that actually wasn't what I said, try againQuote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
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that actually wasn't what I said, try againQuote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
Crawfishing, like I said. But you're right, time to move on. There is no credibility left in your argument. To you, *Different = the same* is a true statement. Boggles the mind. Seriously. It is a waste of time to try to discuss something with someone who makes two contradictory statements and claims they are both true.Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
Except that you can play it again later if you change your mind, without paying more. Although skyrim is a bad example since it's steam based and your game might vanish in the future. But just this year I have played games that were 15 years old, without having to seek permission or pay more fees, though I did have to hunt down some patches and peruse new mods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Radbug
Well besides the answers already given, pragmatically realize that this statement was originally made some time in the past before the details had been worked out within Turbine. Ie, it was a marketing statement, possibly something a dev said in an email or in a meeting was filtered through someones buzzword filter, polished with some PR, and presented to the public. Meanwhile the mechanics of everything were undergoing daily change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silmelin
Actually, last night, I told the members of my kin that still log in to have a memorial service for their characters next Sunday, as when they log into the game with Helm's Deep, they will have the same names, the same gear, but they will not BE the same characters. They will not know how to play them after four years, they will not work the same. Its kinda like a person who gets a massive head injury. Yeah, maybe they will seem the same sometimes, but if you know the person really well, you can also see that he is not the same person and never will be.Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
These characters ARE us, in some respect, and outgrowth of our personality. To make them SIMILAR to what they are now, would be like looking in a mirror and not recognizing who we are. Scary.
Since your opinion is otherwise, I hope you are right, but I really dont see it as simple as you seem to view the situation. Even the pride a person took in assembling the pages of their Moria books are now wasted, as you only need a certain number of points to get deep enough to get those tier traits now. All that work equals a trait point, not a skill that gets powered up to legendary status. I guess we shall see.
But this happens with many expansions and updates, and it happens across many MMOs. The only difference here is that it is a larger than usual change happening at once. Ie in the past they drastically messed with the Warden and Minstrel, and Warden had some troubles before it stabilized as well. The level 50 Minstrel of today has very little resemblance to the level 50 Minstrel of 6 years ago. Same for all classes really, we just don't see it as much because we've had incremental changes for the most part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dworin
The problem with the expansion now is not so much that the characters are changing, but it's about how they are changing.
Trait revamp as head trauma. An apt analogy. Sometimes when I look at the trait trees, I feel like I'm losing sensation in my face and limbs. It takes 3 beers or 2 cocktails to get my brain to accept what's happening. And all those bears. Why are there always so many bears?Quote:
Originally Posted by Darlgon
Are you in Chicago by any chance?Quote:
Originally Posted by dietlbomb
Ok.. nother silly question from the peanut gallery. When the warden got revamped by Orion, I have noted that it was update 6. Any idea what update this is? If I read right, this will be update 12.0? Based on this being 11.5:
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...Notes-Official
IN the old forums, I knew where to find it. Now.. sigh. it almost feels like its on another website. But, I only look for this kinda stuff once in while.
They still won't be the same characters. If they were, they would have the same abilities but with more to learn via the expansion. It is undeniable that by ripping out our present skills, re-arranging, consolidating, shuffling, removing, etc, that Turbine is taking our characters and replacing them with a different character with the same name and look. If they were the same characters, we wouldn't have to learn how to play them. We'd already know, because we know our characters. But the characters are new and we have to learn how to play them, starting over. To deny that as some have, is disingenuous at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohi
On a completely different note from most of this thread, Guild reputation crests/scrolls/carvings/etc have had their value reduced by around 40%, so if you aren't already max rep with a guild, use your cooldowns BEFORE HD goes live, and you will need about 150k of total rep based on current values in your vault to get to the new cap on release day. The new rep cap is 90k, but with the 40% reduction to values, you need 150k to get that, give or take a little. Enjoy the grind, and sorry for the late notice.
this really is not a big deal i don't see the issue i have 8 characters and even with the new values yes i did the math with the rep values i will maxed guild rep on all my characters when HD goes live stillQuote:
Originally Posted by spelunker
Yes, but a lot of people won't, including me. And many wouldn't have known of the huge reduction in the value of their existing patterns they have stored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen1981
Thanks spelunker for the reminder I need to go make more patterns if I want to level up my guild rep. :)
This issue is that it will now be that much harder for people to get a start with crafting guilds. If they wanted to make it harder to reach the new max rep on launch day, up the value on max tier. The implementation they have chosen means it will take new crafters several weeks longer to get to the point where they can start to work on the final tier of rep, particularly if they do it in the intended way of leveling up crafting in unison with your regular level gains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen1981
So, more than 1000 posts here, pretty safe no one will read this :)
But I felt that I wanted to share my feelings from beta. I'll preface this by stating I have pre-ordered. Unlike previous years I put it off for a while, but in the end I decided that completing the new solo content will provide sufficient value (for me).
I joined beta pretty early, but I have little time to spare for LOTRO, so I only had a very brief login before I had a hard drive failure which wiped out my Bullroarer install. But by that point reading the forums had produced sufficient negativity that I couldn't be bothered to reinstall.
In that brief login I was disheartened to discover that not only was the skill/trait trees quite an invasive change, but that in my opinion there were serious gaps in the design. Now sure, I've main tanked almost everything in the game, and have even been involved in a world first dungeon clear, but leaving it impossible to have 2 range pull attacks in the primary tanking tree seems to me to be a pretty obvious hole given how many instances have required multiple individual pulls by the tank to start. I am no Guardian prodigy, those are the other tanks who manage to pull off server firsts in-spite of me being in the group. I was left wondering how it was that things were in this state that even I was seeing what seemed to be gaping holes.
