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Can you please stop tossing veiled insults of the 'syndrome' type when describing people who can handle more then one class and play them effectively?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scirocco
When you start denigrating people who are willing, able and capable of playing more then one class the word 'syndrome' shouldn't be used to associate them as if they had some sort of negative disease. Just because you play only one class doesn't mean the rest of us do.
No, it's not reality, not when you compare it with the system before Ili's came in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scirocco
Lets discount leveling up, because yes, all players have to do that. Lets just talk about what happens when they get there. Before the new system, a player that reached cap, just needed to get a weapon, and max it - much like players that were already capped had to do when they got there before them. It has been that way, throughout all level cap increases.
But not anymore.
I'm going to type out two scenarios for you, in the hope that you will see what I'm getting at. Forgive me if it gets long, but I want to lay it out properly for you.
Lets pretend, that I am a brand new player. I have no characters at all, no high end alts to help out and I am starting from scratch. I roll a hunter called noobow. The next update is going to hit, March 4th 2016. We're also going to pretend that we each only have one weapon, to keep the numbers easy to follow.
You at present have your character at level cap 100, with various currency in the bank. Noobow has nothing.
All is fine, as expected.
Scenerio 1 - No Ili system.
You carry a level 100 normal weapon, which you use for various things in game where you play end game content. You had to put about 15 scrolls and 3 crystals into it, to get it to where it is.
Noobow does world content to level up, and picks up bits and pieces along the way. Doesn't do much in the way of instances, because she is leveling via questing. She is making sure to do all the content that is needed to get her class points and virtues as she goes.
It's March 4th 2016 and noobow hits cap. The next update just hit. The level cap went up to 105.
You at this point, need to deconstruct your weapon, get a level 105 weapon, and add 15 scrolls and 3 crystals to it to max it. Easy.
Noobow also now only has to get a level 105 weapon, and spend a bit of time doing end game instances to earn enough currency to get some tidy gear and to put around 15 scrolls and 3 crystals on her weapon - to match where you are at. Easy.
Outcome. Yes, she has work to do when she caps, and that is to be expected. It is reasonable.
Scenario 2 - with Ili system.
You are at cap level 100 and you carry a level 100 fully maxed imbued weapon, that over two updates has accumulated a grand total of 86 empos and 12 crystals. You had 6 months to do that, so plenty of time.
Noobow does world content to level up, and picks up bits and pieces along the way. Doesn't do much in the way of instances, because she is leveling via questing. She is making sure to do all the content that is needed to get her class points and virtues as she goes.
It's March 4th 2016 and noobow hits cap. The next update just hit. Level cap remains at level 100.
At this point, you will be needing another 43 scrolls and 6 crystals to take your weapon to the next level - easy.
Noobow however, needs to get 129 scrolls and 18 crystals, as well as grind for gear to get her to match where you are. She will have very little in the way of skirm currency, if any, and probably won't even have seen Gondor at that point, as she is forced to go through every inch of Helms Deep to get her class points. Not so easy.
Outcome - While you are moving along that horizontal plain, accumulating as you go, the new players that haven't even arrived at cap yet - the grind for them is growing before they even get there. By contrast, before the Ili system, that didn't happen, they just picked up a weapon and had to grind one update's worth of grind to catch up with you.
Look i thought for a while for something deep to say, but it's 2 am here so Brittany is my spokesperson on this issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt8VYOfr8To
Back in SOA (which really was better!!) the game was all about running content (which was excellent) with the chance of getting some nice loot - fun was had by all. Nowadays the game is about repeating tired old content such as Spambrog etc, doing Big Battles or pay-not-to-play to upgrade a weapon in order to even more tired old Spam content. Difference between the two models is chalk & cheese.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnenna
Yes, this I know :) I hear it from players that have played since those days all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes
I wish I played back then too. I wish even more, that it could revert to that, so us more new players could experience it. I've heard that it was tough, and for those of us that have not experienced it would see it as a massive jump in play style - most likely to mega-death because we have not played on that level before, but God, it would be sooo much fun to try it.
I'd much rather die to fun, than live through boredom.
Meanwhile - Noobow went off to play Wow.
Can I assume you don't realize the inherent offensiveness of this kind of language? The entire tendency of your post sounds like you are congratulating yourself on having tons of time and being very foresighted and very efficient in your play, while those of us who have other demands on our time and play for pleasure are inefficient, spendthrift, incompetent, foolish, and just not worth much in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scirocco
I am going to assume you don't mean it that way. I really hope you don't, and that it's just that you are so involved with the game that you aren't looking at it (in this discussion, at least) as an element of one's life, and not the primary reason for living.
