Champion Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by Mukor

Yeah tanks can taunt and finished, but it does matter if they need to taunt after 50k dps and multiply themself to 450k aggro or at 200k and multyply them self to 1800k. With one minute cd. a 450k lead is a small lead which is fast closed max 3 seconds for the lead and mybe a fourth for the aggro they build in this time.
Total ignoring, cause it´s offtopic, that the complete system must become overworked that tanking isn´t taunt relevant anymore, taunts need go back to a factor of 1.2 as emergency skill rest normal aggrobuild with an race as in old days. not now a sure lost and taunt, with the result that you can go afk in a few fighss.
So maybe they should reduce the crit chnace back to 5 or 10% for each dps class with a high multiplier so they will keep their dps.
But if they don´t solve the melee penality with the higher inc dmg/ less mits and be aware of more mechanics, they need to buff melee dps far above range, so a leader csan choose a hard to keep alive dps which hits as hell or a dps which survive easely.
So if they don´t reduce the melee penality theyx need to buff champs a lot for this they should make crited /devasted strikes ignoring all mits.

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Dear sir, you clearly do not know what you're talking about, and are mostly spouting nonsense. Please, just stop. Tank aggro isn't a problem, ìt will never be a problem as a result of crit luck, and as such, your whole point is moot. And even if it did work the way you want it to, your point would still be irrelevant. If you currently score a series of lucky crits, you would easily surpass the amount of DPS that you would (on average) put out with what I am suggesting. So actually, it's more likely for tanks to lose aggro with the current RNG element of crits being so impactful.

Crits/devs should ignore all mits? This is the point where is should be abundantly clear to everyone that we've left the bounds of credibility. Just stop.

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Originally Posted by Aeviternus

Crits/devs should ignore all mits? This is the point where is should be abundantly clear to everyone that we've left the bounds of credibility. Just stop.

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I gave this as an opportunity if they don´t make melees more surv. for sure with this they would outparse everyone else a lot, but with the disadvantage to die as fast as. So a leader can choose a stable slow figth or a risky with a lot of rezzes need fast fight.
the system we´ve atm is as bad as this insane proposal. melee do less dmg as range and get more, so if you don´t need aoe, there is no reason to take a melee. and even melee for aoe you can´t say, for this are rks aoe to strong/ not weak enough to ignore all other advantages as ignoring mechanics and less inc dmg (sources).

What they should change is armour 1:1 phy and tac mit: might 3 phy mas or 2 mas and 1 phy mit; vita adds for every class 1 tac mit ( so the morale factors would compansate the amount of inc dmg sources and the mits would be for all classes the same percentage of their cap for free at least from the 7 main pieces (shieldwearer mostly tanks would get some more). After this we can analyse more if it isn´t enough.

But for deep strikes I stay at my point, this must get overworked, it cannot be that we´ve figths without a tick and crits on mass there are no other dots which renew their count without hitting minimum once.

and for tanking I know here is no problem cause of the bad design with the taunts, but if you will reduce the crit multi and for this increase a basedmg, the basedmg must be get factor 2.5 to keep the dps and with this there is no single skill skill on tanks which generates this much aggro, so taunts will bekomme more relevant. and for this there arent enough´they have to much cd at least in cases of aoe in a minute you´ve make much more aggro with dmg as a tank could do with the multiply lead + self aggro.
with a lost after a high crit you can multiply more as if you must taunt instant the basedmg, the lead is higher and you can generate more selfaggro with this lead cause not everydmg from the dpser is as high as the first crit which you had to taunt.

20, 20 , 20, 20, 160 is better to tank as 50, 50, 50, 50, ... (completely without crit( absolutely no relevance)
firsat scenario tank generated 80 and must taunt the 160 which gives 1440 + the first 80. So we´ve 240 on dd vs 1520 on tank. so with the same time on hits we´ve 20 per timeunit on the tank and 48 on the dd with a lead of 1280 this will need 45.7 timeunits to overwrite it again.
second scenarion, tank makes 20 dd 50, taunt-> 450 aggro (+20), so tank again 20 aggro per tuimeunit dd is now on 50. now we,re on 9.4 timeunits to overwrite it again.
with a non crit releviant system, the aggrosystem for tanks must bbecome overworked for sure.

Just imagine All would to 10 times the dmg or even 100 times.
Champs would do 1 Million dps less. If 10k differences aren't high enough.
This 10% less dmg cause around 25% longer fights .