But on the positive side, most of the concerns I raised were resolved. I don't know if the same can be said for all classes, but on paper at least Guardians have improved over the beta process. Not that I am happy that anything was changed at all, but at least it is less of a shock to the system now.
I have confidence that completing solo levelling content will still be within my grasp despite the changes breaking a lot of what I am used to. I mean tanking guardians already don't take any significant damage in a lot of basic solo content and I've heard that hasn't really changed. Hence I'll be around with my wife (assuming she still wants to play after the Mini changes), levelling up as time allows, and then probably disappearing until next year.
As I mentioned above, I've been doing end-game content for a while. Maybe I've had no right to, but for several years I've managed to skate by with a ~50-100 hour investment once a year, and ~5 hours a week the rest of the time (and much thanks to my friends who sometimes put in many more hours to cover for my lack of time). That is all the time I can really spare (and with a child on the way it is only going to get harder to spare any time). This last year however, this has changed. Dropping raid locks and putting more high end items behind 1% or lower RNG gates rather than behind difficulty gates has had a serious negative impact on my enjoyment and ability to stay competitive with my limited time availability. This is where the real negative for me has come from. This expansion's main changes are in a completely different dimension than what I would have been interested in. Epic battles are still at an early stage, and maybe they will have less horrible RNG, but early reports I have been reading in the forums have not been promising. I also don't look forward to the increase in the amount of LI legacy switching I'll have to do to make an LI which matches with my specialization.
Well anyway, there is always the story... hopefully it is worth the pre-order cost, as I guessed it would be :)
The story and the landscape are as always impeccable, so if thats why you parted with your cash, then (in my opinion) your money will be well spent and I have no doubt you will get much enjoyment from the expansion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilps
As for your other points, yes beta started off in a bad way and while things improved over its course I think they only scratched the surface and evaded the real issues that were there. meaning the class changes were only ever going to be acceptable at best and in the case of some classes, slightly better than horrific.
End Game group content is the biggest casualty of this expansion ( and to a lesser extent previous changes such as the awful RNG loot system, you have my full sympathy with that nonsense btw) so anyone who uses end game content as a marker to whether an expansion is worth the price or not, I strongly urge them to get a beta key from facebook or wait till the 18th to take a look for themselves before spending your money.
I hope you and your wife can find something from this expansion that you can enjoy, if you group together through the landscape and epic story then I think you will be fine ( Minnie has or is having its dps rebalanced before launch, so a guard/minnie combo will now have enough dps to not make questing together a long slog).
All the best,
Andthelion.
Actually, you may be better off than most. Turbine has yet to fail to deliver a good story. Also, if you play as little as you say, you logged into little changes each year that you came back and had to relearn it. Your wife, well.. just that fact that players refer to the "Orion" minstrel or the SOA mini kinda tells you that that class has had some substantial changes, as much as my wardens. However, even those testers who survived those class changes previously are saying that the changes now alter the mini WAY beyond that comparison. Hope it works out well for you guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilps
Thanks for your input. It matches what my feeling the mostly casual player will feel on logging in. You know, or like the 9 other kin members, who, when I asked Friday night before our raid if they had been reading the forums said, "What new threads in the forums?"
Fine for those players on cap who have been stashing away westfold & eastemnet symbols ready for when HD drops, but I do pity those people starting out in this game who will now have a challenge getting sufficient rep so they can get access to the expert, artisan & master guild gear whilst it's still on level.Quote:
Originally Posted by spelunker
Can't see how that adds to the player experience, unless of course its all about leading players by the nose to the store.
oh please its still not a issue cause the materials are so easy to get they gotta make people log in somehow the game can't be easy at every turnQuote:
Originally Posted by spelunker
Exactly, crafting has never been "hard", its always been easy its just a matter of time, it requires no skill to find mats, and with the huge amounts of gold swimming about towards the end of rohan its been easier than ever to aquire them, agreed it may be more time consuming to cap out your guilds straight after launch, but its just as easy really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen1981
We dont even have to get off our horses anymore in Rohan to mine nodes, all you need to do is toggle on your tracker hit the right mouse button and the game does the rest, rinse and repeat for an hour and you can max the tier in an hour , especially after the changes with RoR that brought in processing. Which i believe are being expanded to the lower tiers with HD.
Getting max rep is not about finding mats, its about waiting for reputation items to come of comedown. You cant classify that as "easy" or "hard". If they actually wanted to make crafting more challenging they would make basic mats harder to find or implement a system with rare crafting mats, challenging side-quest, daily craft quest etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen1981
This is a way for Turbine to increase the usage of the store and slow peoples progression down, not making crafting harder. Encouraging players to buy more rep-accelerators, is the goal. I'm not raging about it really, because Turbine has to make money from somewhere.
Still, there will be issues for new players, or new crafters. They will be forced to use the store to get maxed reputation, if they want to finish and get capped within reasonable time.
Hopefully we will still be able to barter rep boost from skirmish, but I'm really worried they will remove that option as well. Also that wont help new players, they don't swim in marks like I do.
But yeah, it wont effect me much. I planned ahead and stacked up on all my crafters.
well i always make rep items ahead time way before they announced when the next xpac is comming out
Hey man, Kin Leader of Ramble On here, and I feel for you. We have lost over 75% of our kin. From raiding to 3 times a week, to raiding maybe once a week. But hey, everything is ok, you can still play this game solo.......................... ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Findulas
Interesting. Did you lose them in the past week?? I ask because you make it sound like they left because of the changes. I just like to clarify.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesm429
I'd suggest getting a second Cappy if you're having that much trouble with the raid. Or let the cappy see what else he can do in that situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Findulas
Thats not how I read it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palentian
I read that as because of recent changes to the game that have ruined group play, which are well documented since Rohan release, I am talking, RNG loot system, poor quality end game, FAs dropping in T1 instances at release, FAs being obtained from farming faceroll content like sambrog etc etc, the raid level gear dropping in faceroll content (GB, Annuminas ,Fornost etc), those are the reasons raiding kins have died away over the past year.
