Instanced PvP

Amidst the newfound awesome and continued communication between devs and the playerbase I feel that this topic is worth talking about.
I want to present an idea that has been offered in the past and has worked extremely well in other games: Instanced PvP.

First off, something that has always existed in the moors are 1v1 circles, proof that some players want to test their mettle against other players in settings other than chance interactions in the open world. However, as of now there is no system conducive to improving or maintaining these types of PvP interactions.

Second, we already have a very under used but present system in the game which allows for 1v1 PvP within a faction: Sparring.

Third, the current system we have in the moors is in many senses great. It is unique, it feels dynamic, and when it works it is extremely satisfying. However adding in a system that could function alongside the moors as well as prop up times when the moors suffer due to low pop hours would not hurt the moors but instead aid its popularity.

My suggestion is some sort of instancing system which places 1v1, 2v2, and 3v3 players into PvP situations either by random matchmaking or through grouped matchmaking. Each fight would be to the death and would reward some sort of currency similar but unrelated to the current rank system (allegiances, the return of stars on frames please, a comms reward track, or weekly progress for reward boxes.)

What benefits would this create that are not already possible in the base game?

1. Faction vs Faction organized 1v1 and small group fighting. This is an nearly completely unexplored side of PvP in lotro and could give way to fun and balanced fights we are unable to access due to limiting sparring to 1v1 and having no avenue for organized group fights without cross faction interaction and connections.

2. An oppurtuinity to incorporate a new system of ranking or rating that could incentivize higher rank players to continue to play and improve.

3. Foster a focus on small group play and individual performance instead of large group encounters in which smaller actions matter less.

4. Remove 1v1 circles thus lowering the number of active players in the moors at a time in order to alleviate server stress. (note: the players in 1v1 circles are already not taking part in action elsewhere so this would not hinder the action present.)

5. Create a new system for PvP that could demystify the moors for players who feel that it is unapproachable.

It has certainly been mentioned before.

I cannot say, yes. I cannot say, no.

I think for this to be a worthwhile effort we would need two things:

1) Cross-server capabilities, even if it means temporarily transferring to a temporary server for instanced PvP. The population simply doesn't exist to support instanced PvP if we are limited to a single server, especially for those on servers where PvMP is not happening much.

2) There would need to be incentives to stay and fight in the moors. For example, if you can rank and comm farm faster in instanced PvP than in open world, action in the moors will simply die out.

Overall love the idea of instanced PvP and it's something I've wanted/asked for off and on over the last 15+ years....I just think the implementation needs to be done really thoughtfully because of the small and fragile population we have here.

I cannot see how this could be achieved without affecting numbers in the moors and basically killing off the Ettenmoors. Also, there would have to be zero worthwhile reward for instanced pvp because this would just once again empower the cheats even more than they already are.

Even the mooted "pvp skirmishes" would just allow much cheating unless it was cleverly implemented. And we all know when it comes to Pvmp - nothing is easy. Everything comes at a cost and loaded with problems. I guess one idea would be to just let monster players join a skirmish as a side battle therefore the Freeps would still have to complete the raid including all the bosses in order to gain any benefit. Simply beating a monster player in the skirmish would mean nothing unless the raid is complete. (I cannot see this scaling down to anything less than a 6 man unless there is virtually no reward for doing so)

It is difficult to get the right balance and I don't envy the devs if they try. But if you do try.... at least work on making it worthwhile but not open to exploiting. And also think hard about what this would do to the numbers in the moors. Maybe just have it available on a rotation like the festivals? Possibly between the current PVE festivals but definitely short 1 or 2 week bursts could bring in new blood also.

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Originally Posted by Strider5548

2) There would need to be incentives to stay and fight in the moors. For example, if you can rank and comm farm faster in instanced PvP than in open world, action in the moors will simply die out.

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^This. I also love the idea of instanced PvP but it's so hard to implement without murdering the moors. WoW had absolutely vibrant open world PvP for the first couple months of classic. Then battlegrounds came out and they were a much more efficient way of farming honor and open world PvP was a meme again. As you said it would have to be implemented as a cross server structure or populations would struggle due to the already fractured nature of the PvP population.