I really dislike AOE on my champ, and i find it boring and not enjoyable. The needed buff is to the Initial damage as people say in this thread, it isnt anything to do with crit mag.. difference between a crit and normal is huge , and if they buffed base dmg your hits overall would hit harder .If ypu played a champ u know u can almost always crit with emboldening tiered up for remorseless ,merciful 100%, and wild 5% + true heroics 10 in red .

Better idea to the bleed from red is to make it similar to rend , so you get the tier up and down like a rk writ of fire (for low dmg unlike RKs) but the armour value debuff to allow for more dps for yourself and the raid as a whole.
The class gives good support in a raid as it is already in red , with champs duel , blade wall and horm of champs, adding up to a -55% debuff of dmg (25,10,20)
Bleed is useless, it would be the logical idea to add a debuff instead of making a warden 2.0 with bleeds.

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Originally Posted by pinlu

I really dislike AOE on my champ, and i find it boring and not enjoyable. The needed buff is to the Initial damage as people say in this thread, it isnt anything to do with crit mag.. difference between a crit and normal is huge , and if they buffed base dmg your hits overall would hit harder.If ypu played a champ u know u can almost always crit with emboldening tiered up for remorseless ,merciful 100%, and wild 5% + true heroics 10 in red .

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Nice way to clearly demonstrate you did not understand what I said. But then, I'm not sure why you'd want to demonstrate that. I clearly said reduce crit mangitude, buff base damage. Not just buff base damage. The result of that would be less variance in DPS. Less variance is a good thing. It wouldn't change anything about the actual average DPS.

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Better idea to the bleed from red is to make it similar to rend , so you get the tier up and down like a rk writ of fire (for low dmg unlike RKs) but the armour value debuff to allow for more dps for yourself and the raid as a whole.

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That is, again, a terrible idea that wouldn't fix anything. The bleed gets refreshed before it ticks. It doesn't matter how many tiers there are, you will never get any value out of it so long as that is the case.

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Bleed is useless, it would be the logical idea to add a debuff instead of making a warden 2.0 with bleeds.

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Because one bleed = Warden 2.0, makes sense. I don't think you're wrong about adding a debuff, though. Maybe if Deep Strikes became the Rend Armour debuff instead, champions wouldn't be expected to go yellow just for the armour debuff as often.

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Originally Posted by Aeviternus

Nice way to clearly demonstrate you did not understand what I said. But then, I'm not sure why you'd want to demonstrate that. I clearly said reduce crit mangitude, buff base damage. Not just buff base damage. The result of that would be less variance in DPS. Less variance is a good thing. It wouldn't change anything about the actual average DPS.

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Reducing crit mag would be something to review post buffing base dmg, as the days of raw base dps seem to be long gone.Defo do agree about dps variance to make it more solid
DPS and not ranging based on RNG gods

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Originally Posted by Aeviternus

That is, again, a terrible idea that wouldn't fix anything. The bleed gets refreshed before it ticks. It doesn't matter how many tiers there are, you will never get any value out of it so long as that is the case.

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was purely a quick suggestion to add a connection to the armour debuff. Otherwise some people in yellow could slot both for two stacking armour debufs with brutal strikes to trigger it. Only seen the bleed as a big thing in PVMP after a death on low HP creep. Devs dont seem keen on buffing bleeds heavily, for example difference between build 1 and 2 of red guardian was massive

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Originally Posted by Aeviternus

Because one bleed = Warden 2.0, makes sense. .

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I should have said burg like cunning attack back in time of insane burg bleeds.
Could make them the same debuff , wouldnt be an idea to strip yellow of a debuff considering its an LI legacy would make some unhappy bunnys having to change their AOE weapon(s).

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Originally Posted by Aeviternus

I think you're showing clear signs of bias here. If you're going to say that champions need to practice their rotation every day, you can say the same about any class. Fire RKs don't have a simply rotation if you want to min/max well. Neither do hunters. Same goes for the class knowledge. It makes absolutely no sense for you to say that ranged classes only need basic knowledge. Fire RKs need to know how Searing Heat interacts with Writ of Fire tiers, they need to know which DoTs have the priority and design a perfect opener for themselves to apply all their DoTs as quickly as possible. None of that is any easier than what a champion has to do. So please, stop using this double standard to get your point across. Champions aren't more difficult in concept than any ranged class. More difficult to play? Perhaps. Not more difficult to understand.

