XP Reducer

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Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar

I starting to look at the game now as EASY MODE (free exp, Rest exp, 25% weekend exp) Power levelers paradise.

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Total leveling time hasn't changed all that much - faster at lower levels, slower at the top end, and a modest amount longer for 1-60 now than it originally was for 1-50. In a game meant to be accessible to casual gamers, increasing total leveling time by tons due to level cap increases isn't a grand idea, so I pretty much expect them to adjust leveling speed whenever there's been enough additional levels to justify it.

Rest XP has been there since the beginning, and has next to zero impact on people who play a lot, with one exception: when the level cap is raised. It might be a good idea to consider setting Rest XP to 0 when your character is at the level cap, then letting it accumulate normally once it's raised.

As for "EASY MODE"... that's only really an issue at or near the level cap. Below that, you can easily set your own challenge level by selecting quests which are yellow/orange/red, by going after MOBs near your limits of ability, etc. If you insist on doing every last quest independent of its level relative to yours, then yes, the green/blue ones will be pretty easy. They're hardly required, though.

Khafar

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Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar

We want a Challange and the xp reducer would give us this Challange. We can do all the level 30 quests at level 30 then level up once we are done with level 30 quests.

I starting to look at the game now as EASY MODE (free exp, Rest exp, 25% weekend exp) Power levelers paradise.

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Really, one of the GREATEST things any MMORPG can implement into their game is more options and greater flexibility to cater to as broad an audience as possible, particularly when such options will have little to no impact on any other players who aren't interested in it. (And I'm referring of course to game play options, please don't say something absurd like "Well then they should add guns and airplanes to the game, because a couple people would like to see those").

The ability to regulate how quickly or slowly one levels and moves through the game is a degree of flexibility that can only make LoTRO an even better game. Of course, maybe Turbine may not think so if their goal is to move everyone through the lower content and into end game as rapidly as possible, for some business reason that trumps love of their work and the game (which would be rather sad). But even so, if they don't think many people will use the feature, then they will still move MOST people into end game rapidly, while attracting additional customers and retaining some additional customers longer. In fact, Turbine could quadruple the rate of XP gain to get people into end game in under a month, without effecting those people who don't want to do that.

Sure there may be a non-trivial amount of work involved to put any such feature in, but then there also *IS* a non-trivial number of current players and potential players who would greatly appreciate such a feature.

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Originally Posted by FoxFire

Sure there may be a non-trivial amount of work involved to put any such feature in, but then there also *IS* a non-trivial number of current players and potential players who would greatly appreciate such a feature.

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Until you can back up your claims about non-trivial, or at least substantiate the number you feel is "non-trivial", please stop using this crutch.

Right now, a developer, who has more knowledge of the numbers and development process, has shot down that claim several times for you to continue using it.

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Originally Posted by Khafar

Rest XP has been there since the beginning, and has next to zero impact on people who play a lot, with one exception: when the level cap is raised. It might be a good idea to consider setting Rest XP to 0 when your character is at the level cap, then letting it accumulate normally once it's raised.

Khafar

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I *AM* a casual player, who has been with LoTRO from day one. Casual in the sense that I don't play the game for hours on end, day in and day out, but not in the sense that I want an EASY game, or I want to level as rapidly as those who DO play very frequently. So... I almost always have Rest XP accumulated. It's very rare that I get to the point of no Blue Bar.

Presumably Turbine's intent was "We'll help those 'casual' players who can't play every single day to keep up better with those who play daily". However in their efforts, they implemented a system that is forced upon everyone. So that means that even though I don't play hours every day, I am being forced (to a degree) to 'keep up' with those that do. Why? Why is that being forced on me? A system of forced 'catch up', instead of an optional system of 'catch up' was put in, and no system of 'wait up' was put in. That's not thoughtful design.

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Originally Posted by Khafar

As for "EASY MODE"... that's only really an issue at or near the level cap. Below that, you can easily set your own challenge level by selecting quests which are yellow/orange/red, by going after MOBs near your limits of ability, etc. If you insist on doing every last quest independent of its level relative to yours, then yes, the green/blue ones will be pretty easy. They're hardly required, though.

