A big Thank You to Vastin

thank you Vastin for your work and for showing up on the forums.

it took me some time to like my blue hunter again but i must say now i like it. i needed to retrait a few times and made some try and error runs but that was in some way fun too. i understand the first negative feelings against changes but i hope that some players like me will use the situation to try different things with their old blue hunters and find a way to have fun with it again.

btw. i hope the overall tone of the forums will get more friendly again. and please stop telling players to leave the game. i dont want to play on empty servers.

Vastin one suggestion from me , could you fix the bug of Blindside soon ? :)

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Originally Posted by paintpixie

For any of the people who are unhappy with this change, have you played around with your hunter at all in-game?

I hate sudden changes as much as the next guy. And it really had me hung up for awhile too, but I kept working with it, and I eventually (after spending way too much gold triaiting and retraiting) got it to where it's almost exactly where I was before, damage wise. I think I sacrificed a little smidge on power regen, but I'm still not having difficulty with that either, really.

If any of you would like help, I can help you. Feel free to ask. If you want to give it another shot before quitting, it's definitely worth the try in my opinion.

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How? PS and Barrage are 1/4-1/3 of what they used to be. How do you get the same dps? Is the speed the same? How do you feel fighting with 3 mob simultaneously? I am 43 lvl btw

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Originally Posted by NeoBasilisk

Yes, you are correct. The feedback "Make it like it was before" is not going to be taken seriously.

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Ok, make dps 3/4 of it was before update and focus generation 2 in 5 second - this is called reasonable nerf. And after that write letters to all players about these changes in order to return a few of them back. Will this be taken seriously?

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Originally Posted by NeoBasilisk

Yes, you are correct. The feedback "Make it like it was before" is not going to be taken seriously.

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And thank goodness for that, but in true and proper fairness, that kind of suggestion was really a rare thing in the thread and should never have been thrown in there and made out to be the "in fashion" suggestion, because it REALLY - wasn't. If that's all that was taken from the thread, then, I'm not sure what to think, other than, feedback here, has a different meaning to the dictionary.

It reminds me of the scene in "The Proposal" when Sandra Bullock reels out a long list of really important personal details about herself and Ryan Reynolds picked up - one line.

My final post on this thread. I honestly do think Vastin did a great job of what he set out to do. I think everyone involved worked really hard to make it right, yes it is not good, or perfect for everyone. Some want a harder nerf, others less, others want it to be what it was before that horrible barrage bug, but the team working on it did a good job at what they proposed. More communication with players outside the testing would have been better, maybe a letter to all players with a list of changes they are working on in the next update and notification that everyone can go to the beta test server might have avoided all of this.

Who knows I still think the devs have been very good at what they do, and the game is the best out there even if it is older. I think they work hard and do what they believe is best for the game and the community. The failure I see is not on their end, they did what they said they would the failure is in the casual players not having any idea what was going to happen. That being due to them not knowing all the ins and outs, the beta platform, the availability to send messages to the devs about proposed changes. This in the end may hurt the game badly, I hope it does not, the changes were drastic at low levels, but with help the players can adjust. Those that have not already given up that is.

This is not the devs fault they did all they said they would, I would put the blame higher for the lack of communication of the availability of the test server, and a notification in detail about the impacts on all levels not just max levels.

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Originally Posted by VadulTharys

My final post on this thread. I honestly do think Vastin did a great job of what he set out to do. I think everyone involved worked really hard to make it right, yes it is not good, or perfect for everyone. Some want a harder nerf, others less, others want it to be what it was before that horrible barrage bug, but the team working on it did a good job at what they proposed. More communication with players outside the testing would have been better, maybe a letter to all players with a list of changes they are working on in the next update and notification that everyone can go to the beta test server might have avoided all of this.

Who knows I still think the devs have been very good at what they do, and the game is the best out there even if it is older. I think they work hard and do what they believe is best for the game and the community. The failure I see is not on their end, they did what they said they would the failure is in the casual players not having any idea what was going to happen. That being due to them not knowing all the ins and outs, the beta platform, the availability to send messages to the devs about proposed changes. This in the end may hurt the game badly, I hope it does not, the changes were drastic at low levels, but with help the players can adjust. Those that have not already given up that is.

This is not the devs fault they did all they said they would, I would put the blame higher for the lack of communication of the availability of the test server, and a notification in detail about the impacts on all levels not just max levels.