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I have an Rk i only know the basics just a good rotation some tricks and thats it.All the time i do the same dps with mains and sometimes i am top with out even know about how searing works and staff.So yes in my opinion an RK with basic knowledge of the class has more chances to get a spot in raid than a champion and can do more dps or the same with a champion that have deep knowledge of his class.
If the champion have to know his class so well,swap weapons,changing damage type scrolls all the time and have the group setup for his favour (Beorning,warden,hunter,burgla r,cpt) with everyone to work for him so he can do big numbers and on the other hand a RK with basic knowledge and a LM and cpt only for support most of the times can do more dps than the champion much easier then something is wrong here.

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Originally Posted by Arandour

I have an Rk i only know the basics just a good rotation some tricks and thats it.All the time i do the same dps with mains and sometimes i am top with out even know about how searing works and staff.So yes in my opinion an RK with basic knowledge of the class has more chances to get a spot in raid than a champion and can do more dps or the same with a champion that have deep knowledge of his class.
If the champion have to know his class so well,swap weapons,changing damage type scrolls all the time and have the group setup for his favour (Beorning,warden,hunter,burgla r,cpt) with everyone to work for him so he can do big numbers and on the other hand a RK with basic knowledge and a LM and cpt only for support most of the times can do more dps than the champion much easier then something is wrong here.

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I agree that skill damage and animations should be normalised across weapon types, so that dual wielding or 2-hander is purely a choice of style. However, that's as far as I'm willing to go.

Now that burglar's dps has been increased champions have become even more useless dps class. A burglar dps does do almost the same damage easily as a champion who have practiced for hours and days. It is totally unfair. PLZ buff Champion damage for real now. Champion doens't have any other role than being the main dps melee class as burglars do other important things during the fights as well.

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Originally Posted by Aleziana

Now that burglar's dps has been increased champions have become even more useless dps class. A burglar dps does do almost the same damage easily as a champion who have practiced for hours and days. It is totally unfair. PLZ buff Champion damage for real now. Champion doens't have any other role than being the main dps melee class as burglars do other important things during the fights as well.

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Burglars do far more DPS than champions. And more than hunters and RKs, too. Burglars need to be nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Aeviternus

Burglars do far more DPS than champions. And more than hunters and RKs, too. Burglars need to be nerfed.

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Eheh! Already time to request NERF to burglar again. Ohhh, what a surprise. I don't think anyone could see that one coming, he he he !!! :)

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Originally Posted by Lord.Funk

Eheh! Already time to request NERF to burglar again. Ohhh, what a surprise. I don't think anyone could see that one coming, he he he !!! :)

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Well burglars is a support class mostly cannot be the top dd.They should have decent dps so they can have spots to 3 and 6 men instances yes but not do more dps than the dps classes.A top burglar he should be behind at least 20k of a top champion in single target and far more behind when aoe .So Eather nerf the burgs or give a 20% dps more to other dps classes as well.

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Originally Posted by Lord.Funk

Eheh! Already time to request NERF to burglar again. Ohhh, what a surprise. I don't think anyone could see that one coming, he he he !!! :)

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Yes, when a class does well over 25% more DPS than any other, nerfs are warranted. You can't help yourself but comment on everything, can you? If you don't want to take my word for it, how about...

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Originally Posted by Vastin

Hey folks! Thanks for all the responses. I'm going through and thinking about which bits I need to tackle before it goes live.

- Probably need to bring the DPS down from the current build a bit. I want it high, but I think it's a little over the top right now, especially as other bug fixes enter the picture.

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The guy who made the changes?

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Originally Posted by Arandour

Well burglars is a support class mostly cannot be the top dd.They should have decent dps so they can have spots to 3 and 6 men instances yes but not do more dps than the dps classes.A top burglar he should be behind at least 20k of a top champion in single target and far more behind when aoe .So Eather nerf the burgs or give a 20% dps more to other dps classes as well.

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This is not true. Burglars aren't a support "class". Burglars have different specs. Red line burglars are just as entitled to high ST DPS as red line champions are. However, currently, burglars eclipse champion by a very large margin. That is a problem.

Saying "he should be 20k behind" is utter nonsense. There's absolutely no reason for that. You're clearly biased towards the class you call your main. Don't try to make it sound objective.