Or, very limited engagement with modest rewards.

After a few months of trying to get involved in PVP on Landy, "very limited engagement" is right. The Moors is a PVE zone with an occasional warg who pops out to gank you then disappears. I give up. Let's just close the Moors on regular servers, open a legendary server with Moors access and free transfers, and everyone can PVP there.

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Originally Posted by Strider5548

I think for this to be a worthwhile effort we would need two things:

1) Cross-server capabilities, even if it means temporarily transferring to a temporary server for instanced PvP. The population simply doesn't exist to support instanced PvP if we are limited to a single server, especially for those on servers where PvMP is not happening much.

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It has already been established by SSG that cross-server anything isn't possible due to the high chance of naming conflicts, and that is an engineering puzzle they just cannot solve, much like the issue with transfers between EU and NA worlds. The only thing we can hope for that is a far cry from anything being "cross server" is free transfers between servers instead of paying for them. Then people can transfer to where most PvP action is more easily and stay on that server for a while.

I would argue that transfers in general should really be 100% free nowadays, even if it is a VIP-only perk, but that is another story.

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2) There would need to be incentives to stay and fight in the moors. For example, if you can rank and comm farm faster in instanced PvP than in open world, action in the moors will simply die out.

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That is the case with anything in the game. The thing that gives the most rewards in the least time will always win out. It may just have to be a completely different type of reward, so you would have to do both to get both types of rewards.

the open pvmp zone of LOTRO is both the best and worst. best is you can fight anyway you want and any group comp you want , worst is sometimes an empty map and little action.

this games player base is too small and incestuous to have instanced pvmp. you'll end up seeing the same people over and over. end result would be splitting an already thin player base.

add in the lack of balance, the lack of any meaningfull pvmp rewards and no leaderboards or seasons shows LOTRO is not a pvp centric game and really cant be tbh.

lets fix the flat before we re-invent the wheel.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Or, very limited engagement with modest rewards.

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if I had to do this and make it limited i might do the following :- normal pvp earns some type of Zircon stone by barter of designed rewards. Then players enter a simplified instance with 'session play' type fixed characters (over time you can play all types on both sides for added fun ) . The instance is played through with a greater and lesser reward band based on the winning side. All players get something but the winning side get something specific to this instance that is possibly some type of consumable goodie or boost or selectable box. rinse and repeat with timers.

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Originally Posted by Strider5548

There would need to be incentives to stay and fight in the moors. For example, if you can rank and comm farm faster in instanced PvP than in open world, action in the moors will simply die out.

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I imagined a reward system completely aside from infamy/renown. Comms are already farmable and very useful in excess, I think that would be a completely reasonable place to start with rewards as it would not change the base desire to venture into the moors by oversaturating the most desirable currency: renown/infamy.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Or, very limited engagement with modest rewards.

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Thank you for the response! In my experience across multiple mmos, smaller group pvp content (WoW arenas, EVE online ship v ship, archeage, etc) is enjoyed by players who are willing to grind other aspects of the game to maximize their success and seek rewards that are more cosmetic and rare than functional. The most coveted rewards in WoW arenas are what? Mounts and Titles. I take modest to mean something with no actual impact on gameplay besides improving the way your character presents to those around you. A way to show that you have achieved some level of skill over others without an actual inherent advantage being present. Instanced PvP should not have rewards that force people into grinding it in order to succeed. Players should WANT to enter small scale battles to have fun and should take away rewards for continued success in what is otherwise a minigame.




Edit: To hammer home the point I am making about rewards, the most important reward in the current PvMP system (albeit it has been somewhat diluted by rank farming) is a completely cosmetic reward: the rank symbol next to your portrait for all to see. I recognize that there are benefits to higher ranks in the form of % based increases to morale/dmg/inc dmg but those are pretty negligible except morale. Further, you would be hard pressed to find someone playing a character in the moors simply for the rank % increases.