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There was certainly a change in the way the Beta platform was put out this time around, it even took me by surprise and I've been Beta testing since before open Beta came along. I'll be ready for it next time around and hopefully won't miss the allocated, short notice time slots. I think the devs also need to consider that the ultimate tests come when the update goes live. Sure, they get a lot of really great feedback from some really good players on Beta, and that's always important. Feedback increases once the patch notes hit also, but it's when it goes live that the broader player base will bring their feedback. It comes in a myriad of different ways. Some do nothing and just go with the flow, some add it to the forum, some email, some use messages, some leave quietly, or loudly, some congratulate or celebrate. It is what it is and the end net result will never be seen until much later. It may make things better, or it may make things worse.

The important thing is not to fret over it. If the game ever gets to the point where it's threatened, I'm pretty sure the devs will be holding some Ace cards, to get it out of trouble.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

How do you feel fighting with 3 mob simultaneously? I am 43 lvl btw

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I feel pretty comfortable, actually.

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Originally Posted by VadulTharys

the changes were drastic at low levels

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I've noticed you've never once replied to any of the videos I post since they don't fit your narrative, so I don't expect you to change now.

Unless of course you mean hunters were drastically improved at low levels, how do you explain this?

Level 8 hunter vs 3 level 14 red bears:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bRPm4-Ty7Y

(I played it pretty badly too. Missed a lot of barbed arrows and failed to re-attempt. Didn't notice the trapped bear was almost dead until I re-targeted it at the end)

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Originally Posted by Bohemond71

Unless of course you mean hunters were drastically improved at low levels, how do you explain this?

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He's correct in suggesting that Hunters were drastically nerfed at low levels. They adjusted the scaling so that tooltip damage values ceased to exceed mob morale pools. There was a post about it on beta along with some screenshots I took of mobs similar to the players level:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

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Originally Posted by Ghost_Archer

So, here's my very brief and very telling take on the changes that are coming ... yes, I say coming, because SSG is not going to take the advice of anyone like me because I don't do end-game. My experiment was simple, no training dummies, no calculations, just a straight up comparison between two characters. Character 1 is live, Character 2 is BR. Both are elves, both are hunters, both are using the Blue Line.

Character 1: Basic Barrage: 613 - 641

Character 2: Basic Barrage: 179 - 279

Character 1: Penetrating Shot: 613 - 641

Character 2: Penetrating Shot: 175 - 272

Character 1: Bow has 30 - 54 damage range with 19.1 DPS; -5% induction

Character 2: Bow has 38 - 69 damage range with 53.8 DPS (that's what is says); -2.5% induction, +92 crit rating

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Level 20 you say? Let me go find some level 20ish mobs.

https://i.imgur.com/PjFvAQk.png

https://i.imgur.com/r09ILCA.png

https://i.imgur.com/65HpzMI.png

Yeah...I think there might be a problem with that Character 1: Basic Barrage value...

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So yes. Low level Hunters did get nerfed. There just isn't really any problem associated with that.

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Originally Posted by Bohemond71

I feel pretty comfortable, actually.



I've noticed you've never once replied to any of the videos I post since they don't fit your narrative, so I don't expect you to change now.

Unless of course you mean hunters were drastically improved at low levels, how do you explain this?

Level 8 hunter vs 3 level 14 red bears:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bRPm4-Ty7Y

(I played it pretty badly too. Missed a lot of barbed arrows and failed to re-attempt. Didn't notice the trapped bear was almost dead until I re-targeted it at the end)

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I watched it. You have a lot of space and you've spent a lot of time - I suppose my LM would have done it faster (at the level where this class gets aoe abilities). There is Gobln Town - less space, more mobs, try it there.

Actually I don't mind using several skills to kill mobs - the only character I've been playing apart blue hunter is LM. But I do mind the time consumption for blue hunter after update. I switched to blue hunter exactly because of time consumption and speed. They could have added several skills to blue hunter without inductions and decreased dps of PS and Barrage - so it would have become more then 3skills rotation, but the time consumption and speed would have retained mostly at the same level. But they have done something different and now the speed of blue hunter is less then lm's one. And time spent 4 times greater it used to be. Imho not fun to play blue hunter now.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

I watched it. You have a lot of space and you've spent a lot of time - I suppose my LM would have done it faster (at the level where this class gets aoe abilities). There is Gobln Town - less space, more mobs, try it there.

Actually I don't mind using several skills to kill mobs - the only character I've been playing apart blue hunter is LM. But I do mind the time consumption for blue hunter after update. I switched to blue hunter exactly because of time consumption and speed. They could have added several skills to blue hunter without inductions and decreased dps of PS and Barrage - so it would have become more then 3skills rotation, but the time consumption and speed would have retained mostly at the same level. But they have done something different and now the speed of blue hunter is less then lm's one. And time spent 4 times greater it used to be. Imho not fun to play blue hunter now.