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Originally Posted by Aeviternus

Yes, when a class does well over 25% more DPS than any other, nerfs are warranted. You can't help yourself but comment on everything, can you?



This is not true. Burglars aren't a support "class". Burglars have different specs. Red line burglars are just as entitled to high ST DPS as red line champions are. However, currently, burglars eclipse champion by a very large margin. That is a problem.

Saying "he should be 20k behind" is utter nonsense. There's absolutely no reason for that. You're clearly biased towards the class you call your main. Don't try to make it sound objective.

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Please speak a pit more nice i just gave an example of what it should be.We try to find a solution here,everyone should say their opinions and not call the others that say nonsense if we dont agree.

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Originally Posted by Arandour

Well burglars is a support class mostly cannot be the top dd.They should have decent dps so they can have spots to 3 and 6 men instances yes but not do more dps than the dps classes.A top burglar he should be behind at least 20k of a top champion in single target and far more behind when aoe .So Eather nerf the burgs or give a 20% dps more to other dps classes as well.

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There is no reason for red burglar to not have competetive DPS,it should just lose support/utility part same with every other DPS spec.Personaly I dont care if class can fill 2 or even 3 roles in raid there is 0 argument for specs to itentionaly suffer and are made useless just because of that.Every DPS spec should be within 10 15% depending on aoe st range melee dot burst and whatever utility they have tho imo it should be striped of dps completly.

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Originally Posted by Arandour

Please speak a pit more nice i just gave an example of what it should be.We try to find a solution here,everyone should say their opinions and not call the others that say nonsense if we dont agree.

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Yes, you can state your opinion, and I can disagree with it. You don't have to feel personally attacked. I'm not saying anything about you as a person. I think your idea is nonsensical, and you have no basis for it. Burglars aren't a support class, they have support specs. That doesn't mean red burglars are a support spec. They're a single target oriented DPS spec. As such, its DPS should rival a red champion's, or a red hunter's. However, Vastin gave burglar's far too much survivability. In light of that, their DPS should be lowered, or their defensives should be nerfed.

Sidelines shouldn´t be as effecti9ve as tha mainlines of other classes. not to metion more effective.
Butgs mainrole is support, so red should be in a good spot that they can level, but there is no need for burgs in the dpsing role.

We´ve two main dps hunters and champs which should be on the top, two with a douplerole, but cause they´re bought classes it is ok if they do nearly the same dps, but should be a bit less cause they got another spot they can do as well, would say 95% of the pure dps.
the other classes roles are:
guard-tank
captain-support
lm-support
burg-support
beos-(douplerole/bought class)-tank and heal same hear should be 95% of the pure. so tank is ok/heal a bit to much
mini- heal
rk (dr)-heal and dps (95%)-heal is ok dps compared to champs to much
warden-(dr) tank and dps-dps is ok7tank suffered trough the mechanics we need to go back to bpe worthable(then they would be ok)

sidelines should be competitive is bull#### they´re only given to ease leveling.

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Originally Posted by Mukor

Sidelines shouldn´t be as effecti9ve as tha mainlines of other classes. not to metion more effective.
Butgs mainrole is support, so red should be in a good spot that they can level, but there is no need for burgs in the dpsing role.

We´ve two main dps hunters and champs which should be on the top, two with a douplerole, but cause they´re bought classes it is ok if they do nearly the same dps, but should be a bit less cause they got another spot they can do as well, would say 95% of the pure dps.
the other classes roles are:
guard-tank
captain-support
lm-support
burg-support
beos-(douplerole/bought class)-tank and heal same hear should be 95% of the pure. so tank is ok/heal a bit to much
mini- heal
rk (dr)-heal and dps (95%)-heal is ok dps compared to champs to much
warden-(dr) tank and dps-dps is ok7tank suffered trough the mechanics we need to go back to bpe worthable(then they would be ok)

sidelines should be competitive is bull#### they´re only given to ease leveling.

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This is a complete fantasy that you made up in your head. You have no basis for this. Prior to Helm's Deep, you could say the game treated classes in this way. After Helm's Deep, each trait line is a unique spec, with strengths and weaknesses. You can repeat this fantasy in your mind endlessly, that doesn't change anything. I'm going to quote again:

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Originally Posted by Vastin

Hey folks! Thanks for all the responses. I'm going through and thinking about which bits I need to tackle before it goes live.

