So Orion.. Wardens?

I feel abandonded and unloved :(

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Originally Posted by Orion

Fist, as it is built right now, is only for holding aggro. I've talked with Graal about this and we both agree that we could rework the trait line but that a rework would be a very lengthy one (new animation, new effects, testing, building, stripping it, rebuilding, retesting so on...) and one that we, simply, do not have enough time and resources for in the near future. Long term, we want to look at it and make it better. We've also discussed getting more ranged into the class, for the moment, we are focusing on getting these next iterative steps in and up.

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Originally Posted by Drglory

This is exactly why i was happy when i found out orion was getting wardens. New dev, new chance.

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I highlighted the Important parts of Orion's post there and it sure sounds a lot like this is Graal 2.0 or Graion!

anyhow im done being Debbie downer so im going to forget my worry wort attitude and go play the game a bit.

I hope that the idea that Orion is throwing around regarding morale taps being adjusted for raid tanking comes to fruition. When someone tells you on your warden that they have to figure out what to do with you in the new raid then something is wrong. Now being heavly invested as i am with my warden it really upsets me being told that.

I would very much like to also see the preception of wardens in the new raids change as a whole. Give us the tools to actually do it without having people tell you when coming to the boss fight to leave the raid cause you cant agroo swap with another tank. I know it's happened to me!

Talk about having the class that you truly enjoy playing completely put down in front of the whole raid.
What do you think that says to the whole raid (Oh i guess it's true wardens can't really agro swap if he's being asked to leave the raid). I've agro swapped with a guard on the turtle raid so why can't i be given the shot to do it in the OD raid. I don't want to be cut out of the new raid simply because people have the precieved lack of faith in warden tanking. I'm really sick and tired of all the doubt that gets thrown our way.

P.S. I will be eagerly awaiting the full warden proposal from Orion.

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Originally Posted by HalProudFoot

. When someone tells you on your warden that they have to figure out what to do with you in the new raid then something is wrong.

I would very much like to also see the preception of wardens in the new raids change as a whole. Give us the tools to actually do it without having people tell you when coming to the boss fight to leave the raid cause you cant agroo swap with another tank. I know it's happened to me!

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Wow you are playing with the wrong people then! If my raiding alt wasn't a class we need desperately in order to raid (captain) they'd bring my warden all the time. Even the kins on our server who don't tank with wardens know what they can add and don't ask them to leave. We cheer when we can have our 3 main wardens on a raid, because of what they can add! 3 fights off the top of my head that 2 wardens are great for: Durchest, Wound wing, Blind One.

It seems that perceptions about the class need to change, and the only way that's going to happen is if quality players show them what's possible. The warden is 100% the most difficult to play on an end game level, but we have our place with folks who know what they can do.

The biggest reason I'm so determined to be heard in this thread is because my apathy the last time around I didn't say anything and we ended up with NS, which I refuse to use.

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Originally Posted by heynanni

It seems that perceptions about the class need to change, and the only way that's going to happen is if quality players show them what's possible. The warden is 100% the most difficult to play on an end game level, but we have our place with folks who know what they can do.

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Well, I can think of another way perceptions could change... the revisions could actually address some of the problems people have.

How are we at all optimal for Durchest? That one encourages active aggro manipulation on the part of the tanks.

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Originally Posted by ANewMachine

How are we at all optimal for Durchest? That one encourages active aggro manipulation on the part of the tanks.

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Corruption removal and our mitigations. I'm still not 100% comfortable with my cappy in front of Durchest trying to catch the debuff. A warden can stand in front of him easily and still be putting out dps/constant corruption removal. This is sort of an urban myth, but the trend in our kin is that Durchest specifically stays off the guard and goes for the champ or warden (sometimes the captain >.<).

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Originally Posted by heynanni

This is sort of an urban myth, but the trend in our kin is that Durchest specifically stays off the guard and goes for the champ or warden (sometimes the captain >.<).

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Yeah, our cappy tanks a lot more than he should, through no fault of his own. Moving the aggro debuff around is a huge pain in the butt.

@heynanni Exactly! I mean i know what my warden can and can't do and if i don't know it i'll learn how through trial and error like everybody else.

I think one of the many problems in raids is that the raid leaders either never played a warden or they are told by others what they think the class can't do (wether true or not) and the raid leaders take it for truth. So with some of them its pointless to explain to them what you can do since they've already made up their minds.