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I think this game has officially spoiled people. Especially if you think taking 45 seconds to kill 3 mobs that are 6 levels higher than the player is a "lot of time".

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

He's correct in suggesting that Hunters were drastically nerfed at low levels.

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Well, "drastic" can have different meanings in different contexts - from the pattern of his "hunters have been ruined" posts, I took his use of the word to mean they had been weakened too far - which is so very clearly not the case. Compared to what I am used to, they are obviously far too powerful at lower levels (as I'm sure every class is)

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Originally Posted by Osweld

I watched it. You have a lot of space and you've spent a lot of time - I suppose my LM would have done it faster (at the level where this class gets aoe abilities). There is Gobln Town - less space, more mobs, try it there.

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Your counter generally seems to be "well, play with less skill and see how do you then!"

You also seem to be oblivious to the significance of level difference. A level 8 slowly killing 14s shouldn't really be possible no matter how much he can move.

(Yes, level difference hasn't mattered as much as it did in SoA for a long time (since SoA actually: it was changed with MoM) - but it still factors in.)

I even killed a purple, which used to be impossible:

Level 9 vs 19. Did I take too long for this too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc-KW98GNBU

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Originally Posted by Skyfoot

I think this game has officially spoiled people. Especially if you think taking 45 seconds to kill 3 mobs that are 6 levels higher than the player is a "lot of time".

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A lot of time compared to how it used to be. The newcomers would never mind cause they don't know how it used to be but those who do and who enjoyed it are disappointed imho.
And as for me they should buff all classes instead nerfing them.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

A lot of time compared to how it used to be. The newcomers would never mind cause they don't know how it used to be but those who do and who enjoyed it are disappointed imho.
And as for me they should buff all classes instead nerfing them.

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Then the choice is clear I think. Accept the changes or don't and move on. Look, I'm not trying to be rude here but take a step back for a second...what is the meta of the Hunter? It's a ranged dps class. It is not and should never be a tank. The mere fact that you can take on 3 mobs 6 levels higher than you is part of the problem to begin with. All things being equal you couldn't do that in WoW or FFXIV and there is a good reason for it.

The classes in LotRo have become so homogenized over the years any real, unique identity has been swept away.

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Originally Posted by Skyfoot

Then the choice is clear I think. Accept the changes or don't and move on. Look, I'm not trying to be rude here but take a step back for a second...what is the meta of the Hunter? It's a ranged dps class. It is not and should never be a tank. The mere fact that you can take on 3 mobs 6 levels higher than you is part of the problem to begin with. All things being equal you couldn't do that in WoW or FFXIV and there is a good reason for it.

The classes in LotRo have become so homogenized over the years any real, unique identity has been swept away.

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I know nothing about WOW and FFXIV, but I know a bit about TESO. They completely removed levels and as for me that was a great idea.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

How? PS and Barrage are 1/4-1/3 of what they used to be. How do you get the same dps? Is the speed the same? How do you feel fighting with 3 mob simultaneously? I am 43 lvl btw

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In full disclosure, I'm level 75. So a bit higher than you. I have about 50 points to put in the traits trees right now. But I've found that, in general, relying more on swift bow and quick shot has helped me. Swift bow does more damage than my focus reliant skills, and quick shot builds focus up really quickly. If I'm fighting multiple mobs, or a difficult mob, I've found that barbed arrow and kiting has really helped too. I rarely even get hit at all that way. I think there's a passive early on in red line which increases damage for quick shot and lowers cool down for swift bow. I have that.

I have a hunter that's about level 25ish. I will try her out this weekend to see if I can get her to a good place too. I think she only has 8 trait points, or thereabout. But my thought right now is that she might be faster traiting red until she's a higher level and can dip into the red line while being blue. So that might be something you have to do, too, depending on how you want to play. If you want more damage, it might be best to do that for lower levels.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

A lot of time compared to how it used to be. The newcomers would never mind cause they don't know how it used to be but those who do and who enjoyed it are disappointed imho.
And as for me they should buff all classes instead nerfing them.

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It does take more time now since the last update, but it doesn't take as long as pre-U19. I understand the disappointment, I felt that same disappointment when they "fixed" hunters and made blueline what it was, because I always played in redline. So yeah, I feel your pain. I kinda got used to playing in blue since, but I never did embrace the barrage spam, because it was really boring. I'm a bit rusty in red, but that will come back to me I'm sure.