One big reason people don't play before work and don't play for three hours a day is that they have to budget their time. That doesn't mean they are inefficient -- just the opposite, in fact. It does mean that the ILI design primarily benefits players who have few other demands on their time, or are willing to spend quite a lot of money in the store.
Now, it is true that the ILI design presumes that people are not going to max their weapons immediately. This was stated when it was announced. (That's really the point of "the weapons grow with you".) People have chosen to max them quickly (as anyone could have foreseen). My point is that it's not reasonable to say that it's quick and easy to max the weapons. And it's really not quick and easy if you play multiple characters.
Apologies, I missed this part of your post, and I don't want to leave it unanswered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scirocco
There are lots of ways they can address catch up, for new players or alts.
Up until now, there have always been level cap increases, which came with new weapons of the new level to ensure all characters could stay within realistic margins of one another. That would work now as well.
If they raise the level cap to 110, then all those that have worked to max their Ili's, would just carry on with them. No breaking, no finding new ones, just carry on with the current system. Those that haven't worked on an Ili at that point, could pick up with the Ili system and start at level 110. They would still need to do the same amount of work as the people that already have level 100 Ili's to get them maxed, but they wouldn't have to do two update's worth of backlog just to catch up. Alternatively, if the level cap stays constant at 100 they could introduce on path level 100 Lis with each update, where at any update, that weapon, if imbued at that point, will always only need the same amount of scrolls and crystals as all other Ili's to take it to max, and a cap should be set on the number needed for each update. That way, people that carry alts, and new players, could keep up, without making it so that players that only have one alt, run out of things to do. It needs to cater for all, not just players that run one character.
That's a couple of proposals up for consideration. Maybe other people here could come up with more alternatives.
Thanks so much for your post. Couldn't agree more. The current end-game structure is awful, a huge insult to longtime players and a serious barrier to the game's growth. After getting to 100, I've contemplated quitting, but I ultimately love the lore and community.
As others have mentioned, most people don't have the luxury of playing every day, let alone three hours a day.
The imbuement system is terrible. Expenses for scrolls and crystals are out of control. There is nothing challenging (and hardly anything exciting) about BBs or marks farms. I yearn for a return to lvl 50 or lvl 65 cap, when raids and raiding kins were necessary. I argue that it should be feasible for even casual players to max out their armor and weapons. As OP pointed out, it will take YEARS for most players to max out (all supreme essences, max dps and max legacies). In the status quo, having multiple toons is untenable for almost everyone. In addition, I can't effectively have multiple sets of LIs (eg AOE and tank set up, for my champ), which I think was one of the strengths of the LI system when it was released with Moria.
I bet....to avoid the gap between new chars and grown-up chars they introduce new "better/higher" LI when they increase level cap......for example the "better" ILI will have more levels unlocked on startup as the current ones so you will need less scrolls to max it out......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnenna
Unfortunately, there's no going back. Based on my MMORPG experience for the last 18 years (I start counting with Ultima Online in 1997, and do not include Diablo, Neverwinter Nights, and other earlier games), you can only find that sort of experience once per MMORPG. You have to go to a new MMORPG to repeat it.
Likewise, I agree with you that under the old system LIs were just another form of discrete, discardable, and skippable gear. It was the discardable element that caused heartburn in so many players (i.e., "LIs were supposed to grow with us, not be trashed every 5 or 10 levels!").
As I said before, I don't see Turbine going backwards, and turning ILIs back into discrete, disposable gear, especially when the whole point of the imbuement system was to make them non-disposable. They will continue to grow with us as we progress (regardless of whether gain additional character levels), so we'd best think about them in a similar fashion. Hence my agreement with some form of "catch up" mechanism.
And Jillymala, my apologies if you were offended by my use of MCCS. I've used MCS as a tongue-in-cheek joking reference for years, in kin chat and elsewhere, including this board, and yours is the first post I've seen objecting to it as offensive. But your point is taken, and I will henceforth drop the syndrome element. I have absolutely no problem or issue with players having multiple alts for whatever reason. I have always been a supporter of having multiple play styles in a MMORPG. Not once in this thread have I made an argument that players with multiple alts shouldn't feel the need to cap their alts for any reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnenna
In essence, it sounds like you're proposing different "on-ramps" along the ILI highway. Later on-ramps would start you further down the ILI highway, closer to where the new max tier levels are. For simplicity's sake, this could be a simple token that you apply to an ILI fresh after imbuement, and that sets all the tiers (and IXP) to a particular point. I can imagine Turbine wanting to sell such a token in the Store. What would be an appropriate way to acquire that token in the game? How much effort should be involved, if any?