Finally i think that many players need to break out of that old mold of Guards being the only tanks in the game. Wardens have been in game long enough for all these myths about wardens not being real tanks to be over with,We are real tanks and we show our ability to tank on a daily basis.

P.S. I do have NS slotted in my quickbar but i've never used it ...

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Originally Posted by rocketeer8015

Huh? People trait spear to increase their Threat, not decrease it. Its one of the reasons fist line is in such a bind, spear does a better job building threat.

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Sorry did not post all of my line of thinking here. This would go with a revamp of the fist line to make it a much better choice for tanking.

ok just as a thought its been 2 times that i have tanked for a few of my kin mates since they couldn't find anyone else to do the job, they thought "lets try Oun." i said ok and we had mobs at least 10 levels above me. never been where they took me but i had a chance to trade aggro with a level 65 hunter and it worked. all i really had to do was when hunter was kiting he'd bring it near me and i'd toss a PB, then heal, then PB then heal, easy rotation but it worked! it pulled the mob off him enough to let him breathe and with me at level 36, an LM at 47 and the hunter. i had very little problem pulling aggro from him. LM was told to stay back and let her cat do the talking, feed power and heal if possible. so now my kin asks for my help as much as they can AND have asked what they need to do to make tanking easier for me.

the second tiem was same hunter and me, with an RK thrown in. his rocks took the place of the cat and we did it again.

a couple small examples of how kins can actually learn wardens can tank nearly anything you throw them at.

wardens are made for this stuff and to be the one that people call on. they just haven't learned yet, change being what it is is hard to do sometimes, especially with people that haven't seen and experienced what a warden is capable of.

I think Orion is partial to Guardians, because he has a belt named after him... just saying.

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Originally Posted by LtDiablo

I think Orion is partial to Guardians, because he has a belt named after him... just saying.

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.../thread

personally i think the fist line needs rework. i would keep the light based attacks as they are essential for killing in moria, but i did notice that it was very difficult keeping the warden alive early on at level 25-40 when fighting multiple mobs or killing signatures. This needs work definitely. The warden class as i understand it should have a deed to improve the amount healed per tick and this should be a deed they can achieve early in the game. This would greatly help the leveling process.

Damage output was another issue. Early in the game every battle is almost an epic one trying to kill the mobs takes forever. one of the javelin deed rewards could easily clear this problem up right away by increasing damage output alround by 20%-25% instead of only javelin gambits by 10-15%.

oh and almost forgot Gambits like Onslaught could easily have been made an AOE attack as in early skirmishes solo AOE's would help out tremendously.

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Originally Posted by geoboy

.../thread

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Did I win?

Yes. I think that this thread has run it's course. Far too many pages without a derail.

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Originally Posted by geoboy

Yes. I think that this thread has run it's course. Far too many pages without a derail.

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But I has a serious question for Orion! Is it at all possible to get some Wardenism(s) some how incorporated into a trait or skill, just a tiny little subtle easter egg in a description :D

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Originally Posted by LtDiablo

But I has a serious question for Orion! Is it at all possible to get some Wardenism(s) some how incorporated into a trait or skill, just a tiny little subtle easter egg in a description :D

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NO!

/charses

I couldn't be bothered to read this whole thread, but strongly believe Wardens need class improvement. So to Orion, I will simply say with our unique Warden poetry:

Fellow Wardens, we stand proud, and cry, "Once more unto the breach, dear friends..."
Inimitable, unmovable, unwavering in defense of the innocent.
Xenephobia is not in our lexicon as we protect all equally.

My skills are peerless... except when using the Fist line. WTB 3 individually useful trait lines pls.
Everything a Guardian can do, I can match... except threat copies and breaking BPE & common damage caps!
Healing is my strength, with self-defensive buffs and aggro right behind ... but use all 3 at once? Unpossible!

Make of this post what you will. Most of
Us Wardens know the true meaning of our rhymes. They become
Better ways to communicate secretly, and only the cleverest may
Raid our hordes of knowledge. Only the best of us Warden
Tanks know how to unlock our secrets.
By learning our code, you must swear that
Giving away our secrets to lesser-classes. To
Us, giving away the secrets of our rhymes is a horrible crime and will
Aggro mobs of angry Wadens on you. Then you will need all of your
Tools and tricks to escape alive.

