TRANSCRIPT: Twitter Dev Chat August 21, 2013 - Class Changes

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Originally Posted by spelunker

I think both you and the poster you quoted need to separate the issue of losing skills, from the issue of trying to solo group instances, or be simultaneously effective at buffing, debuffing, healing, and dps.

Losing access to skills, or combining multiple skill effects into new ones to reduce total skills (which i suspect will happen to some classes that get more 'pruning' done) seems like simplification for the sake of simplification, to me. Making it so you have to trait deep into the blue line for water lore to stack at all would not simplify the class, but it would make it less able to have it all. Similarly, halving the duration of various debuffs, or dots, or sticky gourd unless traited specifically for it (and not being able to trait for all of this) would not simplify the class, but it would more effectively prevent classes like Loremaster, Warden, and Captain from having their cake and eating it too, which in large part they can do right now.

Since all we really know is that skills are being pruned, and have no real concept for how limiting the new trait trees will be, the exact opposite of what I suggest might become the reality, for all I know.

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turbine are simplifyig things that dont need simplifying....llike i said earlier if it ent broke dont fix it. Classes that are currently versatile (like the ones u mentioned) wont be when the changes are implemented. They will have to stick to a certain role...whatever....and with the current set-up of PISS EASY RAIDS.....PISS EASY INSTANCES....PISS EASY SCALED INSTANCES....how the hell can tirbine justify even conemplating making things easier. Captains MUST either heal/dps/tank (Blue/Red/Yellow), same with all classes you mentioned....turbine are taking away the fun of 'hybrid traiting' like we do now to be versatile...YES good in practise as it makes people ASK IN GLOBAL FOR THE SPECIFIC CLASS NEEDED TO FILL THE ROLL. But we all know that no new instances/raids are coming...so once again i ask why?

If new content was coming that needed the changes then yeah sure......bring it on for new instances/raids....but tirbines focus is on solo end-game...which has no need for champion/captain tanks or whatever, just using them as en example, so once again why change?

to sum it up theres no new content that needs the changes, or content coming. One of the fun things about lotro is the versatility of classes at various times, thanks for taking that away

:D

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Originally Posted by jnv7594

Um, I'm not blind. I can see your picture, and I have read all the posts. Even your picture makes it obvious that you're a LM, so you can lay off treating me like I'm an idiot and you are the grand master. Did I keep track of all your specific posts? No. In the grand scheme, I don't know you, so keeping track of EVERY post you make is not high on my list of priorities. They all blend together after reading nine pages of them. Even though I am a long time player, I have avoided the forum all this time. So even if you are some popular poster on here to regulars, you are just another poster to me. Yes, your comment was general, which means it was aimed at everyone, including myself since I was in that conversation. The fact that you made a shoot down comment about talking about specific classes seemed like it wasn't of importance to you, regardless if you play the class or not, especially since you wanted people to stop focusing on the LM class and get back to what was "important." You can stop with the haughty attitude now. If YOU had been paying attention, you would have seen that in a post I made just recently, I said I had read all the comments.

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Well, aren't you a firecracker?

I can't keep you from posting whatever you want, by all means, go ahead. But I don't want Sapience to show up and lock the thread because it's been derailed from 'Class Changes' to whether or not the LM can dps or heal or whatever. The Lore Master forums are that way ---->

Again, good day and perhaps try to relax; all that pent up anger will give you headache.

First let me say that I have been playing LOTRO since not long after f2p came out (oct. 1 2010). I have enjoyed this game tremendously and am an admitted altaholic. I think overall Turbine has done a great job with translating Tolkien's world to a MMO. However I am very concerned. One of the best features of the game to me has always been it's flexibility. There was no fixed way to play the game. I am afraid that soon we will lose a lot of that flexibility after reading this thread.

I am also concerned how turbine slowly offers less and less benefits to it's players and most of the community doesn't even notice it. At one time there were quests that were bestowed at certain levels that sent you to new areas and rewarded you with turbine points. Those quests are gone (although similar ones are available they do not offer free TP). Another example is that since changing task resets to mithril coins they have effectively doubled the cost (in tp) for the ability to reset tasks. In fact although you used to receive a free task reset token as a reward when you hit a task deed level (at 100, 200, 300, 400 and 500 tasks) now you do not. Yes I realize that the task reset tokens are gone the way of the dodo bird since mithril coins came into being but it is still a benefit lost. So now I am concerned on if we are no longer going to receive tp for completing task deeds after I read this thread.

I will continue to play this game and I will just have to wait and see how the changes effect gameplay and my total enjoyment of the game.

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Originally Posted by pvdtheking

Captains MUST either heal/dps/tank (Blue/Red/Yellow), same with all classes you mentioned

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Not true. The idea of 'specializing' means you're focusing on one of those three, but not limited to just that. Hybrids will still be around, but will be less potent than they are right now (which is a good thing, because a captain should not be able to heal as well in red line as it currently can, considering HoH barely puts out more heals and that's the healing line).

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

BfE, smaug and flight was there idea of tough. players wiped 2/3 of them unexpectedly quickly. while the last ones hardest bit is the lag of extra waves and how puddles wern't balanced quite right, making one of the possible outcomes so much harder than the rest.

our classes can do too much atm. dps and healing is insane. tanks take a rediculas amount of damage compared to dps classes. so maybe fixing the classes is an easier way to do it at this point to make sure GROUP content is more about working as a GROUP.

concidering turbine and other mmo's have said making instance clusters to be the longest and hardest development cycle, I wouldn't be surprised if nurfing us (making classes more pure) is just as viable a solution as buffing the instances.

admit it, our tools are old... so many classes have just not kept up to date well. so glad we're finily getting a huge all class overhaul to bring to fresh light in the game. and no, it's not just change for change sake...