- Probably need to bring the DPS down from the current build a bit. I want it high, but I think it's a little over the top right now, especially as other bug fixes enter the picture.

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I want it to be high. What is the implication there? Go figure that one out for yourself, and get back to me when you're ready to admit that you are wrong about this.

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Originally Posted by Aeviternus

This is a complete fantasy that you made up in your head. You have no basis for this. Prior to Helm's Deep, you could say the game treated classes in this way. After Helm's Deep, each trait line is a unique spec, with strengths and weaknesses. You can repeat this fantasy in your mind endlessly, that doesn't change anything. I'm going to quote again:



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No, it´s the discription at the classselection.
The traitlines doesn´t change anything, only that some folks think they can donsomething else.
And even if not, so everyone should be able to do the same amount of dps with the same amoubnt of work and so on for the bother jobs, which isn´t given. So the point that hte specs counts are invalid. Everyclass has its mainjob in which it should be the best, and for the most classes except champs and atm minis it´s given.
But no matter which point of view you take there is a long way to finish it correctly.

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Originally Posted by Mukor

No, it´s the discription at the classselection.

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Which is archaic and hasn't been updated for years and years. How about you go read some dev diaries from Helm's Deep? Clearly states that blue captains were meant to be viable healers. Also that red guardians were meant to be viable for DPS.

If some ancient text at the character creation is what you base this on, that proves my point.

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The traitlines doesn´t change anything, only that some folks think they can donsomething else.
And even if not, so everyone should be able to do the same amount of dps with the same amoubnt of work and so on for the bother jobs, which isn´t given. So the point that hte specs counts are invalid. Everyclass has its mainjob in which it should be the best, and for the most classes except champs and atm minis it´s given.
But no matter which point of view you take there is a long way to finish it correctly.

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I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say. This isn't a proper paragraph.

Regardless, there is no downside to any trait tree being viable. Red line guardians should be viable for DPS, it would just make the game more fun for those who want to play a DPS guardian. There are no negative consequences. And, lastly... once again:

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Originally Posted by Vastin

Hey folks! Thanks for all the responses. I'm going through and thinking about which bits I need to tackle before it goes live.

- Probably need to bring the DPS down from the current build a bit. I want it high, but I think it's a little over the top right now, especially as other bug fixes enter the picture.

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You're just wrong. I'm sorry.

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Originally Posted by Aeviternus

Which is archaic and hasn't been updated for years and years. How about you go read some dev diaries from Helm's Deep? Clearly states that blue captains were meant to be viable healers. Also that red guardians were meant to be viable for DPS.

If some ancient text at the character creation is what you base this on, that proves my point.



I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say. This isn't a proper paragraph.

Regardless, there is no downside to any trait tree being viable. Red line guardians should be viable for DPS, it would just make the game more fun for those who want to play a DPS guardian. There are no negative consequences. And, lastly... once again:



You're just wrong. I'm sorry.

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Maybe it would be more fun for those who want to play a dps guardian, but they don´t understand the role of a guard. It´s tanking.
Either you want to play a guard or you want to play dps. In the second case you choose hunter, rk, wraden, champ.
And stop qouting vastin, ok he want it high but it seems he has no idea what he has done to the game with this creation of opness.

Guys enough with personal "arguments" and staff,everyone has a different opinion of what a class can or cannot do and witch is the main role of each if they even have one, this is not the right thread to talk about this.
After burglars update things getting real serious.Casual raiding champions that is the 90% of this game dont stand a change to get a spot in raids against the new burglar now and hunters loose a dps spot also no matter how good they are.
So give your feedback and pray for developers to read make the maths and do something about it.
In my opinion i like the new burglar boost but they made them way to op.Some kind of boost was something that was needed so they can find a spot at 3 and 6 men instances and even to help more the whole groups dps in raid but if they boost them so much they should boost the same all the other dps classes and not only.Captains should do much more dps than they do now for example same with LMs,Beornings etc.
A burglar to make more damage than hunter or champion is real stupid its like you said that Bilbo could do more damage than Legolas or Gimli.So ether boost the rest of the dps classes or nerf the burglars to be some kinda close but defiantly do less damage than other dps classes.

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Originally Posted by Arandour

Guys enough with personal "arguments" and staff,everyone has a different opinion of what a class can or cannot do and witch is the main role of each if they even have one, this is not the right thread to talk about this.
After burglars update things getting real serious.Casual raiding champions that is the 90% of this game dont stand a change to get a spot in raids against the new burglar now and hunters loose a dps spot also no matter how good they are.
So give your feedback and pray for developers to read make the maths and do something about it.
In my opinion i like the new burglar boost but they made them way to op.Some kind of boost was something that was needed so they can find a spot at 3 and 6 men instances and even to help more the whole groups dps in raid but if they boost them so much they should boost the same all the other dps classes and not only.Captains should do much more dps than they do now for example same with LMs,Beornings etc.
A burglar to make more damage than hunter or champion is real stupid its like you said that Bilbo could do more damage than Legolas or Gimli.So ether boost the rest of the dps classes or nerf the burglars to be some kinda close but defiantly do less damage than other dps classes.

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I agree we should stop talking about burgs, it´s a champions thread. But one last point, burgs were allways able to run 3 or 6 men, but it wasn´t the easy way so people avoid it. Yellow burgs can work as heal for 3 men at least with a cappy it works really fine, and in sixmen you allways have on spot over for burgs. So the skill of burgs were never the problem only the attitude of the players. Not to mention raids in which allways ius one spot for a burg unlike champs cause they suck in their role as dpser and they cannot do anything else.
In general ssg should stop with 3-men and create 4-men, so every class can do it: tank, heal, dps +x.
as bigger the group is the initance is designed for as higher is the flexibility in the groupbuild.

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Originally Posted by Arandour

Guys enough with personal "arguments" and staff,everyone has a different opinion of what a class can or cannot do and witch is the main role of each if they even have one, this is not the right thread to talk about this.
After burglars update things getting real serious.Casual raiding champions that is the 90% of this game dont stand a change to get a spot in raids against the new burglar now and hunters loose a dps spot also no matter how good they are.
So give your feedback and pray for developers to read make the maths and do something about it.
In my opinion i like the new burglar boost but they made them way to op.Some kind of boost was something that was needed so they can find a spot at 3 and 6 men instances and even to help more the whole groups dps in raid but if they boost them so much they should boost the same all the other dps classes and not only.Captains should do much more dps than they do now for example same with LMs,Beornings etc.
A burglar to make more damage than hunter or champion is real stupid its like you said that Bilbo could do more damage than Legolas or Gimli.So ether boost the rest of the dps classes or nerf the burglars to be some kinda close but defiantly do less damage than other dps classes.

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I agree that this is not the place to discuss about the new Burglar, but it's true that the new Burglar affects Champions. I mean, it places Champions in an even worse situation, hard as that is to believe.
If devs want to make Burglar a top dps character that is fine with me, as it should be with all players, I guess. The game can be balanced around it.

But making Champions a bad class that is not wanted in any content is never a balanced situation. Champions need more dps and it is needed now. Not just to compete with Burglars, but simply to justify our position as a dps class. Up to now Hunters and RKs were always prefered to Champions. Now it's Hunters, RKs and Burglars. Are there new revamps of classes coming who will also get more dps than Champions? This is a shameful situation. Devs, we need you to boost Champions's dps. Champions are a liability to groups, everybody knows it and we are simply not welcome beyond T1. Champion is a dying class in group content. Fix it, please.

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Originally Posted by Mukor

Maybe it would be more fun for those who want to play a dps guardian, but they don´t understand the role of a guard. It´s tanking.

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Lmao. This reasoning is so circular, it should be obvious even to yourself how terrible of an argument this is.

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Either you want to play a guard or you want to play dps. In the second case you choose hunter, rk, wraden, champ.

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Actually, you choose any class that has a DPS spec, if you want to DPS. There is no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to do this.

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And stop qouting vastin, ok he want it high but it seems he has no idea what he has done to the game with this creation of opness.

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Uhm... The developer of the game has no idea? No, sir, you are the one without a clue. When Vastin revamped red guardians, they were viable DPS. Their DPS rivaled that of hunters. When he revamped red burglars, he made them rival and exceed hunter DPS, too. The trend is clear. Vastin's goal is to make these DPS specs viable. You can argue against it with as much circular reasoning as you want, it doesn't change the facts.

I wish you would just come to terms with it, admit your mistake, and abandon this archaic notion of "class roles" that hasn't existed since Helm's Deep.