Now if you want a conversation as to whether HD and its Big Battles and the class changes are going to reverse that trend and breathe life into the raiding community then I am sure there will be many takers on that topic.
For what its worth my opinion is it will firmly seal the death of raiding kins once and for all, there is nothing in HD to inspire raiders to come back or stay any longer. And nor is there any promise of that changing anytime soon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen1981
So basically because it doesn't affect you it's not a big deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen1981
And the fact that Turbine "gotta make people log in somehow" is discouraging. Shouldn't we log in because of fun and interesting game play, not due to punishing players by reducing the value of patterns?
They tried that with Hobbit slot machines too and that didn't work as an incentive for anybody I know of. Especially me.
I was going to reply with something really snarky and then I went outside and realized it wasn't worth it. You missed my point totally and completely, but that's okay, lots of other people got it. Have a wonderful day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palentian
Thank you, I understand completely, but if I want to play a RPG I'll go back to Tomb Raider or Dragon Age. Oh wait, I can just wait a little while then LoTRO will be a RPG, I see what you're getting at there. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamesm429
True. But by your reasoning this has already happened several times in the past in this game. They removed/renamed/rearranged skills, they've make changes that meant you had to relearn how to play the class, etc. The problem today is that this is larger, and applies to all characters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dworin
(ie, if it was just warden and minstrel as in RoI then you'd hear players of other classes claiming that it's not a big deal and learn to deal with it; but because it's all characters at the same time we have all players at least noticing that things are changing)
oh no, I never downplayed the yoyo they experienced, I kept my head down and watch with dread hoping they stay distracted with the shiny. Some of us were selfish enough to just be glad they were screwing around with them not us...sorry about thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Lohi
Unfortunately this is not some tweaking or the like; this is akin to waking up after major surgery and discovering that you can no longer do certain things, and you have to learn again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohi
Some will adapt. Some will quit. I plan to do the best I can but if it turns out to not be fun, then....
I have a lot of negatives and few positives. But we'll see.
Thank You Findulas. I appreciate your view point in all this. I found your comments insightful and helpful. My main is a Guardian, my second is RK, third a Hunter.... and I am worried in different ways for all the classes. Somehow I survived all the changes in this MMO through the years and now these new changes.... well some comments don't need to be repeated. Everyone has used every adjective imaginable to describe HD and I get the impression those words don't truly describe what we are about to experience ingame in a few days time. I can also say our Kin has lost most of it's Members as well, for many of the same reasons you listed. HD may hit us (the community) as hard as the Orcs hit Helm's Deep itself in their Assault. A shame we could've saved that part for ingame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Findulas
I also wanted to say thank you for your forum name.... good memories your name brought to mind. A good friend of mine (of our Kin) used that name for her main character years ago, a friend that left LotRO due to real life problems and she is greatly missed in our Kin on Elendilmir. Just seeing someone else carry on the name brought a tear to my eye, and not an evil one either. Take Care.
The guard you may still be happy with. Some have been anyway. It's probably the 2nd least drastic of the batch(too much for me but some are coping). Particular if you preferred the OP line. Tank lines and the content for it, well least said about that the better. The hunter seems to be in an ok spot from external appearances(I don't play one nor tested). The RK...well depends what you do on your rk on live.Quote:
Originally Posted by gardavil
Quite. They want my money then they don't pull stunts like this. Destroy years of time and tons of money by replacing player's characters with a limited cartoon imitation and they will stop investing much time and will stop investing any more money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bendin
Yes, this is a hypothetical battle. And you want to know why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Findulas
Because there isn't any group content left where this would be necessary. This, to me, is the whole point.
If there would be any hard or challenging group content left in the game, I would be worried about the class trees. Since there isn't, why bother?
I strongly believe: every successful MMO needs something very challenging with the corresponding rewards on the end of the end of the endgame.
Where every player is challenged not only gear-wise but also the skill-set is checked to the max. Something maybe only 10% of the playerbase may complete.
Why? Because it's the motivation to get there, to be a top player on your server, just to show off that you and your kin are very good at this game.
The phrase "dumbing down the game" is something I heard very often in this thread.
For me, the idea behind trait trees is that every user should understand how to play, with a clear defined role, and the user should only get skills that are needed for that role, no more extra fancy stuff, that may confuse people.
And then there is not even content to play this role to the max, to master your class, just some metagames (called big battles).
But, this whole casual thing going around for years is not working out in my opinion. Even wow is declining because it's gotten to simple, to casual.
Just take a look at FF 14: ARR, it gives you a lot of possibilities to mix skills from other classes, the endgame is brutal, and people love it.
Yea from what I hear they just broke 600k subscribers. Not too shabby considering the issues it had with the 1st launch, that's a pretty big hole to dig out of. I'm impressed. Too bad I dis-like the FF IP :(Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxDetroit
I always run Sword and Board Tank, even when soloing. I love running a Guard that way. Only time I even use my Two Hander is while on warhorse. Looks like I better raise my shield and brace for Impact...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bendin
I dunno looking at the FF14 numbers i get a SWTOR deja vu.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxDetroit
I can only speak to the hunter class changes. Having tested them, I like them. Hunter changes may have to be revised and refined in future patches, but they're by no means a disaster and imo something for the better over the long term. I don't understand the complaints of "dumbing down." I have over 12 engaging skills I have to choose from in each line (counting the generic ones that are auto-granted for all hunters).