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The Erebor raid cluster is... well... I barely think of those instances when people say 'raids'. I'm talking about content like Tower of Orthanc; it wasn't insanely hard, but it was just right so that some wings were very easy and some wings were challenging. Turbine CAN develop great raids and instanced content, but they aren't doing it for whatever reason.

And yes, 'nerfing' us would 'solve' the issue that we beat content too quickly, but is that really the best way? Simplifying classes to the point of taking half our skills in some cases? Streamlining the cookie cutter builds even more? This isn't even a good ol' nerf, it's a complete class rework if I understand it correctly.

As I said in another post, I would have been fine with a nerf to some skills but taking skills so that the content they develop seems challenging is a completely different thing.

I'm confused why people seem to think that making you choose skills will push people into cookie cutter builds, when not everyone is going to choose to keep the same skills.
Yes, it's a bit of a simplification, but simplification does not always equal cookie cutter.

wait a second? you guys are, for real, going ahead with TREES?

you created one of the best systems in any MMO I have played, with the TRAIT system... only to throw it away for the most played-out system in MMOs? really? im in shock here.

this is THE most disappointed I have been with this game since I have started playing. I will hold off final judgement until I see it... but this does NOT bode well.

even WoW switched to a system closer to what you guys had been doing.


"This will come at the cost of broad utility"

as a career capn, this kills me. you (turbine) have been the ONLY game company that makes MMOs to really nail the jack-of-all-trades characters. they worked really well in Asheron's Call and the Capn, in LOTRO, is THE finest class I have played in ANY MMO.


Turbine, all im reading here is that you've taken the pieces that have made YOUR games great and you are ditching them for what makes your competition, just ok. am I the only one seeing it this way?


im really scared, for the first time, about the future of one of my favorite games...


A28: DeviledEgg They'll still feel like the class you know, just better versions. #LOTRO
A28a: Jinjaah They should feel better catered to the role they were destined to fill. #LOTRO

not from what you all said above this!

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Originally Posted by Elemiire

Furthermore, let's assume I traited red to go DPS in the moors, but suddenly things get ugly and I need to drop War Speech and heal, for what I understand, I will not have all of my healing skills available and vice versa. This is bad.

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I had the same panic-stricken thought. But, with RockX's feedback, I think it will likely be a lot more simple. Our stances (among other things) will not be a part of the new system. So switching from Harmony, unstanced (ie: heals-focused), and War-Speech will be the same as always. I think what will be effected is how many skills under those traits that will be effected. Off the top of my head, we have one Harmony-specific skill and three War-Speech specific skills (plus some healing skills specifically for healing allies, which all grey out or become self-heals only when in War-Speech). I bet all of those stance-specific skills WILL be locked behind the new system. But some of the core skills that every class will NEED regardless of its role will probably fall into the "other pool" that RockX referred to. For example, at extreme low levels, minstrels still get several skills for DPS and several for healing. When I talk of core skills, I mean ballads and the coda, obviously, as well as the first two heals (Raise the Spirit and Bolster Courage) and the first non-ballad damage skills (Herald's Strike and Piercing Cry). And, again, the stances themselves (which mean our Tales and Echoes/Melody skills) we will get regardless of our build. It is my guess that most (perhaps all?) skills that are earned at early levels are not among those 20ish skills that change depending on builds. Anthems I can easily see being gated behind certain builds. Rally will depend on our build, whereas Enlivening Grace undoubtedly will not.

There are certain skills that define a class, to such a degree that the class simply ISN'T that class anymore. What would a minstrel be without the ballads and coda? Those four skills are essential. You need your ballads (even if you just spam the same one as soon as the CD is gone) to throw your coda. There just isn't room to NOT have them.

The biggest issue (with raids or the Moors) is when you get stuck in combat... You can change your build on the fly... so long as you are not in combat. >.<

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Originally Posted by Rimmer_Dall

I just threw a bean bag on my jump to conclusions mat......it landed on the line between epic fail and puppies and rainbows.

....now i gotta dig out my wheel of speculation.

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+rep if I could! I got such a massive laugh out of that! And here I thought I was crazy for killing one of our chickens and waving it over my computer every time I have a tech problem. xD

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Originally Posted by Sapience

Q3: Leixy: Using war-steeds as a template, how will trait points be earned and spent on trait trees? #LOTRO
A3: HoarseDev: You’ll earn a point every other level. You’ll also earn points from some deeds. #LOTRO
A3a:You’ll choose a specialization at an early level that will grant specific bonuses and affect the cost of traits as you spend them #LOTRO

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I don't mind having to spend more points if I go out of my specialization. That makes sense. It is much, actually, like the traditional D&D games, as I understand them. Much the way the single-player Neverwinter Nights or Knights of the Old Republic games work. If it's in your spec, it's 1 point to upgrade. If it's out of your spec, it's 2 points to upgrade. Very logical.