I like your approach because it also gives a decent framework to extend the ILI backwards. The current starting point simply becomes the Level 100.0 on-ramp. The difficult part here would be inserting the appropriate legacy values below the current Tier 1. Personally, I'd start with Tier 0.50 (corresponding to level 50), and proceed all the way up past 0.51, etc. to 0.99. (Yes, that's 50 or so sub-tiers.) Each tier would unlock for free as your character reaches that level. Players could convert any LI from 50-99 at any time, and the LI would become an ILI with unlocked tier caps equal to the character level (the starting point could be LI level). In essence, there would be on-ramps at each level under 100.
And so it should be that way. No alt, that hasn't already used the Imbued system at any point, should have to grind out for a time they weren't using it. That would be like making all new players grind every bit of Moria armour, every bit of ToO armour and everything else that "was" part of the "previous" grind - when they hit each relevant level. As long as the players currently already inside the Ili system are not affected, it would work just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samy1981
Imbued weapons were supposed to be optional, but they are far from optional at the moment if you have alt. Imbue and grind now (impossible if you have lots of alts), or forever play catch up later is the only option at the moment (also pretty impossible).
I wouldn't pay for it if they put it in the store - in fact I without any doubt, would quit out of principle if they did that. If I have an alt, that Turbine were quite willing to take my money for when I bought it, and that alt hasn't got time to keep up with a grind that Turbine have made so crazy (if you have alts), I'd expect those on ramps to come as standard for when I pick that alt up and start playing it. They cannot expect players to pick up an alt that hasn't been playing for a while (because we've been playing other alts) and then make us pay to bring it up to speed. The on ramp should be there, at any point, and on level with the current Ili level - then they work from there. So for example, say my burg, who missed the first update of Ili, wants to pick it up now. She should have the same work on that weapon as a player that picked it up on the first update. 42 scrolls and 12 crystals to max it. She didn't get any benefit by having it while it was there from the previous update, and she wasn't playing at that time, to grind it, so she shouldn't have to grind that out for old time's sake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scirocco
You wouldn't expect an alt that is level 50 to have to grind through all the gear of Moria and other expansions just to be able to catch up with those that have been playing at cap would you? No, you wouldn't, if they didn't play while those parts of the game were current and relevant, they can skip them (do for fun yes, but not as a necessity). They have to level up, but do all old loot content? Nope, doesn't wash.
At the end of the day, Turbine sell character slots, and they advertise them on splash regularly. Presumably, that is done so people will buy them, and "play" them. But, they're making that task a bit difficult with this new system.
Let's come to terms with the word Grind. I figure if you, the reader, are reading this thread then you will understand when I suggest you look the word 'grind' up in the dictionary. Looks to me that Grind means being forced to do something one would rather not do but will do in order to achieve the end goal.
I've been listening, for years, like 15+, players whine about grinding. My attitude has adjusted from 'OMG! Let me see how I can help you' to 'Then either work or learn to get by without that reward that you want'.
There are several ways to play this game. LOTRO is not the game I wanted but I've pretty much played it non-stop since Beta. That's minus the 154 days for the Elder Scrolls Single Player Games. All of them.
This is not my ideal version of the way I wanted the production and development of a MMORPG based upon the Lord of the Rings written by JRR Tolkien but it's ok, I can live with it IF they don't dumb it down too much more. I will do what I need to do in order to achieve my end goals in this game. However, there is no provision in the game for Kinship support, which is why I will not simply invite anyone who asks to join the kinship. Everything in the game can be done at some point by a single player if they know how to build their char and play their char. There are no more raiding instances like CD or the Rift. I pretty sure that the Moria XPak was the first and last of its kind in the game.
