New Vault

But ... but ... isn't that what I typed? I could have sworn I typed sort. I'm sure I typed sort. My brain told my fingers sort.

My fingers rebelled.

I've found as my fingers have aged, they tend to not always interpret what my mind says correctly. You'd be amazed at some of the words that come out of my fingers that have nothing in common whatsoever with what my brain instructed.

I worry it's a sign of the beginning stages of dementia

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Originally Posted by ransroth

It's autosort, not autosearch :).

I'd love to get some form of manual sort implemented which will allow you to do this. It's just that right now there are higher priority things that we need to work on.

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Originally Posted by ransroth

That is actually something we got to do for the next update. Mostly I'm very happy with the way it turned out - made room for a bit of the name and an icon.

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I don't suppose you could post a screenshot of the current version of the vault showing the new name toggle buttons, named tabs, etc? I think I know what you're saying, but as they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

After some questing last evening, I headed to my now somewhat organized vault and started tossing in my haul. IXP runes, bound barter items, and other things that stack just popped into the existing stacks with the view changing as appropriate. I really like that feature. I know I've talked about this before, but it bears repeating. The only thing that was a pain, and was a pain with the old vault, is the lack of a keyboard/mouse click shortcut to toss items in the vault without dragging.

The two folks I was questing with aren't thrilled with the new vault at all, but I've come to the conclusion it's a net positive. Granted, that overall positive assessment is based on the as yet released improvements. ;) I'll bring them on board eventually.

I was thinking about how to do manual sort versus automatic sort if some compromises must be made. I know having the option to check/uncheck manual/auto sort for every chest may be cumbersome and having a single toggle that affects everything isn't desired either. Something to consider is to just make the main chest manual sort or preferably with a toggle between manual/auto (for those who want everything auto sorted). Since the vault window will have the capability to be stretched both vertically and horizontally, those that want a visual, all-at-once, manually organized vault can easily make it happen just using the main chest in manual. Then leave the numbered chests in auto sort. Personally, I'd use the main chest in manual sort (armour sets, cosmetic outfits, etc.) and use the numbered chests in auto (IXP runes, barter items, crafting mats, etc.)

Thanks again for sticking with this thread. I sincerely appreciate it. :)

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Originally Posted by MerrickapMilandra

I think, knowing this, that a great many people would very much like it if the Lua scripting API were granted access to the vault interface in the way it currently is for the inventory interface or even a reasonable facsimile thereof.

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That's something we'd like to do. Can't make any promises though.

And you get bonus points for spelling Lua correctly :).

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Originally Posted by Thoroval

I don't suppose you could post a screenshot of the current version of the vault showing the new name toggle buttons, named tabs, etc? I think I know what you're saying, but as they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

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I've thought about it - I'll bring it up with our OCR group and see what they think about whether I should do that. Usually we do that kind of detailed description of new features in the context of dev diaries.

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Originally Posted by Thoroval

The only thing that was a pain, and was a pain with the old vault, is the lack of a keyboard/mouse click shortcut to toss items in the vault without dragging.

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I'm not sure exactly how this would work. Doubleclicking or right-clicking on an item in your inventory uses it, and if we changed that behavior, the screams of players would reach the skies. Alt-click to select and then some user shortcut like Ctrl-V for vault strikes me as incredibly obscure and not a clear win over just dragging the item in to begin with. And something like Alt-double-click on an item to add it to the vault breaks down if you have the vault and the shared storage both open.

I think the real solution to this is if there were a way to manipulate the vault using Lua, there could be a plugin that would add a right-click menu to items in your Lua inventory that would send them to the vault, or whatever other interface the plugin writer would create.

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Originally Posted by Thoroval

I was thinking about how to do manual sort versus automatic sort if some compromises must be made. I know having the option to check/uncheck manual/auto sort for every chest may be cumbersome and having a single toggle that affects everything isn't desired either. Something to consider is to just make the main chest manual sort or preferably with a toggle between manual/auto (for those who want everything auto sorted). Since the vault window will have the capability to be stretched both vertically and horizontally, those that want a visual, all-at-once, manually organized vault can easily make it happen just using the main chest in manual. Then leave the numbered chests in auto sort. Personally, I'd use the main chest in manual sort (armour sets, cosmetic outfits, etc.) and use the numbered chests in auto (IXP runes, barter items, crafting mats, etc.)

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Very interesting idea.