My concern: PLEASE tell me we can change our spec! I'm NOT talking about changing stances or builds. Just please tell me this is NOT like The Old Republic where you have to choose between two sub-classes at level 10 and can NEVER EVER change that (without deleting and just starting over). Can we change whatever specialization you speak of? You make it sound like a permanent choice that we make at a low level that will permanently affect the costs.

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Originally Posted by Sapience

You are partly right. We have a fix coming for some of this, specifically mounted combat lag, in Update 11.3. Along with some additional monitoring that will help us further isolate issues players report as 'lag'. We've learned a lot, including what is absolutely not part of the issue, but we're not 100% content yet.

However, we're also going to publish new system requirements in the near future. As we've been investigating we've discovered that our minimum and recommended specs are not accurate. Some of our updates push equipment more than we realized (Moria did, Mirkwood did, Rohan very much did, and we expect Helm's Deep will). So we're working on a new set of specs to better reflect what you should use as baselines to run the game. Again, always take 'run the game' to mean the lower end of things, to really run it full bore with raids and other action on screen you always want to aim higher (no matter what game).

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I still suffer from lag at times (particularly with rubber-banding), but I at least have full confidence in you. When Rohan launched I suffered from the entire game locking up and forcing a shut-down every 30m to 1h. Now? I can't even REMEMBER the last time my game locked up, and yes I frequently have the game open for hours on end some days. For me, that is a tremendous improvement.

But back to the rubber-banding... ^_^ Friend for life if you spank that demon right back to the underworld from whence it came!

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

I'm confused why people seem to think that making you choose skills will push people into cookie cutter builds, when not everyone is going to choose to keep the same skills.
Yes, it's a bit of a simplification, but simplification does not always equal cookie cutter.

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A friend of mine (LM) has used the eagle ever since she got it. She was saying just the other day that it is her favorite pet and has never seen any reason to use any other pet ever since then. Me on the other hand? I tried it when I got to the appropriate level and quickly discarded it. I've used my lynx since I got it, occasionally swapping in Boggy when the situation called for it. Never used the eagle since I first tried it.

So yes, as TinDragon well puts it: not everyone is going to choose to keep the same skills. What may seem like a "how can anyone live without it?!" skill to one person may be a "why would anyone bother with it?!" skill to another person.

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Aside from anything I've quoted and responded to, here is my question about class changes. Can the guard PLEASE have some better threat skills when mounted? I know these changes already described relate to unmounted, but this is still a class issue. What would be great is an AOE threat skill that aggroes everything (okay, maybe 5 targets?) within 20-30 (-40? :D) meters. Everything about range was changed with MC. Mobs have a lower threat range and skills have a larger attack range (in general). Every skill a guardian has in MC is single-target and most of them only add threat. We need a multi-target, insta-threat skill with good range on it! I feel like low-DPS champion on MC. One of the weakest classes I have played for MC (so far played LM, hunter, mini, RK and guard; my questing buddy has all 9 classes at level cap and agrees that guard is one of the worst).

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Originally Posted by SapienChavez

wait a second? you guys are, for real, going ahead with TREES?

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Wait, is this news to you? They confirmed that this was happening back in like March.

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Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave

My concern: PLEASE tell me we can change our spec! I'm NOT talking about changing stances or builds. Just please tell me this is NOT like The Old Republic where you have to choose between two sub-classes at level 10 and can NEVER EVER change that (without deleting and just starting over). Can we change whatever specialization you speak of? You make it sound like a permanent choice that we make at a low level that will permanently affect the costs.

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If I remember correctly, specialization can be changed (as long as you're willing to redo the tree). So far as I can tell, resetting the build resets absolutely everything, to include the specialization.
It'd be kind of a terrible system if you couldn't change it.

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A friend of mine (LM) has used the eagle ever since she got it. She was saying just the other day that it is her favorite pet and has never seen any reason to use any other pet ever since then. Me on the other hand? I tried it when I got to the appropriate level and quickly discarded it. I've used my lynx since I got it, occasionally swapping in Boggy when the situation called for it. Never used the eagle since I first tried it.

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LM was actually the class I was thinking about this with, but a different skill. I see a lot of people (read: 99.999% of LMs) that use Ents when they're yellow traited. I personally don't see the point, I'd much rather drop Ents out to bring in the Eagle or Noble Savage.

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Aside from anything I've quoted and responded to, here is my question about class changes. Can the guard PLEASE have some better threat skills when mounted? I know these changes already described relate to unmounted, but this is still a class issue. What would be great is an AOE threat skill that aggroes everything (okay, maybe 5 targets?) within 20-30 (-40?

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:D) meters. Everything about range was changed with MC. Mobs have a lower threat range and skills have a larger attack range (in general). Every skill a guardian has in MC is single-target and most of them only add threat. We need a multi-target, insta-threat skill with good range on it! I feel like low-DPS champion on MC. One of the weakest classes I have played for MC (so far played LM, hunter, mini, RK and guard; my questing buddy has all 9 classes at level cap and agrees that guard is one of the worst).

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Just pretend you can DPS and let the cappies tank. :p

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Originally Posted by Elemiire

The Erebor raid cluster is... well... I barely think of those instances when people say 'raids'. I'm talking about content like Tower of Orthanc; it wasn't insanely hard, but it was just right so that some wings were very easy and some wings were challenging. Turbine CAN develop great raids and instanced content, but they aren't doing it for whatever reason.