Khafar

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What you are suggesting here (keeping the challenge level up by only taking on yellow/orange/red content) means that a LOT of content needs to be skipped. If one does such content exclusively (or primarily) then they will rapidly accumulate XP, as not only does that content issue much more XP, but it may require multiple tries to succeed, with each try accumulating large amounts of mob-kill XP. This of course results in leveling much faster, which means more and more content becomes trivial and no longer a challenge. So to keep up the challenge level you have to skip even more content to go to the challenging stuff. It's an upward spiral and by the time all is said and done, you're level 60 and have skipped huge portions of content.

Does this sound reasonable?

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Originally Posted by DarkCntry

Until you can back up your claims about non-trivial, or at least substantiate the number you feel is "non-trivial", please stop using this crutch.

Right now, a developer, who has more knowledge of the numbers and development process, has shot down that claim several times for you to continue using it.

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Sure. The number of people alone who've spoken out in favor of this idea in all these many threads, over all these many months, is in my opinion, non-trivial. These forum participants don't even come close to representing the number of non forum participants who would likely value such a feature, let alone the currently non-LoTRO players who might be attracted to a feature that allows them to self-regulate their challenge level and advancement through the game.

The secondary beneficiaries of this feature, those who don't use it but benefit from the small number of players who do use it, is non-trivial (because almost every player can benefit from any small number of players slowly progressing through the lower levels and are therefore available to help out those who are working on quickly advancing through the lower levels, in every gaming capacity).

And... the fact that several other MMORPGs out there which have implemented similar features indicates that they've somehow come to the conclusion that the benefits and beneficiaries of such a feature is non-trivial. It's unlikely these games inherently attract a much different breed of gamer than does LoTRO, and if anything LoTRO would inherently attract more of the breed of player that wants to slowly progress through the game and truly ENJOY THE JOURNEY, as opposed to rapidly getting to end game.

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Originally Posted by DarkCntry

Until you can back up your claims about non-trivial, or at least substantiate the number you feel is "non-trivial", please stop using this crutch.

Right now, a developer, who has more knowledge of the numbers and development process, has shot down that claim several times for you to continue using it.

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Oh, but floon is just a liar who wants to "win" :rolleyes:

Fact is DarkCntry the topic is called XP Reducer not developer or development. READ the TOPIC XP Reducer.

Here what I will see when I am able to play the game again. My system is not working One gpu was running 90 to 110c. Due to air flow issue. I will be max out on Rest exp. that I did not need.

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Originally Posted by Reximus

What other games have it? WoW just recently added it, but did so more to fix another problem then for the community that wanted it.

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But this is like saying LotRO is only a follower, and should only add new features if other games have them. Who cares what other games do, this is an independent game, with many players who never play other MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Khafar

Rest XP has been there since the beginning, and has next to zero impact on people who play a lot, with one exception: when the level cap is raised. It might be a good idea to consider setting Rest XP to 0 when your character is at the level cap, then letting it accumulate normally once it's raised.

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I think this is how it works now. As soon as you add the expansion you've got no rest XP bonus. But it really only takes a couple of days to max out the bonus I think.

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As for "EASY MODE"... that's only really an issue at or near the level cap. Below that, you can easily set your own challenge level by selecting quests which are yellow/orange/red, by going after MOBs near your limits of ability, etc.

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There's a trap here though. If you only go after yellow/orange/red quests, you will run out of quests in the zone much sooner and have to go to the next harder zone, etc, until you end up wondering why there are no quests to do. Those who stick to blue/white seem to have lots fewer troubles with the quest "gaps".

Here what made me mad when I started my Hunter/woodworker and find a Recipe. By the time I able to make it. It was useless to my hunter. I can say the same thing with my other toons.

I never played wow. But wow got alot of there info from Books like Lord of the rings, The hobbit. Like Elfs, Dwarfs, some Monsters. So wow use info from books.

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Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar

Fact is DarkCntry the topic is called XP Reducer not developer or development. READ the TOPIC XP Reducer.

Here what I will see when I am able to play the game again. My system is not working One gpu was running 90 to 110c. Due to air flow issue. I will be max out on Rest exp. that I did not need.

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And what is your point? This fact, you see, is not what is being questioned, only the methods to which FoxFire continues to debate them. A developer for LOTRO has an infinite higher knowledge than a player does when it comes to the cost vs reward basis, this same developer has stated time and time again that it doesn't warrant the inclusion, where-as FoxFire has continued to rally against this developer and even to the point to which they started to player character assassination in that this developer doesn't know what they are talking about.

Now, it doesn't matter if this thread was about XP Reducer or Why is the sky blue, when a person who has intimate knowledge of the source of the thread chimes in and states that it's not within the realm of addition, then the posters in such a thread should take note of what has been stated and then work from there. They shouldn't say that because the person only deals in a specific department is incorrect in their statement and preach on to how there's a huge number (see: non-trivial) when it has been stated otherwise by those who actually know the numbers.

See, my friend, no one is discussing the developer or making this thread out to be about the developer, only that the developer has stated MULTIPLE times that the cost vs reward and the numbers desiring the XP reducer does not warrant it's development. And that IS what this thread is about.

And if you don't like the Rest XP, then don't go randomly killing mobs.

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Originally Posted by FoxFire

Sure. The number of people alone who've spoken out in favor of this idea in all these many threads, over all these many months, is in my opinion, non-trivial. These forum participants don't even come close to representing the number of non forum participants who would likely value such a feature, let alone the currently non-LoTRO players who might be attracted to a feature that allows them to self-regulate their challenge level and advancement through the game.

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That's the real crux of the matter. It's your opinion that the number of posters is non-trivial... and the rest is conjecture.

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The secondary beneficiaries of this feature, those who don't use it but benefit from the small number of players who do use it, is non-trivial (because almost every player can benefit from any small number of players slowly progressing through the lower levels and are therefore available to help out those who are working on quickly advancing through the lower levels, in every gaming capacity).

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Again, this is a matter of your opinion... and some conjecture.

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And... the fact that several other MMORPGs out there which have implemented similar features indicates that they've somehow come to the conclusion that the benefits and beneficiaries of such a feature is non-trivial. It's unlikely these games inherently attract a much different breed of gamer than does LoTRO, and if anything LoTRO would inherently attract more of the breed of player that wants to slowly progress through the game and truly ENJOY THE JOURNEY, as opposed to rapidly getting to end game.

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Actually, it seems very likely WoW attracts a different breed of gamer ;).

That aside, we're left with an argument that Company A must make the same product decisions as Company B - which is not the case. Z4s versus Festivas, for shorthand.

Once more, for the record: I agree that some sort of feature in this vein would add value. But that's only part of the equation. Adding features almost by definition adds value.

The bang-for-the-buck analysis, though, can't be performed on these forums. We simply do not have access to the amount and kind of information necessary. Conjecture aside, we do not know (and cannot know) how many items are on the list of possible features, what the cost would be to implement each of them, what the benefits would be to each of them, how many players each would affect, how many devhours there are to divvy among them, etc.

Someone who has access to a lot more of that concrete information than we do has indicated that currently, this issue does not meet enough criteria to make the cut. To be clear, he never said it was cut in stone, or that the situation couldn't change; in fact, he offered an alternative approach that might have some traction. That this thread got his attention at all is actually a positive sign that Turbine could be receptive to the idea when the bandwidth is available. Practically speaking, though, that is not going to happen while in the throes of developing/testing/etc. on a new expansion.

It seems the best approach to keeping the idea viable would be to keep it civil, and try to expand the basis for including it. Don't just sell the feature's value generally, or assume it's obvious; give concrete and practical examples of how it affects real players (some of that is present in this thread, but it's being lost). Don't be afraid to admit not everyone will attach the same value to it as you do - just as you may not see the value in other proposed features for which someone else argues passionately. It's not a weakness to embrace diversity, and reflects well on someone who can. Be willing to consider alternative solutions and compromises that will accomplish the goal. Don't mistake passion or opinion for facts, but do use your passion for persuasion. Investigate the other examples, and show how those implementations might work (or be adapted) to this game instead of just pointing to them in general. Those are the kinds of strategies that work in other arenas, and at the very least couldn't hurt your case here.

No Lomeloth FoxFire has a good point. I hear alot of people go I wish there was people who are same level so I can do this or that quest. They dont get alot of exp. When you have a level 60 doing a level 20 quest. I use alot of my low level toons to help them. The XP Reducer would help Them aswell as me.

And now, let me put my example of a personal experience wherein I would have been glad if some form of this feature had been in the game.

I'm on the opposite end of the equation that others in this thread have encountered: I'm the slowpoke who's been outleveled. My playtime can get pretty sporadic depending on work and other social obligations. Some weeks, I'll be on every night and during weekend days too. Others, I'll barely get a chance to check my character's mailboxes (which I have a tendency to use as overflow storage of sorts ;)).

Some kinmates formed a group of new characters soon after MoM came out, with the idea we would conquer Middle Earth together. After some rerolling so that we were not all running Wardens and Runekeepers, we managed to get to 20 before our radically different playtimes caused our levels to diverge irretrievably. Now some of those characters are 60, and others are spread out everywhere from 23 up (mine is 32 at last look). Naturally I can't guarantee everyone who leveled quickly would have slowed their progress so the slowpokes could keep up - but I know some would have, because they said so. And I would certainly not have dallied as much on that character if there had been a way to meet in the middle.

Just one concrete example, from a different viewpoint.

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Originally Posted by Celt_Ainvar

No Lomeloth FoxFire has a good point. I hear alot of people go I wish there was people who are same level so I can do this or that quest. They dont get alot of exp. When you have a level 60 doing a level 20 quest. I use alot of my low level toons to help them. The XP Reducer would help Them aswell as me.

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There are a lot of reasons someone might not find a person at the same level for a quest. Even a slow/no exp solution will never completely address that complaint.

Yes, a high level character doing lower level quests means little/no experience for them, and having a high level character help a lower level one cuts the exp and challenge for the lower level character. I've not argued otherwise, nor have I said there would be no value to either. I'm merely pointing out there is no evidence, other than anecdotal, for gauging the impact.

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Originally Posted by floon

You'd be surprised by how many orders of magnitude you overestimate this.

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I'm one of those few who favor this option. BUT...

Before you add this, I'd love to first see:

• The Tower Hills
• Mailbox icon includes unread mail summary in tooltip
• Multiple mail attachments
• More connections between existing regions (e.g., LL to ND or Shire to EL)
• Yet more wonderful revamps of existing content! (Plug for Orion)
• More group content (possibly a minority here as well)
• More choose-outcome type quests (like poaching quest line)

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Originally Posted by BINKLEY1

Before you add this, I'd love to first see:

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People say similar things a lot. But there is more than one person working at Turbine. The features and changes are not in a list that have to be done just one at a time. If there was, hypothetically, a person that worked on this change it would not be the sort of person who'd be pulled away from developing a new zone.

Frak!

It appears that I am required to accept Siege of Mirkwood, even though the increased level cap will trivialize the Mines of Moria and take away a lot of the adventure I did not get a chance to enjoy.

I wrote to Turbine stating that I did not want Siege of Mirkwood at this time. They responded by saying:

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With your account being on a multi-month plan, you're set to receive Siege of Mirkwood for free when it's released in December. I don't know of any way that we can take away this status. We apologize for being unable to accommodate your requests.

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I can't change my account status because changes in status take place at the expiration of the current plan.

This has just been one frippen frustration after another.

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Originally Posted by FoxFire

I'd be interested in knowing where Turbine derives its numbers from.

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Wow. Are you saying that you know their data better than they do?

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Originally Posted by Nymphonic

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Originally Posted by FoxFire

I'd be interested in knowing where Turbine derives its numbers from.

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Wow. Are you saying that you know their data better than they do?

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Yes Nympho, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying.

Get real.

I was saying precisely what the words written express.

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Originally Posted by Tiempko

Frak!

It appears that I am required to accept Siege of Mirkwood, even though the increased level cap will trivialize the Mines of Moria and take away a lot of the adventure I did not get a chance to enjoy.

I wrote to Turbine stating that I did not want Siege of Mirkwood at this time. They responded by saying:



I can't change my account status because changes in status take place at the expiration of the current plan.

This has just been one frippen frustration after another.

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You know what is really MOST sad about all this Tiempko, is that for people like you and me and likely most of the other supporters of a feature like this, is that we are far more likely to be the ones who TRULY love this world that Turbine has created. We are the ones who truly appreciate the art and majesty, the beatuy and intricacy of what Turbine has put together. We want to take our time traveling through it, enjoying and appreciating each detail of the world, its lands (which we of course have always wanted to be even MORE expansive), its people, its stories, its history, etc...

And at the same time we want our characters to have meaning, to be out there in the wild dangerous lands of Middle-Earth on arduous adventures, taking on challenges that the 'ordinary' people are unable or unwilling to do.

Many (if not most) of those who simply want to power level or race to max level and end game, who are hyper focused on gaining XP and levels and stats and gear, I'm guessing are more likely to view this as much more of a game than they do a living, breathing world (and work of art on the part of Turbine).

While granted it *IS* a game, for which one can speak on the merits of slower XP gain and leveling in its own right, one would also think (particularly given the loving attention put into this effort by Turbine) that the Developers would consider this "world" they've built to be a labor of love, a masterpiece, a piece of themselves, that they WANT to be appreciated, adored, and savored.

And ultimately what this boils down to, is that the population of people who truly 'get' Turbine's Middle-Earth on a whole esoteric and artistic level, who truly want to immerse themselves in their wonderful creation, taking the time to absorb it and appreciate it, are the one's being told "Sorry... business interests dictate that we cater exclusively to the majority of players who want to be rushed through the game, and those of you who really love and appreciate our work, who want to savor it, who want to be challenged so you feel ALIVE in it, you can go suck on a lemon."

It makes you wonder how most Dev's REALLY feel about that.

Now, just to head any objection off at the pass, please keep in mind I am not saying ALL hyper-levelers fail to share in this deep appreciation, or that ALL slower levelers do. I do, however, believe that if you were to take a survey, that a far greater proportion of those who want to take things slowly are those who have that 'special love' for the Middle-Earth Turbine has created.

Hay Tiempko I think you should edit your Frist Op Post and add This for it make valid Points. You wrote it.

Originally Posted by Tiempko
Most moral systems prohibit bearing false witness against others.

The truth of the matter is that the OP:

(1) Wants to log in to play a character (e.g., Meadowlarke Sweetweed, Bounder of the Shire), which means that decisions are based on a character's point of view, not on "metering out trash kills vs. quests to vary the leveling rate."

(2) Wants to get to know his character - its strengths and weaknesses - by playing it for a while at a particular level, challening himself and seeing what the character is capable of.

(3) Plays with his wife and as a member of a kin and would like an opportunity to use his character to help members of his kin when his wife is not present without gaining XP that would destroy the balance between his character and his wife's character. This issue is aggrivated by the fact that the OP likes to play minstrels whose services are in high demand.

(4) Has a character in a static fellowship - six characters who adventure together - who would like to spend some time away from the group to pursue some deeds or quests to acquire particular vitues without destroying the balance within the group.

(5) Would like to create a couple of characters that are bound to a particular region. One would be a 10th-level Bounder of the Shire who he would use to help new players who start in the Shire. The other would be a 15th level warden who lives in Buckland and leads Nature Walks for the benefit of those who are frustrated by the Old Forest maze.

(6) Would like to play quest strings from start to finish without suffering a boring and anti-climactic ending due to being force-leveled while working on the string.

(7) Likes a challenge, which sometimes means attempting a quest multiple times, where - because the quest is challenging and above-level - tens to result in huge quantities of XP that then force him to level, which then ruins the objective of winning the quest through player skill as opposed to character power.

(8) Has noticed that there is a huge ballooning of content at Level 50 and the only way to experience this content on level through multiple apps is to suffer the tediousness of leveling those alts through the same Level 1 through 49 content over and over again.

(9) Would like to be proud of the titles that he earns by earning them when they are challenging to earn, and finds no value in a title earned by single-shooting a bunch of grey monsters or completing a stack of grey quests under the most boring circumstances imaginable.

(10) Has noticed that slayer deeds and quest deeds experienced at a challenging level generates tens of thousands of XP - enough to level a character all on their own.

(11) Thinks that if a developer went to the effort to create a bit of content, that it is a sign of respect to the developer to explore that content.

(12) Is amused by the fact that players who belittle him for wanting to run a character through 100 different quests once are people who think that the height of entertainment is running a character through the same (end game) quest over and over again.

(13) Notices that eng-game players seem to have a lot of fun exploring on-level content without gaining XP that would force them above the level of the content - and well imagines those players would scream in protest if Turbine raised the level cap and the power of the players while only creating new content at levels that would be gray to those higher-level characters. They would see just how hollow the claim, "You can still do the new content, even if it is gray" really is.

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Originally Posted by Tiempko

Frak!

It appears that I am required to accept Siege of Mirkwood, even though the increased level cap will trivialize the Mines of Moria and take away a lot of the adventure I did not get a chance to enjoy.

I wrote to Turbine stating that I did not want Siege of Mirkwood at this time. They responded by saying:



I can't change my account status because changes in status take place at the expiration of the current plan.

This has just been one frippen frustration after another.

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You are seriously upset about getting SoM for free, because it'll 'trivialize' Moria content? Really? So, here's an idea: Keep doing Moria content, from now through when SoM launches, until you complete it and are ready to move on. You still have over a month to do a lot of Moria content, and in that time you should be able to clear a good percentage of the quests without leveling at all. Whatever is left (if any) when SoM launches may level you up some, but even if you get to 65 on it, you certainly won't have made it 'trivial' at all.

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Originally Posted by BellusDuFenna

You are seriously upset about getting SoM for free, because it'll 'trivialize' Moria content? Really? So, here's an idea: Keep doing Moria content, from now through when SoM launches, until you complete it and are ready to move on. You still have over a month to do a lot of Moria content, and in that time you should be able to clear a good percentage of the quests without leveling at all. Whatever is left (if any) when SoM launches may level you up some, but even if you get to 65 on it, you certainly won't have made it 'trivial' at all.

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My main character is not anywhere near even STARTING Moria.

Shortly after I purchased Moria I realized that I had made a huge mistake in that Moria triviallized almost all of the Agmar content added in its various free releases. That was when I started asking for an XP Slider and stopped playing as I waited for the slider to be installed.

(Then Book 7 came out. Not only did I NOT get a slider, Turbine forced my character up two levels by changing the leveling chart. They did not even have the decency to ask, "Would you rather keep your current level by having us reduce your XP to maintain your current status?")

(THEN we met with week after week after month of "bonus XP" that would have trivialized content even faster if I had been adventuring during that time.)

(THEN we met with a contest rewarding kinships devoted to hyperleveling by offering prizes to those who leveled as many characters as possible as quickly as possible.)

When Turbine finally answered my question here as to whether we can get some way to stop or slow XP in the negative, my wife and I made plans to start adventuring again as best we could. We decided that we were going to ignore the rest of Agmar (Books 5 through 15), complete our class quests instead, and then move to Moria which we then hoped to explore.

And I asked Turbine not to send us Siege of Mirkwood so that the new increased levelling cap would not trivialize that content.

But we don't even get that.

hay Tiempko add the stuff you added on the other tread that I reposted on this tread to the Frist page. You pritty much give all facts why XP Reducer would be good for Family or close friends. I think it would give more of a understanding why you want it. I want it so it keep me challange even at low level doing many quests I am a player that dose deed and Crafting so doing all the quests in gray tiredsome.