This is my personal theory: I don't mind the hunter changes as much as players of other classes because the hunter has never been a multi-purposed "super class" capable of things such as potent healing and damage at once. There are some people who will have a hard time (or will never) getting over the fact that their class may no longer be a "super class" any more. Welcome to the real world, sorry you had to come down to earth. Change is hard, but take a long, hard look in the mirror and ask yourself are you upset because of the change or upset because your class is no longer OP? There are complaints on this thread that the posters may think are devastating criticism but really confirm that the class system is becoming more balanced and working-as-intended.
Like others have said, keep an open mind and try things out yourself. Give yourself some time to get used to things. If you hate it, take a break and come back after a major patch or two or three.
Yes, these changes have to be tried for yourself. I'm glad you still like your hunter, I really am. Mine ceases to exist come Nov 18th with the removal of active control over all my skills. To me it is 'dumbed down' and now too boring with its simple 3 or 4 button kill-all rotations, to be worth paying money to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_toad
But tastes, desires and expectations differ so much everyone will have to try it for themselves, no-one can do that for you.
What is my 'simplistic and dull' will be someone else's 'streamlined and fun'.
Just try it before buying it because you may be thrilled or you may be dumb-struck.
Is there going to be an open beta? I thought they usually opened it up to everyone for a little bit pre-release.
They've gotten enough bad press already, won't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterion
"Any press is good press?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippa
I am not sure if people would calm down or be more upset if they actually got to try it. I guess it makes sense to just make them wait and find out on the 18th. One week away from release and the only thing that I can say with any certainty is that the forums should be interesting post release.
yea like you I don't think they are sure witch way it would blow either. I assume that's why this time around they didn't open it when the NDA dropped like normal. Bunker mentality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterion
It is essentialy an open beta as anyone can go onto facebook and get a beta key, and this I would strongly urge people to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterion
Only if you "like" it from my understanding (I could be mistaken if so please correct me). Seems rather odd if so you have to click "like" just to find out if you like it. I'm not a facebook person so really don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthelion
It really doesn't mean much to like something on Facebook. I believe you can unlike it if you don't want it to show up in your profile. I just checked their page and can't find the link. It was my understanding that those were only open for a short period and currently unavailable. BTW I got my beta key from the first round of the "Like" to beta campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippa
For me too, the implementation of the new RNG system was really the killer. The actual raid/fellow/small fellow content was whatever...i know people who did and did not like it. The way the instances were run was what i took issue with. In my opinion there was nothing more demoralizing than grinding for an item knowing a)there was an extremely small chance you would get that item b)there was an extremely small chance that your friend would get their item c) Most important to me...there was no challenge/feeling of accomplishment associated with running the content when you didn't get your loot. I don't think a game can function with loot as the primary carrot, but I could be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilps
I agree with your assessment, for the record. The hunter from an outsider perspective may seem in a good place i.e. it still does dps. However the days of putting thought into your rotations/traits are gone; no deciding where to fit your barbed arrow into your rotation. To me this is what is meant when people say your character won't be the same. The most meaningful decision you can now make on a hunter is a)roll my face kinda to the left b)Roll my face in a right-ish direction (I have yet to master the use of my chin in the rotation).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kongas
But hey, to each his own.
You know, it will be interesting to lurk here in the forums and watch the story enfold once those that share your opinion here will come to realize that, no, healers do not enjoy being healbots.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_toad
It is extremely shortsighted to tell them that pressing 1, 2, 3 over and over again will work out to them being "more balanded". They made it their pride and enjoyment to keep buffs up and assist with damage et cetera, as the content (well, the zerg-fest that were most of the 85 scaled instance) demanded (if you even can call it that).
But hey, maybe people are going to enjoy spamming "95 Fornost Fire, 5/6, LF Heal" all day long.
SNy
Healers do not enjoy being 1-2-3 healbots and I've been complaining about that from the first release on Bull for HD. What did we get? More powerful heals. No, I'm not kidding. The other stances however are unbalanced and also not enjoyable so my main class of minstrel will be shelved as soon as she does the epic and levels to 95. All 3 of my minstrels who are at 85 will be shelved... I do have other level cap characters, I just don't enjoy them nearly as much so won't switch to them until maybe Turbine realizes they botched the minstrel and someday fix it. I'll just park and move on. Especially considering the only content we get is Big Battles, which I didn't enjoy at all on any of the tests I ran. I hate feeling unnecessary in end game content.Quote:
Originally Posted by SNy-lotrolinux-EU
I have been trying out EQII with a friend and I'm liking it. I have a level 15, almost 16, high elf wizard that I'm having fun with (feels similar to the lore master here). The mechanics are interesting, the tree is less invasive, and if I keep enjoying it I know where my money will go.
Shame on you Myst. You KNOW they only do open Beta on updates, not on full fledged expansions. Go back to your Michael Jackson popcorn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysterion
A companion piece to my guide on the Trait Trees. What Choice Do I Have? A deeper look at the Trait Trees
It's really just me rambling on but someone might find it helpful I suppose.
It all sounds so very bad. Thank goodness I didn't order it! It just seems we aren't heroes anymore, we are the common rabble that someone else is suppose to protect us now. Very disappointing and sad to say the least. I hear that regular questing is now gated behind big battles too, We can only hope that this titantic fail will cause WB/Turbine to sell this to a competent gaming company with the foresight and resources to make it right again.