That all said, some people that are opposing you are right in one thing that some of them have said. This is a first step. There will be more balancing of other classes coming and also a new update with a new level cap. There is all sorts of balancing in the pipeline when you consider all classes, content and rewards that are still pending. I've seen updates arrive that haven't affected lower levels before, and I've seen updates that do. This one has, and the next one may too, and it may swing it back in your favour a little.

I'd like the think that all feedback is being taken into consideration (minus the extremes on both ends, because both are evident on the forum, though thankfully, both are pretty rare), though after reading one thread this morning, I'm not sure that will happen because it seems to have been seen as one sided, when it absolutely hasn't been. But there is always hope, so hang on in there. Time, and net results over time, will probably be the largest influence at the end of the day.

I've waited a long time for redline to be worth playing again, and now it is. I think something may be bugged, but I need to do a bit of work on a rebuild before I can approach anyone on it, because it could just be that which is causing it. The point is though - swings and roundabouts.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

And as for me they should buff all classes instead nerfing them.

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That's not very logical:

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Say you have 9 ST DPS classes who all pull roughly the same DPS, you also have a tenth ST DPS class that pulls twice as much DPS as the others. Logically it is always better to address an outlier than it is to put everyone else at the outliers level, in this case you would nerf the outlier class so that you end up with 10 classes pulling roughly the same DPS but only had to tweak one of them.

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

That's not very logical:

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Logically it is not better to nerf an outstander, logically it takes less time and less efforts than to buff all. The one blue class was fun to play, now there are ten not fun to play as for me.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

Logically it is not better to nerf an outstander, logically it takes less time and less efforts than to buff all. The one blue class was fun to play, now there are ten not fun to play as for me.

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Is your ideal of fun based on ease of play (1-2 shots per mob) or did you enjoy it for the highly simplistic rotation?

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Is your ideal of fun based on ease of play (1-2 shots per mob) or did you enjoy it for the highly simplistic rotation?

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I wrote earlier I am cool with high number of skills in rotation. I believe those skills should be without induction and huge cooldown. The only thing that matters to me is time. I am ready to press far more then 2 keys if they have no induction and huge cooldown. In current state of my blue hunter I have 3 induction range skills with cooldowns and 3 range focus skills that consumes more focus I can generate. And actually cooldown of Barrage doesn't bother me at all cause I never can achieve Tier 3 Barrage due lack of focus.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

I wrote earlier I am cool with high number of skills in rotation. I believe those skills should be without induction and huge cooldown. The only thing that matters to me is time. I am ready to press far more then 2 keys if they have no induction and huge cooldown.

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And what kind of timeframe to kill a mob do you consider to be something the developers should be aiming for?

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

And what kind of timeframe to kill a mob do you consider to be something the developers should be aiming for?

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The blue hunter's speed before update was cool for me. The max level of nerfing I could accept is decreasing a speed maximum by two times. It has decreased by 4-6 times.

And LM should deal with mobs two times faster. I can say nothing about the others - I am not familiar with them.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

The blue hunter's speed before update was cool for me. The max level of nerfing I could accept is decreasing a speed maximum by two times. It has decreased by 4-6 times.

And LM should deal with mobs two times faster. I can say nothing about the others - I am not familiar with them.

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Could you humour me and give me a rough ballpark in terms of seconds/minutes/hours/years?

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Could you humour me and give me a rough ballpark in terms of seconds/minutes/hours/years?

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I don't know what "could you humour me" means but I think 4-5-6 sec on a mob is normal if you have skills with maximum 1.5 sec induction. The quests in lotro are like "go and kill me 15 wargs", I don't think it is reasonable to make time on a mob higher.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

I don't know what "could you humour me" means but I think 4-5-6 sec on a mob is normal if you have skills with maximum 1.5 sec induction. The quests in lotro are like "go and kill me 15 wargs", I don't think it is reasonable to make time on a mob higher.

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"Could you humour me" is generally a line people use when they want someone to do something for them without necessarily knowing the purpose of the task. In this case I just wanted to know what you considered to be a reasonable timeframe in terms of mob kill times so I could see if my following question would be appropriate.


If 4-6 seconds per mob is the ideal kill time per mob, how can the developers create any kind of challenge based on that timeframe? On a ranged class like Hunter 4-6 seconds could be longer than it takes the mob to run over to you so how can the developers adjust the mobs in order to ensure that they stand a chance of killing you?