures have, maybe they're like Maia lost in the "other, lesser void" who decided to serve Throkhar as lieutenants in exchange for their lives ?

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Originally Posted by Phantion

C- Then we have the Wracking-Hall in Minas Morgul, which is perhaps the most mysterious connection we've encountered. It's implied there's a portal of some sort Gothmog's Sorcerers were working on toward "the realm of the Nameless," and we encounter these Sorcs trying to mind-control them; the interior of the hall, on the top tier of Minas Morgul, has that weird fungai we encountered in the Foundations of Stone.

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Almost forgot about it, yeah. Portal to "realm of the nameless" they called it. Also, the Chamber of Shadows feels a bit like it's a different dimension too, I don't believe it's supposed to be realistic representation of an actual dwarven space underground but more like "Nameless reality" leeching into the physical chamber that's placed in Arda. Sort of. And perhaps that's only possible, that kind of connection, because maybe there is something we don't know about what Durin discovered when he first dwelled in Moria and... waged wars against Nameless, apparently. Like, he needed to know A LOT, considering he managed to imprison Shadowed King with these stones...

I think it's not unreasonable there might have been more to the Darkness that's been there before the creation of Ea/Arda or that there are actually different layers to what we know as "the Void" (in LOTRO at the very least). Or maybe the lesser "voids" are like the complex tunnels, layers upon layers but still part of Ea, that actually lead to the actual "Void" beyond the Walls of the World. We've seen void portals used in some of the tombs and that's where the fell spirits came from, fallen Maia and their servants used them too, and of course Nameless, it's like their main means of manifestation. Such layers might play a role in afterlife, so like purgatory or punishment, and a place where souls with unfinished business end up (assuming they don't cling directly to Middle-earth, like some of the shades do). Maybe some unlucky Ainur haven't even made it originally and fell behind, somewhere "in-between" at the fringes of Ea, and turned into who knows what. Maybe some servants of Morgoth retreated or were driven into such "corridors" after Morgoth's defeat (or their own defeat but managed to survive, at the cost of leaving Arda). Nameless Realm might be somewhere "on the other side" of such layers within Arda or Ea, an oddity of some kind, a discord, or perhaps it's part of The Void beyond the world of Ea. Lots of possibilities! Technically, they don't have the rights to some of these things but... meh, don't use the problematic names and go wild, I doubt anyone would say "no" to them... because this entire concept is unclear and convoluted enough as it is in the original works, so identifying license breaches is hardly possible here. LOL. (Like, they might as well sue Square Enix for Kingdom Heart's mythology and say "this universe sounds like Tolkien's Void and machinations of Ea!")

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Originally Posted by Phantion

TBH: I hear you on ending Tolkien's storyline, but that might actually be even less viable here. This is a problem I simply cannot imagine Gandalf the White leaving a bunch of adventurers to handle on their own... it sounds like Gandalf, who had only begun to discover the Nameless while preoccupied with the Balrog in Moria... might have some unfinished business. I'd feel better if Gandalf was involved somehow, lore-wise, in helping to "mend this problem"; but still I hear you.

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Gandalf's arc seems to be focused on what's left of Mordor - he didn't give any thought towards Hrimil, apparently, confident to leave it to you/the dwarves - and what it feels like it's like maybe Gandalf is indeed "preparing" for his "retreat" from the matters of Middle-earth. He is like more open to entrust bigger and bigger things to the PC, without involving himself directly, resigned to the role of the scholar behind the desk (or starring at balrog statues). Anyway, I don't think he knows a lot more about the Nameless than Sauron did. Perhaps he knows something but nothing of great significance. Maybe others who were busy - doing who knows what - might actually know more, for reasons, like Blue Wizards? So would be cool to see other Wizards involved, it's not like Gandalf needs to be this sole hero here, so I wouldn't mind if he (kind of) "retired"

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Originally Posted by Phantion

The other thing is chronology. Frodo gets two years to rest in the Shire - or try and fail to - before sailing West. Throkhâr's not going to wait that long - I don't think so - LOL :D

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Oh, how so? The awakening of a titan can easily take like a few years or decades, that's not a far-fetched mythos concept. Especially that he is like, from someplace else, who knows from where, maybe between dimensions of Ea, but someplace! So not really an issue and who knows how reality and time work... someplace