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I can't quote exactly, but in a twitter chat ages ago (official one) they mentioned that one facter of content being too easy was there current modal of classes can do too much.

nothing has really changed in the content development part, no real new mechanics have been added. ok maybe bubbles and a few other things I can't think off. so I don't think it's the content development that is mostly the issue. but as time has gone on, classes have been getting buffed and buffed every update. simple was to prove this is look at moors, those NPC's used to be hard, U10 that "fixed" the damage scaling bug just showed how much we have advance to far from the core of enemy's and there mechanisms.

part of this is due to the uncapping of many stats when RoI came out. at 75 you could pop back into Ivar at 65 and your dps would be destoryed as our tanks buffed up like crazy, but most classes defence shot down like crazy. out dps too, shot way, way up. 2K dps is almost a norm in instances now, and no one ever thought we'd be hitting that at 65 in 20 levels. our classes have scaled up much better than both landscape content and revamped instances.

hopefully, as a whole, groups will level down a little, but core classes (dps/tank/healer) will need to be supported to do what they could so naturally before.

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yes, 'nerfing' us would 'solve' the issue that we beat content too quickly, but is that really the best way? Simplifying classes to the point of taking half our skills in some cases? Streamlining the cookie cutter builds even more? This isn't even a good ol' nerf, it's a complete class rework if I understand it correctly.

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who said it's simplifying?

you havn't even seen the end product, don't create assumtions. we already have cookie cutter builds. our classes arn't as hard as people make out.

I don't think it'll be a nurf of everything. the end result of a group could act the same as on live. but, hopefully, you'll need to rely on other people to play well to acheive such an easy mode. back in SG at 65, it was hard tbh, when you pugged it you could wipe just because 1 class didn't do well. but just 1 person playing extremely well (the tank) wasn't able to drag the team though. you needed maybe 3 at least.

do you see kinda what I'm getting at? everything can do everything, but not all at once. when the group works together, they are worth more than the sum of there parts. currently, we don't have that...

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As I said in another post, I would have been fine with a nerf to some skills but taking skills so that the content they develop seems challenging is a completely different thing.

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they are also adding skills btw (rock said some new burg ones...). probably close to all the skills be will changed. I don't think the issue is in clear numbers, but how much openness the current classes have.

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

Not true. The idea of 'specializing' means you're focusing on one of those three, but not limited to just that. Hybrids will still be around, but will be less potent than they are right now (which is a good thing, because a captain should not be able to heal as well in red line as it currently can, considering HoH barely puts out more heals and that's the healing line).

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This coupled with the around '20 skills per class' that turbine are aiming for means captians MAY not have access to heals as they wont have spent points unlocking them. An easier solution would be to make healing MUCH MUCH reduced in a red-line captain than a HOH captain....also would work for other clases, instead of changing the whole mechanics of the game change the benefits of skills when not specialized. Instead we get a full revamp.....at a time when turbine are alienating many paying members, risking them alienating MORE people (including me), yes im pissed off, yes im worried....i pay for a game i ####ing love and then get told they are changing things because captains/champs cant tank (yes there are more reasons)...well roll a god damn warden or guardian like i did....nothing will beat a guardian or warden tanking.....they are ####in tanks so why make it easier for the minority of people who wont roll one! They are encouraging versatlity of classes like champs/cappys in one way.....reducing theyre versatility in another...and pissing people off in the mean time

nice one

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Originally Posted by pvdtheking

they are changing things because captains/champs cant tank

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They're changing things because classes have become stale. I can assure you they're not doing entire class revamps simply because two classes can't tank.

Dear devs, dear Turbine, allow me to express my negativism about these changes. Why? Because at the end you will only make us taking white/black decisions instead grey.

Some guy wrote earlier that ... "You'll be able to do almost everything you did before, but with much more potency". But if you enter more in details, that will not be more potency, will be easier, less thinking, less options, less complexity. Right? Let take MINSTREL class. This class took many rewamps along the time, i leveled my main when was no WS and now after 4 years i think i learned lot about him. This class is still very versatile and complex, not as wardens or LM's but still awesome.
Ok, last rewamp on minstrels was when RoI was launched. So we presume our class had been *fixed*, right? So how we will be able to do almost everything we did before, but with much more potency?
Please let me remember dear devs about SOME of our skills.

- 6 anthems: Anthem of War, Anthem of the Free Peoples, Anthem of Prowess, Anthem of Compassion, Anthem of the Third Age, Anthem of Composure. Each one with diferent buffs so is NOT possible to remove any of them, each one having an excelent designated role.
- 3 ballads: Minor Ballad, Major Ballad, Perfect Ballad. You cannot give up on those. WIll not remember Cry of Chorus.
- 4 Call to War: The Melody of Battle, Call of Oromë, Call of the Second Age, Call to Fate.
- 7 Healing skills: Raise the Spirit, Bolster Courage, Inspire Fellows, Triumphant Spirit, Chord of Salvation, Fellowship's Heart, Soliloquy of Spirit. Will not remember Rally and Enlivening Grace.
- 11 skills Musical Mentoring: 11 skills. Ok, remove them :(
- 6 Songs: Song of Subdual, Song of Restoration, Song of Soothing, Song of Aid, Song of Distraction, Symphony of the Hopeful Heart.
- 14 other skills: Herald's Strike, Coda, Noble Cause, Story of Courage, Still As Death, Story of the Hammerhand, Gift of the Hammerhand, Piercing Cry, Invocation of Elbereth, Cry of the Valar, Cry of the Wizards, Call to the Fellowship, Call to Greatness, Call of Eärendil
- 4 Tales