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Originally Posted by ransroth

I've thought about it - I'll bring it up with our OCR group and see what they think about whether I should do that. Usually we do that kind of detailed description of new features in the context of dev diaries.

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Well, since you've already told us all the upcoming (disclaimer: but may not make it depending on bugs) features, I figured all a picture does is put previously released info into context visually. Never hurts to ask though. :)

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Originally Posted by ransroth

I'm not sure exactly how this would work. Doubleclicking or right-clicking on an item in your inventory uses it, and if we changed that behavior, the screams of players would reach the skies. Alt-click to select and then some user shortcut like Ctrl-V for vault strikes me as incredibly obscure and not a clear win over just dragging the item in to begin with.

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For what it's worth, when I played WoW a right-click would also "use" an item in my inventory unless my bank was open in which case it would send the item to the bank instead. I don't believe it was that way at release (could be wrong) and most players knew about it and didn't complain that I know of. I proposed a modifier key-mouse-click combo just so existing functionality wouldn't be affected. I got the idea from the vendors actually (more on that below). I would be fine with a simple Shift-right-click myself.

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Originally Posted by ransroth

And something like Alt-double-click on an item to add it to the vault breaks down if you have the vault and the shared storage both open.

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I understand what you're saying there. I think the same was true in WoW when you had your personal bank and the guild bank open at the same time. I think I had to close my personal bank to right-click items into the guild bank? Been awhile and things may have changed.

I think there could be 2 solutions for LOTRO and each solution could also incorporate the trade window as well.

First, have 3 mod key-click combos, one for each situation. I do understand that'd be slightly complicated, but let me expand on the idea anyway since I believe there's precedent at vendors.

When we're at a vendor, in addition to 1) double-clicking an item to purchase and 2) selecting the item then clicking the Buy button, we have 3 different modifier keys: Shift, Alt, and Tab. This results in 8 different key-click combinations. Despite how complicated it is (and the fact that I need to sometimes reread the explanatory text at the bottom of the vendor window), I think those combos have been a huge success.

So how about something like this:

• Alt-right-click sends an item in inventory to the vault (Alt rhymes with vault)
• Shift-right-click sends item to shared storage (Shift and Shared both start with "sh")
• Tab-right-click sends item to the trade window (Tab and Trade both start with "t")

Just add the appropriate explanatory text in the appropriate windows. I don't believe that's anymore complicated than what players already have (and love using) at the vendor window.

A second option would be to default to the vault regardless of shared storage since everyone has a vault, but not everyone has shared storage. To get the key-click combo to work with shared storage, the player would need to close their vault first (just like I had to in WoW). Extend this functionality to the trade window as well. I'd suggest putting its priority before shared storage, again because not everyone has shared storage.

So (again, just picking one single of many possible combos) Alt-right-click sends item to:

• vault if open (ignore anything else open)
• trade window if open and vault not open (ignore shared storage if open)
• shared storage if it's the only window open

I think folks would get used to either option rather quickly given the advantages involved.

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Originally Posted by ransroth

I think the real solution to this is if there were a way to manipulate the vault using Lua, there could be a plugin that would add a right-click menu to items in your Lua inventory that would send them to the vault, or whatever other interface the plugin writer would create.

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Lua would definitely be a boon in inventory management as long as there was someone out there willing to write then maintain a mod for it. I found during my time in WoW that it was the maintaining of mods that caused many of the problems and frustrations for players.

howes about right clicking an item with vault/shared storage open would give a menu with 3 choices....

--send to vault

--send to shared storage

--use

can that be done Rans?

:D

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Originally Posted by ransroth

I think the real solution to this is if there were a way to manipulate the vault using Lua, there could be a plugin that would add a right-click menu to items in your Lua inventory that would send them to the vault, or whatever other interface the plugin writer would create.

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I respectfully disagree with that line of thought. While the plugins and Lua are indeed nice to have, I don't believe that Turbine should be taking the direction that they can just rely on end users to fix their UI problems. If it is a problem, there are plenty of customers who will never have the technical know-how or desire to mess with unsupported UI elements.

My 2c is to make sure Turbine keeps diligently fixing their UX problems, and allow the plugin community to embrace and extend rather than provide something that really should be there in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Darej

howes about right clicking an item with vault/shared storage open would give a menu with 3 choices....

--send to vault

--send to shared storage

--use

can that be done Rans?

:D

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Changing the action of right-click based on which windows are open is confusing. It would likely lead to people accidentally using items in their inventory (standard right-click behavior) when they were expecting a right-click menu.