You must be a carpenter, because you just hit the nail on the head.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_toad
Yup, it's always the customers fault they dis-like a product change, silly us.Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
Hunter has always been one of the most super of classes. Easiest soloing by far, especially if they know how to use traps. There's a reason that it's the most popular class to play. I play all the classes, but since this game has started a small group of hunters have been complaining about how they're always being picked on by Turbine or that other classes are overpowered. And yet when some of them try alts on other classes they complain about how tedious they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_toad
If you mean be supporting the people who only ever play their class one way and one way only then yes he has hit the nail, but shock horror there are people out there who like to do whatever their class can, they explore all it has to offer , experiment, test, improvise , they use their imagination and find new ways of playing their characters and they find that fun and engaging, but hey I suppose there will always be people who look at those players with a tinge of envy, and instead of trying to do those things themselves they campaign to have a level playing ground by having the classes gutted out and dumbed down, thats why every soloer out there fought tooth and nail for access to raid level gear,FAs dropping in T1 instances, RNG loot system so they could run around the landscape one shotting any random mob they see, or standing in the bree crafting hall in all the gold geared glory. Thats why we ended up with the nonsense that was Hytbold and Wildermore and the nonsense that is Big battles. And thats why we have ended up with these pathetic 4 button hollow classes we are on the verge of getting.Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
Turbine have made the mistake of catering to people who whilst claiming to have the good of the game at heart are only really interested in the good of THEIR game and THEIR playstyle , sure they veil that with constant cheerleading at every decision they make so they come across as whiter than white and holier than thou, all that has succeeding in doing is driving away the players who actually really do care about the game as a whole, the players who understand that they sometimes have to put aside their wants and needs to allow others to have their's, those players understand that all playstyles need to be catered for to ensure the longevity of the game, and adopting a my way or the highway stance and blindly lobbying at every opportunity for the good of your self without any regard for the bigger picture and what other players are interested in spending their money on is a one way ticket to shutdown.
Anyway you win, congratulations, you have everything you ever dreamed of, but remember you reap what you sow, and come March next year we will see what crop there is left.
I agree with all you said but the fight is long over. We've lost and it's time to move on without any more rancour. LOTRO is dead, LOTRO-LITE will be here soon and it'll succeed, crash and burn or limp along regardless of what we say now. Just treat it as your ftp game and find something better to play until TESO or the latest Everquest comes along.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthelion
There's a large portion of the hunter player-base that didn't want the class to be derp-pen shot spam. Instead now our entire rotation is derp-spam...but i guess that solves it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohi
Most hunters' main issue was that a hunter min/maxed and played with a trait setup/rotation that was as efficient as possible, was still less desirable to bring to a raid than a burg, champ or RK. For a class with no other roles we should have been on the same level. Alas, I keep bringing this up like there will ever be a need to have such a rotation/trait set up going forward. No end game= no need to care.
And wait are talking about easiest landscape soloing? Do people still die at the hands of landscape mobs outside of escorting Lalia?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorwyn99
I know it must be very hard on you with hardly anyone having the opinion you do but that's no reason to sabotage someone else's post. I don't remember quoting one of the hundreds of responses that you replied with and trying to tear you down, but I still don't see you as the enemy I'll save that for the people that are really doing harm to this once good game. You are just a cheerleader for your side where as I'm not or never could be a cheerleader for someone I see as ruining the game I play. Find someone else to pick on I'm much to big to be scared of someone who used the internet for these lame tactics.
Don't worry about me i got my Vodka if i get too lonely and don't take it personally i was just bored and you had a nice hyperbole there(Yep Yep i love to use those too and Real Life Examples!). But really from what i gather you haven't tried the changes yourself yet and go on that rant from what other people said, don't you think you're in the end cheerleading too ?Quote:
Originally Posted by LaGere
And for all it's worth i understand that people don't like the direction the game is going or the class changes, i simply don't share the opinion.
You just want more people at Weatherstock next year. Which reminds me, which server is that again? If I will be creating an alt or so to test the changes, I may as well throw him on your server so I can maybe attend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorwyn99
Well of course can never have enough people for Weatherstock! That would be Landroval.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darlgon
Well put !Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthelion
Pretty sure that's related to PvMP, mostly. Hunters are the weakest freep class in the game for 1v1 fights. That's why they complain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohi
They also lack survivability and self-heals for challenging stuff, like soloing 3-man instances and similar (stuff I can do with ease on Minstrel, LM, Warden and champ, while a Hunter would get stomped). I guess it's also a problem how they only fill one roll effectively - ranged ST dps. Even if they do fill that roll more effectively than any other class.
But I never heard anyone complaining about Hunters being bad at normal landscape PvE or not doing enough dps in instances. We all know they're good at doing that.
Anyway, it feels like all classes are a getting a slight nerf in utility with HD, making Hunters weak spot less of an issue. Don't think my LM or Captain will be able to main tank + main heal + main support IP T2C (at the same time) after HD goes live, for example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaGere
Emphatically not true - there is no requirement to complete any of the big battles until after you reach Helm's Deep. What is true is that you need to complete the first part of the epic quest line to unlock the regular contetn - not the same thing at all.
Ah don't worry about your LM, until KoA gets fixed you can Tank/Heal/DPS BfE T2C, solo.Quote:
Originally Posted by clarabelle
Sorry couldn't help it, lol
And that's bad, I agree that it hurts hunters. However that's no reason to point to other classes and imply that it's good they were nerfed. Overall it's the game design causing everyone to want to be primary DPS rather than individual players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldin
I only mentioned that because in the past some hunters told me that as a minstrel I should not be able to solo quests as easily as they could. This started back in Shadows of Angmar, it is not a new attitude. In early Moria when so many players put minstrels on hold we were told to suck it up. Never mind that I have all nine classes or that I also have a hunter, those few hunters seemed to think there was some sort of rivalry.Quote:
And wait are talking about easiest landscape soloing? Do people still die at the hands of landscape mobs outside of escorting Lalia?
Sapience or any Blue Name really.
The Quickbar memory issue has been brought up several times and I haven't seen any official response, perhaps I've missed something.
This issue requires a 100 MC purchase on each and every character that does not use 1 Quickslot set to achieve basic expected functionality. It doesn't matter if they are F2P, Preimium, or VIP. In order to use the second Quickbar set, to place our general skills in the configuration we want for each spec we must not only purchase a Spec Tab but then leave it unused so that we can "despec" in order to get the memory to hold.
I don't mind that upgrades happen in the store at all. If I want to save a third spec and need to buy a new tab to do that, fine I have no problem with that. But what is happening now is we are being given a major system that is not working properly with the only fix being a store purchase and I find that simply unacceptable. On top of the store purchase we need to respec twice just in order to load a new spec, I haven't watched to see if that costs in game gold and if so how much.
The issue doesn't exist for players that keep all their General Skills in the same spot for every spec and stay on the same quickbar set, so I do realize this isn't an issue for everybody, but it is an issue for some.
I would really like to know if there is a fix or at the very least a workaround that will be in at launch, or if this is actually what is considered basic functionality and no change is expected. With Beta ending any hope of testing the fix or workaround has ended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beorthnoth
Isn't the epic quest line tied into the big battles? And if they are my statement would be entirely true. And why is any of the regular questing locked behind anything? Isn't paying for it enough to unlock it?
Apparently one of my post offended someone as I just got infraction from Sapience. My most sincere apologies to anyone if anything that I have posted has offended in any way shape fashion or form. I shall now desist from posting on the forums and just go back to merely reading them. Thank you all and have a wonderful day.
It seems to be difficult for some people to accept that it's possible to both love the challenging, diverse playstyle of the current system; to crave greater challenge and more intense content, AND to be happy about the LotRO class changes coming with Helm's Deep (and believe that these changes will bring better, more challenging content in the future). I've seen so many comments that imply that anyone who likes the changes must want the game dumbed down, must not know their classes enough to fully appreciate the implications of the changes, must be casual players, must not do any raiding, must spend all their time in Bree or on the landscape, must be incapable of learning or enjoying a class to its fullest extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andthelion
I don't know whether it's because people are frustrated and want to try to insult those who are in favour of the changes, or whether its because it's easier to attack a straw argument than debate a real player who has nuanced feelings about these things, or whether it's that people just honestly can't conceive of anyone with a similar outlook and playstyle as them arriving at a different conclusion on these changes than the one they've arrived at.
It seems that you're saying that that the people who are committed to giving these changes a shot, who are committed to sticking around with LotRO through this very rough patch, are people who don't care about the game, and are driving out those who do. It seems you're saying that supporting these changes, which are more in the spirit of the original LotRO of the early days than any other changes over the past few years have been, is tantamount to "blindly lobbying at every opportunity for the good of your self without any regard for the bigger picture."
What I view as "the bigger picture" is a LotRO that reflects the LotRO I knew and loved back in the SoA days. A LotRO that is balanced, smart, and with clearly defined classes and roles. These changes do seem to place the game well on that path. I believe that is for the best for the game and its players in the long term. Even the players who are resistant to the changes.
As for "lobbying", the only thing I've been lobbying for at all is for people to be civil, and give these changes a fair chance. I want an intense, exciting game with challenging content and tough multi-boss raids and rewarding end-game content as much as the next guy. That is, in fact, WHY I like these changes.
Actually, if you have the expansion then on the 18th you will be able to login to LotRO and play Big Battles without having to do the epic, or any other content. The only content that is "gated" in any way is the landscape content. You have to do a couple "run around and talk to people" type epic quests to open up the landscape stuff. It's pretty simple and doesn't take long.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaGere
Fair enough I can understand that. I've played enough to know how hard it was to level the non-dps classes a couple of years back, so I'm very much in favor of giving each player an avenue to complete similar content. What I am not for is homogenization of each class's dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohi
As far as I know the reasons we were given for these class changes were a) skill bloat b)homogenization between classes. What these class changes have given us is more homogenization between classes. Everyone can be main dps now. I understand the need for classes to navigate their way through the landscape. I don't understand the need for everyone save maybe 1-2 classes having top line dps.
HUH? what multi boss raid? Far as I know there isn't even a single. Or is this a hope and dream statement?Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
People on both sides of the argument are attacking those on the other side. It's not exclusively one side or the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
A people who dislike the changes but want to see Moria and will support a flawed product(to them)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dworin
B People who dislike the changes and will not continue
C people who like the changes and will continue
D those who like the changes, but are mad others don't, and don't believe they deserve an opinion or have a right to make ones own purchasing decision. They just spam people who voice concerns with points why they SHOULD like it
E those who dislike like the changes, but are mad others do and don't believe they deserve an opinion have a right to make ones own purchasing decision. They just spam people who voice praise with points why they SHOULD NOT like it
Welcome to a polarizing expansion it will get no better, just quieter <---IMHO).
NOTE: Moria was meant to be Mordor
Seems like a reasonably good summary to me. (though I'd replace Moria with Helm's Deep)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bendin
opps I actually meant Mordor lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Dworin
Hehehe, easy mistake to make. *smile*Quote:
Originally Posted by Bendin
This is a flaw in the game to be sure. People now are essentially choosing DPS as their main role, plus one other very minor role (heal,tank,support,cc) that they'll never be asked to do for the majority of the gmae.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldin
It actually wasn't that long ago when there was some challenging stuff. Ie, Roots of Fangorn had some tough fights; my lore master was doing 5 different things in the first boss fight, my tank found it engaging, my healer was sweating through it, etc. Granted, some groups found it relatively easy but quite a few were struggling.
Hope and dream statement. Turbine have repeatedly said that one of the reasons behind the changes is that the current system was causing huge headaches in creating new content. I choose to believe them, and believe that this will make it easier for them to give us more of what we really want in future updates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippa
Once more a half-noobish question about traits.
Let us say, toon "AlphaOne" is f2p and therefore some trait slots locked. They are unlockable for 95 TPs (current sale - some 71 TP). Let us imagine, this toon has 5 class slots and 2 of them unlocked, while 3 remain locked.
Situation A: toon unlocks all slots (it's sales after all);
Situation B: toon does not unlock.
What would change after Helms Deep launch? Would toon in Situation A get more points...or the same as in Situation B?
https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...des-on-ChangesQuote:
Originally Posted by NaktiesKarys
The Trait points and how you get them part.
Basically each bought legendary/class slots unlocks a specialization step in a tree after HD, the points to spend on a tree you can get are unaffected though.
As a side note there was the issue that legendary slot unlocks cost 195 TP on live while all spec unlocks in Beta cost 95 TP, so i'm not sure if it's worth buying any legendary slots, i'm also not sure if we ever got a clarification on this.
The epic quests at Helm's Deep require you to complete the battles, much the same as Mirkwood required you to complete skirmishes. This is right at the end of the expansion - by the time I got there I'd done pretty much all of the landscape content. Note that this time around, buying the expansion unlocks both epic and regular questing. Try to look on it the same way as having to complete the first chapter of Book 2 to unlock Moria, or the Mirkwood prologue. It's not like this is something new.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaGere
Some questions the new trait trees look complicated.
I am not buying Helms Deep yet,
When i log on day one of HD will i have to reset all my traits for all my alts
Will you be able to change a trait tree if you decide to try something else or is it cast in stone.
Thanks
First, the trees have nothing to do with HD. They are simply going live on the same day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atrixzia
Second, yes. You'll have to reset all your alts.
Third, you'll have 2 saves for different trait setups but you'll be able to unlock a few others if you need to with MC. You can set up 2 lines, and switch between them as long as you're out of combat. It'll cost a little silver each time you do, similar to having to spend at the bard. Only you wont' have to go to a bard to do it. If you look around there are a few guides on the changes. Some of the beta players spent a great deal of time creating class specific guides on the changes, so go check those out, too. They really did a great job.
Not quite true; it won't cost you anything to switch between your specialisations. It does cost silver to reset a specialisation if you want to tweak it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Palentian
Really? Huh. My bad. I could have sworn it cost to switch. Ah well. Thanks for the correction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beorthnoth
Everyone won't have 2 saves for different trait setups, it's my understanding that it varies depending on the players status. I believe FTP people will have only 1 save available to them, VIP/Lifetime will have 2, I'm not sure about the Premium players, but if I were to guess, they would get 2 as well. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Palentian
Premium players get 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurny
Though, to be honest I dont know which is more frustrating. Having to redo all of our traits, or having to redo all of quick slots. I'm surprised that the 'Save ALL of the quick slots' values wasn't reacted to much earlier in beta by the team given the reaction it seemed to get in the Q&A.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkor
This. . . Pure and Simple. . . This sums up the Changes to ALL classes. We are no longer Godmode Harbingers of Death and Destruction to the enemies of the Free Peoples and Allies of Sauron. As an RK I can no longer heal on par with healing traited RKs while traited DPS. On live every class can do almost anything. A good mini or RK or LM can even Tank for short periods of time. That is why the changes are taking place. To put everyone in their roles. Every class can DPS to a point, for the solo portion of the game. But for Instances, you wont be seeing many DPS Guards running around. Or Captanks. Or even Chanks. These Changes are being made so that classes Can fulfil their Primary Roles.
As it stands now, i haven't Changed any of my Trait builds on live in over a month. I don't need to. I can DPS or Heal regardless of trait set up, and the penalty to my DPS or Healing will be minimal due to my stats. The only thing i lack is Buffs, Buffed Skills, slight CDR (based on Legacies), and a Smaller Fellowship Heal. I don't need to retrait. My DPS falls only slightly. The basic "Best Builds" on any character has not really changed since Moria (yes i know there have been changes, but all in all, the basic classes have not changed. Even switching Warden to Agility based wasn't that massive of a change.). I think that we have been due for a change for quite some time. While the Tree set up is not my favorite (there is only one way to actually set up a Tree system and have it allow for hybrid builds and that's not the way this was implemented), that being said, there are some definite Pros to it. We are no longer Gods of Middle-Earth. Skill is actually required to be good. Yes, it's late in the game's life to implement this, but we are humans. We can adapt.
Also, i did extensive testing on low level toons. The impact at low levels, while small to the Level 85 who can afford to drop 500 TM/PM, to a level 10, +60TM/PM can be felt enormously. This will benefit the lower level people.
Narainadun since you agreed with this, What roles do you have on beta? 2? 3? The rk i played had two that were viable.
I now have one in HD for minstrel. Heal bot. So thanks for those well chosen words about my main class needing breaking because you think yours is OP
No adequate-secondary-comparable to cappies/LMs dps=no viable soloing=no capped healers as everyone gives up levelling through sheer tedium.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilkor
And good luck with doing any pre HD content. We haven't even got a ranged corruption removal at present.
No rez in anything except heals means no grouping except traited blue=boring. Triumphant Spirit is still on 45 sec cd. At 91, I am routinely getting 8-12k heals with crits/procs higher, in crafted 80 level gear, and using 85 second agers.. and thats a NOT God-mode?
(remember early moria anyone? no minis to heal then, GLFF was ful of LF healer-they were so boring. Just spam healbots-exactly we are in beta 6. Glad you liked that style. i didn't.)