So we have ... 50 skills. Wow. And now dear producers, you want to tell me that in Helm's Deep i will the same awesome healer with under half of those? How i will do that?
I need 3 ballads + coda. I need 6 anthems. So 10 skills. I need one short healing skill, one bigger one, one aoe, one hot, one emergency and one legendary healing skills. 16. My bubbles. 18. Outside combat rez, incombat rez. 20. Dam, now i will need to stop. Ok so that is it? No feign death? No utility skills like Song of Aid, Call of Greatness, one skill for removing corruptions, my tales, one skill for fear, one skill for intrerupt inductions, my skills for dps, no more mentoring music who did minstrels to be such an loved class? All the micro management from anthems combined with coda for diferent buffs?
I know, you will make us bots maybe. One skill for healing, one for buffing, one for dpsing. And i am keep telling you, the only diference between Lotro and WoW is the lack of instant aggro and instant healing. Or i am wrong?

Dear devs, that was just me, an lousy easy class, minstrel. I really dont wish you to upset the advanced classes, like LM's and wardens.
Each update, Lotro became more casual. That was the way you intended. When you did all the *Let talk about rewamp* topics on lotro forums, i was thinking that hey, they will fix the old and bad skills or update them (like strenght of man who is healing you 2-3k when your morale is 10k nowdays). But it seem i was wrong.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

I can't quote exactly, but in a twitter chat ages ago (official one) they mentioned that one facter of content being too easy was there current modal of classes can do too much.

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I agree, but yet, they keep introducing things like Universal Healing potions, store morale potions, store bubbles, store defense tomes, etc.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

nothing has really changed in the content development part, no real new mechanics have been added. ok maybe bubbles and a few other things I can't think off. so I don't think it's the content development that is mostly the issue. but as time has gone on, classes have been getting buffed and buffed every update. simple was to prove this is look at moors, those NPC's used to be hard, U10 that "fixed" the damage scaling bug just showed how much we have advance to far from the core of enemy's and there mechanisms.

part of this is due to the uncapping of many stats when RoI came out. at 75 you could pop back into Ivar at 65 and your dps would be destoryed as our tanks buffed up like crazy, but most classes defence shot down like crazy. out dps too, shot way, way up. 2K dps is almost a norm in instances now, and no one ever thought we'd be hitting that at 65 in 20 levels. our classes have scaled up much better than both landscape content and revamped instances.

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That's fair, but they could introduce new mechanics, they could increase the damage, they could decrease ours, etc. I am really not against a nerf, but this is beyond a nerf.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

who said it's simplifying?

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I did; it's the way I see it from what I've seen so far and from experience with other games that use this 'tree' mechanic.

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Originally Posted by bohbashum

I don't think it'll be a nurf of everything. the end result of a group could act the same as on live. but, hopefully, you'll need to rely on other people to play well to acheive such an easy mode. back in SG at 65, it was hard tbh, when you pugged it you could wipe just because 1 class didn't do well. but just 1 person playing extremely well (the tank) wasn't able to drag the team though. you needed maybe 3 at least.

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I played before RoI, and I do miss that, but I don't see how this change was necessary to make that happen again.

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

If I remember correctly, specialization can be changed (as long as you're willing to redo the tree). So far as I can tell, resetting the build resets absolutely everything, to include the specialization.
It'd be kind of a terrible system if you couldn't change it.

LM was actually the class I was thinking about this with, but a different skill. I see a lot of people (read: 99.999% of LMs) that use Ents when they're yellow traited. I personally don't see the point, I'd much rather drop Ents out to bring in the Eagle or Noble Savage.

Just pretend you can DPS and let the cappies tank. :p

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In order:

Specialization - I hope so! That is what my first impression was, but a later comment sent me scrambling back to re-read and I was left with some measure of doubt. Because yeah, if we can't change our specialization at will... gosh that might be the straw that broke the camel's back.

LMs - I honestly have the most worry about how these changes will effect the LM more than any other class that I have played to level cap, and the LM isn't even my favorite class (3rd fav, right after mini and RK). I can't say much for yellow-traited LMs, since I'm blue-traited (5b1y1r): Master of Beasts, Hardy Companion, Light of Hope, Healer, Proof Against All Ills, Fast Loader, and Awareness of Body. In addition, I do have the March of the Ents trait equipped (as well as Noble Savage and Nature-friend). I am devoted to improving my pet as best as I can. I should rephrase my previous comment though. I also use my bear. I use my lynx for DPS, my bear to tank for me, and boggy in a few other situations. I don't use my raven anymore and never used my eagle, sabre-cat, or spirit. I tried them out, then went right back to my lynx/bear/boggy. If I liked my eagle better, I would swap it in instead of the Ents skill. But right now I just don't care for it. The best thing it offers is its sacrifice skill, imo, and I don't plan on dying. xD

Guards - *sigh* Right now that's about all I can do. xD I duo'ed with my buddy's minstrel when I took my guard through Wildermore. For short battles or battles against mounted mobs that love to run, we both just set ourselves on /follow and went at it that way, and if I didn't have threat then I guess I just didn't have threat. Whenever able (with drawn-out warband fights) I would dismount and fight on foot, since that was the only way I could keep the aggro off my buddy.