~Rae

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Originally Posted by Varenthor

Make of this post what you will. Most of
Us Wardens know the true meaning of our rhymes. They become
Better ways to communicate secretly, and only the cleverest may
Raid our hordes of knowledge. Only the best of us Warden
Tanks know how to unlock our secrets.
By learning our code, you must swear that
Giving away our secrets to lesser-classes. To
Us, giving away the secrets of our rhymes is a horrible crime and will
Aggro mobs of angry Wadens on you. Then you will need all of your
Tools and tricks to escape alive.

~Rae

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You're doing it wrong. :)

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Originally Posted by Belaeren

You're doing it wrong. :)

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Ignore shortcomings, say everything is ok and, win!

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Originally Posted by heynanni

Wow you are playing with the wrong people then! If my raiding alt wasn't a class we need desperately in order to raid (captain) they'd bring my warden all the time. Even the kins on our server who don't tank with wardens know what they can add and don't ask them to leave. We cheer when we can have our 3 main wardens on a raid, because of what they can add! 3 fights off the top of my head that 2 wardens are great for: Durchest, Wound wing, Blind One.

It seems that perceptions about the class need to change, and the only way that's going to happen is if quality players show them what's possible. The warden is 100% the most difficult to play on an end game level, but we have our place with folks who know what they can do.

The biggest reason I'm so determined to be heard in this thread is because my apathy the last time around I didn't say anything and we ended up with NS, which I refuse to use.

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I guess I never ran with any of the kins you're familiar with, because I NEVER got to bring my warden on any raids and had to fight just to bring him along on DN. Its the main reason I'm not playing on Meneldor anymore.

I have seen both ways used, and for longer messages, you can
See my way is shorter and less tedious.
Understand, I know both ways, but I wanted to get my longer message out. I guess i have
Complete ignorance on the fact that there is a right way to compose our simple prose.
Kill me if you must.

~Rae

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Originally Posted by Orion

Things that are on the table:

• Making Determination more attractive by adding some power regen and increases crit chance reduction

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I like the sound of that! I never run in anything but Conservation 'cos I'm always out of power if I do. If wardens are supposed to be off-DPS, we need to be able to actually, y'know, use skills in our DPS stance.

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Originally Posted by Orion

• Addition of effects that will allow for some Gambits to replace themselves when they are used (ex. Completing a Power Attack while under this effect would immediately fill the gambit bar with Spear, Shield, Taunt) All Gambit lines would benefit from this, the different stances would determine which gambit is altered.

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Oh, buddy, I dunno ... this looks really dicey to me. The instant flexibility of the gambit system is one of its great strengths -- I don't want to be herded into chaining gambits that I may or may not want at any given moment. Is the idea of making masteries more usable REALLY so bad? Why? Masteries are beautiful things.

I'm also really not keen on the idea of having to memorize yet more different combinations to account for being in different states. Much of the warden class (for me at least) is muscle memory, keystrokes (or mouse clicks) practiced until they've become something I can do without having to think about which keys I'm hitting (and can instead think about which gambit I need to do next). The proposed change sounds to me like now I'm also going to have to be thinking about whether or not I have to follow-up my gambit with a Recovery in order to clear unwanted builders out of the gambit bar. :confused: Not good!

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Originally Posted by Orion

• Enhancements to some of the Way of the Spear Traits/Trait Set bonuses
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Shield Traits/Trait Set bonuses
  Enhancements to some of the Way of the Fist Traits/Trait Set bonuses

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Um, okay. Nothing much here to respond to either way.

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Originally Posted by Orion

One thing that I will be up front about is Masteries. They are not likely to be turned into skills at any time soon.

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Again, why? This is something wardens have been clamoring for, and I cannot for the world see what would be so bad about it. Your followup posts suggest there might be some consolidation or similar stuff happening with them, so I'll keep an eye on that. But the general vibe really seems to be that you guys don't really want us using masteries, which I just don't understand. Why put the things into the game in the first place, then?

I will say here that as my alt is a champion, I'm jazzed about the idea of getting some tanky love on him ... but I really don't want him to be a better tank than my warden, nor even as good as.

And I really want my kinnies to stop saying, when I bring my warden along, "That's cool, but who's going to be the tank?" -- even after I've MTed through countless instances. I would actually go so far as to say that wardens could stand to be completely OP tanks for a while, even with a future nerf built into the plan, just to break people of that habit.

-The Gneech :cool: