U36 - Upcoming Adjustment to Infamy/Renown

As we draw closer to the next update, we wanted to put an early update to infamy/renown and commendation earns, and how they are being adjusted.

Currently, there is a modifier that increases the amount of infamy/renown and commendations earned for the maximum contributors to a kill. This can inflate the infamy/renown value of a single kill by multiple players to a value over 2x what it should be. We are adjusting this, so that a kill, when contributed to by multiple players properly computes that value and distributes the total infamy/renown value of the target amongst all contributors.

We are also planning to adjust a bonus modifier to gains when killing players of higher ranks. The higher the rank, the more value the player/monster player is worth in terms of infamy/renown.

These changes will be available for testing in the first Bullroarer for Update 36, when it is posted.

"Orion are you allowed to elaborate on how points are currently calculated and what the proposed changes are in the math? (As in share the calculation)" - Urundus

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

As we draw closer to the next update, we wanted to put an early update to infamy/renown and commendation earns, and how they are being adjusted.

Currently, there is a modifier that increases the amount of infamy/renown and commendations earned for the maximum contributors to a kill. This can inflate the infamy/renown value of a single kill by multiple players to a value over 2x what it should be. We are adjusting this, so that a kill, when contributed to by multiple players properly computes that value and distributes the total infamy/renown value of the target amongst all contributors.

We are also planning to adjust a bonus modifier to gains when killing players of higher ranks. The higher the rank, the more value the player/monster player is worth in terms of infamy/renown.

These changes will be available for testing in the first Bullroarer for Update 36, when it is posted.

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Excellent news this will certainly help encourage smaller group play IMO if we reduce raid infamy/renown. This also has the benefit of hopefully spreading fights out more round the map one hopes and helps with lag.

I have to say there are many high ranks like me that die alot due to playstyle, having a bonus modifier to kill me seems unfair :)

I personally believe a bonus modifier of killing a player with a high rating (old 5 star system) is better. Rewards killing the players who are more defensive and hug their rating. From SOA days the most fun kills were getting those 5 star hunters before they could DF (Used to be an in combat skill in SOA days). Having a a dedicated creep team whose task this was made for some fun situations.

Any chance you're able to elaborate on how points and commendations are currently calculated and what the proposed changes are?
We know that there are a few variables which are used in the calculation (rating, multipliers, rank and amount of players involved) but it's never been clear as to how exactly.
I'm not afraid of any math :)

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Originally Posted by eliadon

"Orion are you allowed to elaborate on how points are currently calculated and what the proposed changes are in the math? (As in share the calculation)" - Urundus

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The calculations in the background are complex, but the bonuses that we are talking about are less so. These are modifiers that alter the total value of the infamy/renown/comms earned for kills where there are a number of contributors.

In the current version, these contributions are 100/50/33/25/20/15/10% where it caps. So 7+ contributors are still getting a 10% yield on a single kill. This will be adjust to account for a full raid group so that the tail follows the correct divisor all the way to the raid size.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

The calculations in the background are complex, but the bonuses that we are talking about are less so. These are modifiers that alter the total value of the infamy/renown/comms earned for kills where there are a number of contributors.

In the current version, these contributions are 100/50/33/25/20/15/10% where it caps. So 7+ contributors are still getting a 10% yield on a single kill. This will be adjust to account for a full raid group so that the tail follows the correct divisor all the way to the raid size.

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If more people get Infamy/Renown, how that thing can affect in raid vs raid situation, like increase lags?

In theory making infamy/renown gain fairer is very much a good thing, but I'm sceptical about what I'm seeing here - or at least I have some thoughts and questions.

First, I like the idea of awarding more points for more difficult targets (high ranks, high rating, high k/d ratio etc) and less for ganking greenies, but the contribution split has always been a difficult sell - for example, most would agree that having a damage % requirement to get points is prejudicial against healers.

However, if 12 players kill 1 player and that player's worth is distributed equally amongst the 12 players, consider two scenarios:
1. It was 12 players ganking 1 player, or
2. It was a Raid v. Raid fight where the player who was defeated had the benefit of the protection of their Raid, but just lost on this occasion.

If the points in these scenarios are equal, then these changes will not discourage zerging as the new system just becomes the 'norm' for points earned in a Raid.

If the group type doesn't matter (i.e if the 12 players were 2 x 6 player fellowships, 1 x 12 player raid or 12 solo players) and the distribution is based entirely on the number of players contributing to the kill, then reducing the infamy/renown gain where more than 6 players contribute to the kill still doesn't incentivise fellowship size groupings. Instead it just means that you get more bang for your buck when the PVMP population size is low (which is problematic) and fights may be natually limited to 6v6 across the whole map. On the larger servers, even if people limit themselves to fellowship size groupings, multiple groups will move in herds and have no control over any other groups or individuals that may decide to join in the fight and hit the same targets.

Finding an ideal formula for this seems like a difficult task. Good luck!

Finally, actually something that could be useful to stop the clubbing. As long as the modifier applied to Ranks 1 through lets say 9 are really high - in that basically you get next to nothing for a greenie with a small sliding scale up to Rank 9 and then with a higher modifier scaling up from R10 to R15

Please make R15 a ridiculous amount of Infamy because most of them are there by nefarious means and piss poor players.... easy meat... or they will just not log because there is no use in the Zerg if Renown is /24 ....

My hope has been rekindled. A long way to go but this is a start.

Now just stop all the PVE talk in our zone and we will be part way to making EM great again.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

As we draw closer to the next update, we wanted to put an early update to infamy/renown and commendation earns, and how they are being adjusted.

Currently, there is a modifier that increases the amount of infamy/renown and commendations earned for the maximum contributors to a kill. This can inflate the infamy/renown value of a single kill by multiple players to a value over 2x what it should be. We are adjusting this, so that a kill, when contributed to by multiple players properly computes that value and distributes the total infamy/renown value of the target amongst all contributors.

We are also planning to adjust a bonus modifier to gains when killing players of higher ranks. The higher the rank, the more value the player/monster player is worth in terms of infamy/renown.

These changes will be available for testing in the first Bullroarer for Update 36, when it is posted.

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What do healers get then ? do we have to do dmg to get rewarded ?

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Originally Posted by doodiethethird

What do healers get then ? do we have to do dmg to get rewarded ?

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Healers are already factored into the computations in group play. You are counted as contributors as group members.

my suggestion about infamy/renown to stop rank farming from source:
creepside:kill freep that lvl below 140,only get little infamy,and freep that rank below 5,only get little infamy.
freepdide:kill creep that rank below 5,,only get little renown.
you can Adjust appropriately,this is the general idea.


and about March :
Make use any skill auto cancel march,it is Inconvenient that you have to click march to cancel it before fight.
itisnot Substantive change the March, but improve gaming experience a lot.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

Healers are already factored into the computations in group play. You are counted as contributors as group members.

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Whilst changes to comms renown are not beyond the pail I fear that the law of unintended consequences may land and drive a horse and coaches through it.
Firstly , it is quite easy to log on to your best creep and freep dpser to kill a bunch of stuff for hand ins across your account alts. This is a good comms builder and often at a better pace than 'Playing' on a quiet server.
Secondly , and perhaps more seriously there could become a trend towards 'group invite snobbery' where the best players club together to form a supergroup and all other groups are correspondingly weaker allround. Then the supergroups repeatedly club the living daylights out of the oppositions lessergroups until they decide that the moors are not for them afterall.
One of many solutions that may be suggested is the following :- if it were possible for the size of opponent groups in a fight to be asseseed then maybe comms/renown could be scaled up or down due to the difference in ratio. Thus a 12v12 could reward higher numbers than currently to incentivise play , but a 12v8 would give lower numbers to the 12 and more to the 8 thus incentivising more equal groupsize play. Crucially though kills in a 6v6 or 12v12 would give similar numbers and avoid exclusivity and class/rank/skill pickiness as this ultimately constrains involvement/revenue.
Lastly of course its better if pvp dishes out at least the same points as pve if not more as this is where the magic is , and it should be rewarded.

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Originally Posted by Dranak123

One of many solutions that may be suggested is the following :- if it were possible for the size of opponent groups in a fight to be asseseed then maybe comms/renown could be scaled up or down due to the difference in ratio. Thus a 12v12 could reward higher numbers than currently to incentivise play , but a 12v8 would give lower numbers to the 12 and more to the 8 thus incentivising more equal groupsize play. Crucially though kills in a 6v6 or 12v12 would give similar numbers and avoid exclusivity and class/rank/skill pickiness as this ultimately constrains involvement/revenue.

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This is how this will work. Currently, there is a bonus for being in a raid that increases the overall yield of infamy/renown and comms disproportionally. The change we instituted reduces that value significantly. The graduated "bonus" for being grouped has a "sweet spot" at full fellowship. This means that a full fellowship groups will have a modest modifier to earns. The larger the group, beyond full fellowship, the lesser the modifier.

However, the modifier keeps the yields similar through 12v12 and diminshes further thereafter.

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Originally Posted by CreepNeedBuff

my suggestion about infamy/renown to stop rank farming from source:
creepside:kill freep that lvl below 140,only get little infamy,and freep that rank below 5,only get little infamy.
freepdide:kill creep that rank below 5,,only get little renown.
you can Adjust appropriately,this is the general idea.

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This is, pretty much, the change that we are making. In fact, higher levels actively killing "greenies" receive a negative bonus on infmay/renown. The scale on rank bonus increases modestly up to rank 7 and then ratchets up from there. Bullroarer testing will give us a better idea of where these bonuses should suss out.

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Originally Posted by CreepNeedBuff

and about March :
Make use any skill auto cancel march,it is Inconvenient that you have to click march to cancel it before fight.
itisnot Substantive change the March, but improve gaming experience a lot.

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March mimics the Free People's mount skills almost exactly in this regard. We have no plans to change this. There is a change coming for March in that the FX will be adjusted. The solution is fairly simple and gave us a litte bonus customization for monster players.

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Originally Posted by SSG_Orion

March mimics the Free People's mount skills almost exactly in this regard. We have no plans to change this.

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You should though. Change the way mounts work that is. Lotro's "dismounting" is primitive and cumbersome in many ways compared to basically any other MMO. It's annoying to not only have to click 'mount' to dismount before attacking instead of just using the attack and auto dismounting, but it's also annoying you have to click a particular mount to dismount, like I can't hit my horse-A keybind if I'm on my goat to get off the goat, or for horse-A and horse-B, meaning you need a particular keybind for every mount you want to use. I think there's a generic dismount keybind but it doesn't work last I looked.

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Originally Posted by infinitewhimsy

I think there's a generic dismount keybind but it doesn't work last I looked.

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I bind 'mount' to 'R'. When I press 'R' I mount the last steed that I had used, regular or war. Pressing 'R' again dismounts.

[QUOTE=SSG_Orion;8186933]This is, pretty much, the change that we are making. In fact, higher levels actively killing "greenies" receive a negative bonus on infmay/renown. The scale on rank bonus increases modestly up to rank 7 and then ratchets up from there. Bullroarer testing will give us a better idea of where these bonuses should suss out.

This is a good change!