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Originally Posted by andracy

Dear devs, dear Turbine, allow me to express my negativism about these changes. Why? Because at the end you will only make us taking white/black decisions instead grey.

[...]

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I snipped the rest just to keep my post short, but I refer to your post as a whole. I also encourage you to read this post from earlier:

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Originally Posted by RockX

So, the "20 skills" issue is something I'd like to address.

First, it is referring to skills which actively impact gameplay. Things such as teleports, pets, stances, and fluff skills (and probably another category which I'm not thinking of off the top of my head) will not count against that amount.

Second, the "20 skills" is not a hard and fast number, but more of a general guideline. You may end up with more or less, depending on your specialization.

Third, each class has a pool of general skills (skills we feel are important to all three specialization lines) and more specific skills. How you choose to invest your traits will have an impact on what skills are available to you. I'll use the Burglar as an example. Please bear in mind some of the specific skills I'm mentioning are new, and we'll discuss their impact at a later time.

Some general skills every single Burglar will eventually have access to include (but are not limited to): Riddle, Subtle Stab, Double-edged Strike, Reveal Weakness and Hide in Plain Sight. Now, if I choose to specialize as a Gambler, I'll immediately gain access to Lucky Strike and Hedge Your Bet. From here, I could completely fill in the Gambler tree, picking up skills such as Gambler's Advantage, Trip and All In. Or, I could choose to not invest all of my points in Gambler to pick up Stun Dust from the Quiet Knife line and Trick: Dust in the Eyes from the Mischief-maker line.

The exact number of skills you have will vary, based on how you choose to specialize your character and spend your trait points.

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It says there will be a general pool of skills that are important to all three lines. These will undoubtedly include some basic heals, basic damage skills, your ballads, your coda, the out of combat rez (in-combat rez is ALREADY a trait, so that will undoubtedly remain locked in the tree), and a number of other skills. In addition, your stances (and I am optimistically including toggle skills such as our Tales in this) will be in this pool. And there will probably be a few more skills included in here. The devs KNOW that there are CORE ESSENTIAL skills that each class requires. These skills WILL NOT count towards your total. Most of those 20 will be skills that require more specific roles. A full-out DPS minstrel can't even use some heals because they heal fellow members (and in War-speech, minstrels aren't able to heal fellows at all, so such skills end up greyed out or become self-heals). So if your are a full-out DPSer, you don't use those skills already. Whereas there are several skills that require WS, which means your Harmony or unstanced minstrel already can't use those either.

I think a lot of people (and yes, at first I included myself in this, and even now I have some concerns) are counting the chicks before they are hatched.

Greetings...

I honestly don't get the argument that the existing trait system is more flexible than any given tree system. In order to gain max aoe dps on a champion now for example you would trait x yellow and x red or x yellow? I haven't done the theory crafting on this but the point is given equal player skills and gear, there is one build that would account for the top aoe dps using the exact number of existing traits and legacies. A tree system does pretty much the same thing only things are laid out differently. Sure skills are gated behind points in a tree but now we are gated by the amount of traits we can equip. In our current system for example in order to trait a capstone you need 5 of any given colour equipped. Its still amounts to a gate.

I can hear the screams now....What about my awesome hybrid build that I love to death! The tree system isn't going to remove the ability to hybridize at all. You will still be able to combine skills and points across all 3 trait lines. The cost of doing this will likely be a capstone. But as mentioned above we already have this gate in place now with our trait setup. Our trait panel just might not "look" exactly like it does now. But as Turbine dev's pointed out in the twitter chat, the classes will feel and play mostly the same but they will be better. Forgive my paraphrasing :)

This class revamp shouldn't dramatically affect our core gameplay. In fact changes like the trait sets and not having to visit a bard every time you want to retrait, and giving our secondary roles a dose of reality (ie making cappies and champs viable end game tanks) I see the proposed improvements far out weigh any side effects I am seeing now.

But, and this is a big huge but, while Turbine did a reasonable job of presenting us a first pass of information there is simple not nearly enough information for anyone to leap to any doomsayer conclusions that its going to ruin the game or ruin any given class. Let's give Turbine a chance and see what they implement in reality.

Cheers,
Jeremy

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Originally Posted by andracy

- 6 anthems: Anthem of War, Anthem of the Free Peoples, Anthem of Prowess, Anthem of Compassion, Anthem of the Third Age, Anthem of Composure. Each one with diferent buffs so is NOT possible to remove any of them, each one having an excelent designated role.

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Yes, they all have a designated role, but you can't use all of them in every fight. Pick the ones you'll be using.

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- 11 skills Musical Mentoring: 11 skills. Ok, remove them :(

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These will be viewed along the same lines as travel skills. They won't count towards that ~20.

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- 4 Tales

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Pretty sure you can only use up to two at a time, and most only use one. Just pick the one you want to use, drop the rest.

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So we have ... 50 skills. Wow. And now dear producers, you want to tell me that in Helm's Deep i will the same awesome healer with under half of those? How i will do that?
I need 3 ballads + coda. I need 6 anthems. So 10 skills. I need one short healing skill, one bigger one, one aoe, one hot, one emergency and one legendary healing skills. 16. My bubbles. 18. Outside combat rez, incombat rez. 20. Dam, now i will need to stop. Ok so that is it? No feign death? No utility skills like Song of Aid, Call of Greatness, one skill for removing corruptions, my tales, one skill for fear, one skill for intrerupt inductions, my skills for dps, no more mentoring music who did minstrels to be such an loved class? All the micro management from anthems combined with coda for diferent buffs?

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The 20 is a loose number, and I doubt you frequently use all the skills you say you need.

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Originally Posted by andracy

Dear devs, dear Turbine, allow me to express my negativism about these changes. Why? Because at the end you will only make us taking white/black decisions instead grey.

Some guy wrote earlier that ... "You'll be able to do almost everything you did before, but with much more potency". But if you enter more in details, that will not be more potency, will be easier, less thinking, less options, less complexity. Right? Let take MINSTREL class. This class took many rewamps along the time, i leveled my main when was no WS and now after 4 years i think i learned lot about him. This class is still very versatile and complex, not as wardens or LM's but still awesome.
Ok, last rewamp on minstrels was when RoI was launched. So we presume our class had been *fixed*, right? So how we will be able to do almost everything we did before, but with much more potency?
Please let me remember dear devs about SOME of our skills.

- 6 anthems: Anthem of War, Anthem of the Free Peoples, Anthem of Prowess, Anthem of Compassion, Anthem of the Third Age, Anthem of Composure. Each one with diferent buffs so is NOT possible to remove any of them, each one having an excelent designated role.
- 3 ballads: Minor Ballad, Major Ballad, Perfect Ballad. You cannot give up on those. WIll not remember Cry of Chorus.
- 4 Call to War: The Melody of Battle, Call of Oromë, Call of the Second Age, Call to Fate.
- 7 Healing skills: Raise the Spirit, Bolster Courage, Inspire Fellows, Triumphant Spirit, Chord of Salvation, Fellowship's Heart, Soliloquy of Spirit. Will not remember Rally and Enlivening Grace.
- 11 skills Musical Mentoring: 11 skills. Ok, remove them :(
- 6 Songs: Song of Subdual, Song of Restoration, Song of Soothing, Song of Aid, Song of Distraction, Symphony of the Hopeful Heart.
- 14 other skills: Herald's Strike, Coda, Noble Cause, Story of Courage, Still As Death, Story of the Hammerhand, Gift of the Hammerhand, Piercing Cry, Invocation of Elbereth, Cry of the Valar, Cry of the Wizards, Call to the Fellowship, Call to Greatness, Call of Eärendil
- 4 Tales

So we have ... 50 skills. Wow. And now dear producers, you want to tell me that in Helm's Deep i will the same awesome healer with under half of those? How i will do that?
I need 3 ballads + coda. I need 6 anthems. So 10 skills. I need one short healing skill, one bigger one, one aoe, one hot, one emergency and one legendary healing skills. 16. My bubbles. 18. Outside combat rez, incombat rez. 20. Dam, now i will need to stop. Ok so that is it? No feign death? No utility skills like Song of Aid, Call of Greatness, one skill for removing corruptions, my tales, one skill for fear, one skill for intrerupt inductions, my skills for dps, no more mentoring music who did minstrels to be such an loved class? All the micro management from anthems combined with coda for diferent buffs?
I know, you will make us bots maybe. One skill for healing, one for buffing, one for dpsing. And i am keep telling you, the only diference between Lotro and WoW is the lack of instant aggro and instant healing. Or i am wrong?

Dear devs, that was just me, an lousy easy class, minstrel. I really dont wish you to upset the advanced classes, like LM's and wardens.
Each update, Lotro became more casual. That was the way you intended. When you did all the *Let talk about rewamp* topics on lotro forums, i was thinking that hey, they will fix the old and bad skills or update them (like strenght of man who is healing you 2-3k when your morale is 10k nowdays). But it seem i was wrong.

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They have already clarified that it is actually around 20 not 20 as an absolute. They have also stated that this around 20 number does not include things like stances or travel skills. So looking at your list of 50 I can immediately see 15 that fall into the list that wont be counted, leaving you 35. I would also guess that out of combat rez would be in the list of not counted. Next we assume that certain skills will only appear when you spec for dps or heal. So of the 34 skills you have on the table is it not conceivable that you could find 25 for when dpsing, knowing that you have limited your healing ability more than you do now and 25 for when healing knowing that you have limited your ability to dps more than you do now and overlap them enough to get to 34?

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

Yes, they all have a designated role, but you can't use all of them in every fight. Pick the ones you'll be using.

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- i pick them all, i may want more dps and less mittigation, next day i am bored and i want more extra healing, because i like making choices. Turbine does not need to oblige me how to do it because is not an single way to do it, right? I want to be able to choose

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

These will be viewed along the same lines as travel skills. They won't count towards that ~20.

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that is why i said, remove them

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

Pretty sure you can only use up to two at a time, and most only use one. Just pick the one you want to use, drop the rest.

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I change the tales depending how my party is going in combat, for example very short on power, no LM, i change for heroism.

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

The 20 is a loose number, and I doubt you frequently use all the skills you say you need.

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That you doubt or not is not what i really care dear sir. I sugest to go and heal ToO T2 Saruman challenge and we will talk later about how many skills I USE WHEN I AM HEALING. PLease dont just express your opinion about the way I AM doing.