Happy healer hunting folks- you'd better roll and auto-level our new god-mode healer and then draw the short straw for who plays it in any group. Because most vet minis will be long gone to interesting games, playing RKs LMs and captains, or dead of boredom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
Good sir... You have my thoughts in a reverse sort of way. I don't want to do big battles as I don't see them as worth my while. where I want to do epics until I run up to the point where its gated thru big battles. and I especially want to do landscape quests unless they are gated behind one of the other two things(epic line/big battles). It seems to me they are forcing you to complete stuff you don't want to do, to do regular landscape questing. I have a hard enough time understanding why they have gated the epic line behind big battles, let alone gating landscape questing behind anything at all. Choices? Where have the choices gone? Maybe I have misunderstood someone elses post I read but I have had two people quote me and reply with regular quests are gated behind epics and turbine themselves have acknowledged that epics are gated behind big battles. so I don't see a mistake on my end.
Lets try this then:Quote:
Originally Posted by LaGere
From here
https://www.lotro.com/en/game/articl...ep-quest-notes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dev Diary Helms' Deep Quest Notes
Or, this:
Landscape quests have never been gated behind epic, but gated behind the purchase of the new content. (IE, you could do Wildermere epic story, but not even be offered the landscape.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapience
Quote:
Originally Posted by cossieuk
Sure thing.
Requires purchase of the Helm's Deep expansion pack
Battle of Helm's Deep (Epic Battles).
Epic Story.
Western Rohan/Helm's Deep Content (Quests).
Does not require Expansion Pack Purchase
Class Changes.
Level Cap increase.
Additional Crafting Tier.
The Epic quest line requires you to do Big Battles, so you HAVE to buy Helm's Deep to COMPLETE the Epic. Hope that makes sense.
Not all will choose DPS as their primary role. My Guardian will be a Tank, my RK a Healer (because I actually enjoy RK as a Healer much more than I ever did a Mini), and my DPS/Support.... as I personally think they should be (a personal outlook and approach to playing my characters, I am not barking orders here). Regardless of whether it works well or not, regardless of what Turbine does to the classes beyond HD. I will play my characters as such, I will submit bug reports as needed, and I will try to have fun doing so. At least the Devs will have Data on how these Classes work when NOT tree'd DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lohi
I do see what you're getting at. I was just trying to set out the order in which things happen. If I can try to put it a little more clearly -Quote:
Originally Posted by LaGere
1. Landscape quests do not become available until you've done most, if not all, of book 11. I can understand that you don't like this. However, this has been used before by Turbine, in terms of needing to be some of the epic stuff to get into Moria and Mirkwood.
2. From that point, everything is opened up, though if you like a lot of flexibility in your gameplay, you should be aware that there's more than a little linearity in needing to complete some quest chaind to open up others.
3. Questing in the Helm's Deep area is almost 100% epic quests, and it is these that require you to participate in the big battles. I have heard rumours that these capters will auto-complete if you fail a battle 3 times, but I can't verify this.
I appreciate you don't like or agree with this. I was just trying to make it clear what is required at various points, and what the gating mechanisms are. I certainly wasn't trying to be combative, or to dismiss yours concerns as meaningless.
As was already mentioned, having to complete epics to get to landscape content is not new at all. There are other areas of the game where the same is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaGere
As for Big Battles, this is Helm's Deep. Would you prefer an epic quest line that does not in any way touch upon the battles of Helm's Deep? Should Turbine just rewrite the lore so that no one has to go near that content? The Helm's Deep section of the epic questline will necessarily include participating in the battles that took place in that section of the book. I'm sure that there were a lot of Rohirrim who dreaded doing battle there, but they went anyway, for the good of the realm. ;)
I agree, low levels are getting a real boost with this update.Quote:
Originally Posted by narainadun
Part of the problem of separating the Epic from the Battles is that this whole part of the story is almost entirely wrapped up in Helm's Deep. This truly is one of the pivotal moments in the main story. As has been pointed out, Epics were not always free. At one time you had to buy Moria to do anything there. The Epic line was made free AFTER the release. In Moria it was possible to separate out the Epic line from everything else happening in Moria. In Mirkwood, you HAVE to do the beginning area to unlock ALL the other quests in the zone. Heck, even in Angmar there are skirms that are part of the epic line. So this gating of content is not without precedence. There was no way to separate an epic line from EB because those battles are pivotal to the epic line. I'm not saying that the whole epic line is wrapped up in EB, but enough of it is (and should be) that it probably would have caused more problems to try and make PART of it free, but you have to pay for the rest. Imagine the outrage if that happened. And making all of EB free is unrealistic from a business perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaGere
This is how the game used to work though. It's not a new change. Epic quests used to be required to open up other quests; most obviously to be able to enter Moria or Mirkwood or east Angmar. We've also had epic quests gated behind landscape quests as well, we've had epic quests gating skirmishes and skirmishes gating epic quests.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaGere
That doesnt mean anyone has to agree with it, or like it, or pay for it, there have been expansions that did not require this way of doing things as well, so the argument "it happened before" is irrelevantQuote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
I would prefer something that was actually epic and not slow, dull and clunky, if their goal was to get helms deep into the game and make it fun, engaging and epic, then they have failed miserably, if their goal was to get it in cheaply, and then dress it up as epic, then hats off because they absolutely nailed that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
Yes, but they dreaded it because they feared the onslaught of thousands of orcs, with turbines Helms Deep they would have dreaded it for its dreary epic dullness ( oh look at that it is epic after all :)) instead of fighting off the invading army they would have been fighting amongst themselves over who had to go muck about with that godforsaken catapult, or who had to go watch the never ending meter fill up while they reload some rocks (allthough at least doing that means they get completely ignored by any orcs)Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
While reading through the thoughts regarding the class changes and the trait/skill trees has put a bit of concern in me (though less so than some of the alarmist posts had originally), I am most hopeful that if they've done as great a job on the Epic quest line and the landscape as they have previously, I'm going to enjoy this expansion.
I suspect it will take some time to get used to the changes. It will be most interesting to see what people think about them in a few months after we've gotten used to them and various balance issues and further input have been implemented.