This game is easy. All you need to do is understand the rules. You want that -> go get it. You need a fellowship? Either join a Kin and bug everyone in there to carry you through or get use to PUGs and learn your character. You want to roleplay exclusively? There is a roleplayer's Channel so use it. You want to tell other players exactly how they should play? Become a Kinship Leader. You want everyone to change their names so it doesn't ruin your immersion into role-play? There is 'N' on your keyboard so learn to use it to toggle off names. You don't like the world chat? Turn it off so you don't listen to it. You don't want to deed but you the best char on the server? It is not going to happen. Simply. That's the way it works. You want the world and you want how you want it on a silver platter? Get use to being disappointed. Because when the DEVs finally dumb down the game enough for you to get what you want without any effort you and others like you will be the only ones there. The best players play for the challenge. They are not going to waste their time in a game where everything is given to whiners for no effort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilywarrior
And you're not going to get much more than a second glance when all you can do is step in and call people names. Now quit your own "whining" about how poor you think the game has become (yes, your a whiner too it would seem) and try adding something we don't all already know.
I don't want a silver platter, I just want a plate instead of being forced to eat off the floor.
Meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilywarrior
I could explain where the "just go get it or do without" falls apart in the Store era. But by now, if you haven't absorbed it, you never will.
Suffice it to say, not impressed with this outmoded, outdated, obsolete "argument." And I use that term loosely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnenna
I don't think the token should be given away without some cost. Perhaps 100 SoMs, 100 ASP, some amount of marks/meds (i.e., several in-game routes that would the equivalent of some low-level effort by the player of the alt).
I don't expect you to grind through all of the gear of Moria, etc., but I do expect you to grind through the character levels to get to 100. And since ILIs are the replacement for character levels, I think it's reasonable to expect some cost to skip the lower ILI levels, the same way there is some cost to skipping the lower character levels. And the ILI cost should be available in game.
I can guarantee you, though, that if a system like this is put in place, the token will also be available in the Store, just like ASEs, crystals, etc. lf you're that allergic to the Store as a general concept, it's time to get out of this game while you can, because I don't see that changing.
While I stick to my statement - the alts in question will not have had any usage of a previous ILi in that you could compare workload with an alt that has, I will concede, that I could live with 100 SoMs as a token payment. It would at least allow me to pick my alts up at some point and bring them up to speed instead of having to keep them on the shelf out of pure frustration. If that option were available, it wouldn't bother me if the token were in store either. I have no objections to anyone taking paid shortcuts if that is what floats their boat - as long as said shortcuts remain totally optional and not forced down our throats by making things very difficult without them. Me personally, I wouldn't buy that token, but that's not because of any allergy to the store. I use the store a lot, but I don't buy character progression of any form, ever (Oh I tell a little lie, I did purchase 3 starlits once - for someone else that didn't have enough TP and really wanted them). I sub to play, and I will spend TP on all kinds of fluff. I will even purchase the odd slayer deed boost now and again on my mains (completionists) for the nasty slayer deeds - because they don't need any virtues, they are maxed out on them all (not just the slotted 5 - I mean all), so progression isn't a result. I will put my hand in my pocket for expansions (have done, for more than one account), and for special purchases on the LOTRO Market, class steeds, and whatnot. But I will not pay for character progression - that IMO is something that one must earn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scirocco
LOL it's so entertaining watching people try to actually DEFEND the indefensible grindy snorefest this game has become.
Look, we have a new progression model at cap - no more level cap raises, instead they seem to want us to progress by leveling LIs and gaining trait points. When someone in the game says (as many, many have) "I'm not going to bother getting all my trait points/maxing out my LIs" they are effectively saying "I am no longer invested in progressing in this game."
Turbine should be worried by that, the players should be worried by that.
Not quite. 'Grinding' in the context of MMOs means repeatedly having to do something non-fun (or at least something that will cease to be fun after the first couple of repetitions) in order to achieve some goal. The word 'repeatedly' is important. Having to do something once is not a grind no matter how unpleasant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilywarrior
Most dictionaries won't list that exact meaning, but that is because most dictionaries were written before MMOs existed.
Do you accept that the Store is influencing the design and applying upward pressure on the grind (eg., 84 Scrolls of empowerment upon first incrementation of the system instead of 21, 42, etc.)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scirocco
Indeed. It's essentially: Look at the new scenery, oh, and we just moved the denominator on your Legendary Items. Have fun doing the exact same thing you did for the last six months to bring the numerator up to match it.Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
I'm really worried by that. I'm really worried that I'm one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by frickinmuck
All this talk about grinding...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrbsd1oPfdQ
It feels more like this when alts think about catching up :)Quote:
Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ9wNT21c_s
What's more sad about it is the fact that we are getting higher amusement value from scouring the interwebs for videos that demonstrate our point, than we get playing the game right now. That speaks some pretty loud volume, but sadly, it's not being heard.