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Originally Posted by Qwyxzl

They have already clarified that it is actually around 20 not 20 as an absolute. They have also stated that this around 20 number does not include things like stances or travel skills. So looking at your list of 50 I can immediately see 15 that fall into the list that wont be counted, leaving you 35. I would also guess that out of combat rez would be in the list of not counted. Next we assume that certain skills will only appear when you spec for dps or heal. So of the 34 skills you have on the table is it not conceivable that you could find 25 for when dpsing, knowing that you have limited your healing ability more than you do now and 25 for when healing knowing that you have limited your ability to dps more than you do now and overlap them enough to get to 34?

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Sir, more or less, 20 or not, if i want to hit an piercing cry even in healing mode because is an dps race and that 500 damage i think it will count, i would like to be able to do it. What is wrong with that?

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Originally Posted by TinDragon

They're changing things because classes have become stale. I can assure you they're not doing entire class revamps simply because two classes can't tank.

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i never meant that, i meant this as an example of why they are changing...not the only reason

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Originally Posted by andracy

- i pick them all, i may want more dps and less mittigation, next day i am bored and i want more extra healing, because i like making choices. Turbine does not need to oblige me how to do it because is not an single way to do it, right? I want to be able to choose

[...]

I change the tales depending how my party is going in combat, for example very short on power, no LM, i change for heroism.

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You already will be able to. You can switch builds freely so long as you are not in combat. Spec up at least two builds (with more available if you really need them) and you are good to go, even if that LM does leave. Again, we will all have to wait and see just what skills we have are going to be gated in the tree system and which skills we can keep for free. Until then, we should all try to keep optimistically calm. :)

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Originally Posted by andracy

- i pick them all, i may want more dps and less mittigation, next day i am bored and i want more extra healing, because i like making choices. Turbine does not need to oblige me how to do it because is not an single way to do it, right? I want to be able to choose

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So if the next day you're bored and want extra healing, retrait! You're not permanently locked into those skills. That sounds like the freedom to choose to me.

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That you doubt or not is not what i really care dear sir. I sugest to go and heal ToO T2 Saruman challenge and we will talk later about how many skills I USE WHEN I AM HEALING. PLease dont just express your opinion about the way I AM doing.

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So my opinion means less than yours because I haven't ran an instance with you? Fun fact: you're not the only group that has ever run T2C Saruman.

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Originally Posted by Elemiire

I agree, but yet, they keep introducing things like Universal Healing potions, store morale potions, store bubbles, store defense tomes, etc.

That's fair, but they could introduce new mechanics, they could increase the damage, they could decrease ours, etc. I am really not against a nerf, but this is beyond a nerf.

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it's true they have been slow adding new mechanics. more to the point, there making mechanics almost pointless at times. corruptions still have every class able to remove them, but some are much, much better than others. when 1 warden/minstrel can do that whole mechanic in BG LT, something is a little off...

intterupts have been ######## lately. simply because they have reduced the damage of those punishing skills (U10 again...) way to much. but tbh, RoF first boss had that skill that hit 12k+ at times... but they make tanks able to intterupt... why? surely that should be someone elses job? sure they nurfed warden now but that fight was very heavily challanged the warden, not so much others that could be doing those jobs.

aggro is derpy lately. and this is player side. it's so easy for tanks to get aggro at times. we have 6 players in a group, why arn't one of those an aggro management roll? bugs the #### out of me when I played hunter that so much was on the shoulders of the tank, yet I could play with one hand and breeze though the instance as tanks dragged me though.

the only real mechanic I can remember they've introduced, is bubble. yet we still don't have a bubble healer. ok, it'll look silly, but why not have blue minstrel able to spam bubbles for a bit of depth? just something new, we haven't seem bubbles used to the best of there ability yet.

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I did; it's the way I see it from what I've seen so far and from experience with other games that use this 'tree' mechanic.

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it'll be no less cookie cutter than some classes are atm. at least we'll have 3 viable trait lines that we can switch at whim and not just 1 line and maybe 2/3 traits we'll jiggle round...

I'm actually not at all worried about this because of how stale I find the buffet system now. we're basically in a derpy tree system with set bonuses. compared to the newer MMO's I've tried recently (neverwinter/SWTOR/Scarlet blade (yes I'm weird)) the only hate I had with tree's was the ability to not retrait on the fly and have save slots. other than that skill gating, massive potency changes and whole rotation changes didn't brother me.

if they can make 3 viable lines, where with each line you kinda choose a secondary, so your choices are more like; choose spec -> main traits -> secondary line/more into main line, I can actually see this being deeper than live.

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Originally Posted by Granlif

Fire oil and Light oil have always been available from the Hunter Trainer. I always keep a full stack of 50 each!
It might not last as long as the crafted oils, but they work fine. :)

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But... those don't go to 11!

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Originally Posted by Elenluin-Menelloth

My question I asked and didn't receive an answer was
"Why aren't you going to allow us to change only parts of the tree to respec? It's one of the better aspects of the current system."

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It is a concern a bit for me. I remember when I was in WoW, the cost to retrait was relatively expensive (at least while leveling up). So players would think very carefully about where to put each point. Later if there was some new fashionable build players would be reluctant to try it out. If someone was not traited correctly for a particular role they would be extremely reluctant to retrait (and players were much more picky than here about people having the correct builds). People would not experiment but just copy what the top players were doing; which often would be a bit strange because the builds good for end game tiered heroic raids were not at all the same builds that were good for soloing or more casual instances.

So I'd hate to see this cause players here to be afraid to experiment and everyone starting to use cookie cutter builds only just because experimentation is too expensive.