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Originally Posted by Digero

Changing the action of right-click based on which windows are open is confusing. It would likely lead to people accidentally using items in their inventory (standard right-click behavior) when they were expecting a right-click menu.

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then remove the use option

or make them unusable with vault windows open.

this function is already in game:

when you have a vendor window open you are unable to destroy any item in your bag.

:D

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Originally Posted by henry316

I respectfully disagree with that line of thought. While the plugins and Lua are indeed nice to have, I don't believe that Turbine should be taking the direction that they can just rely on end users to fix their UI problems. If it is a problem, there are plenty of customers who will never have the technical know-how or desire to mess with unsupported UI elements.

My 2c is to make sure Turbine keeps diligently fixing their UX problems, and allow the plugin community to embrace and extend rather than provide something that really should be there in the first place.

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Why not both? Improve the standard vault UI, and let people write their own custom vault plugins. Even with unlimited time and resources, Ransroth could never please everyone with the vault UI. Lua support would give those people who still don't like the vault UI another option.

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Originally Posted by Darej

then remove the use option

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There'd be hell to pay if they did that :)

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Originally Posted by Darej

or make them unusable with vault windows open.

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That would already happen if they add a right-click menu. I'm saying the unintended use would happen when the vault window is closed.

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Originally Posted by Digero

There'd be hell to pay if they did that :)

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why? who uses consumables (other then dyes) while in the vault?

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That would already happen if they add a right-click menu. I'm saying the unintended use would happen when the vault window is closed.

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well..folks screw up and make silly mistakes all the time regardless of what the devs do...
point of fact the recent rant thread about mail decay

:D

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Originally Posted by Darej

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Originally Posted by Digero

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Originally Posted by Darej

then remove the use option

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There'd be hell to pay if they did that :)

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why? who uses consumables (other then dyes) while in the vault?

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I'm not talking about when the vault is open. Changing the behavior of right-click on inventory items depending on whether or not the vault is open is bad UI design, as it leads to confusion about whether right-click will open a menu or use an item. If they converted right-click to a menu at all times to maintain consistency and avoid said confusion, people would be upset... I right-click to use items in my inventory all the time.

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Originally Posted by Darej

well..folks screw up and make silly mistakes all the time regardless of what the devs do...
point of fact the recent rant thread about mail decay

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That's not an excuse to create a UI that makes it easier for the user to make mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Digero

I'm not talking about when the vault is open. Changing the behavior of right-click on inventory items depending on whether or not the vault is open is bad UI design, as it leads to confusion about whether right-click will open a menu or use an item. If they converted right-click to a menu at all times to maintain consistency and avoid said confusion, people would be upset... I right-click to use items in my inventory all the time.


That's not an excuse to create a UI that makes it easier for the user to make mistakes.

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sorry..i just dont see i that way.

to me its simple cut and dry...if vault open...right clik menu...no vault..no menu

thats what dev diaries are for..to explain new features.

heck the new wardrobe is far more confusing then what i am suggesting and folks get it just fine

:D

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Originally Posted by Digero

Changing the behavior of right-click on inventory items depending on whether or not the vault is open is bad UI design

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I respectfully submit that 10+ million WoW players may disagree with that. Right-click does change behavior in WoW depending on whether your personal bank is open or not. "Equipping Items - Equip items by right-clicking them from your inventory. If your bank window is open, right-clicking an item will instead place it your bank." (Blizzard is many things, but poor designers or stupid they are not.) Everyone I knew in WoW was fine with it. I could dump stuff in my bank in WoW at lightning speeds compared to LOTRO.

Of course, you were addressing Darej's suggestion and not mine. I'm trying to avoid right-click menus myself. After going through all my characters and having to right-click/"Move to Chest..." many hundreds of times, I'm sick of right-click menus. (It's rather small on my screen too which didn't help since sometimes I'd hit the one above or below what I wanted.) My proposal wouldn't use a right-click by itself since I don't want to change current functionality. I want to add a modifier key to a right-click to create additional functionality that doesn't exist today. It's something that could be extended for use with Shared Storage, Trade, Housing Containers, and eventually multiple attachment mail (if Turbine ever gets around to adding that functionality).

But I'll play devil's advocate and look at what would happen if the player makes a mistake. They have their vault window open and they right click some food to eat it or a potion to drink it or some armour to equip it. The worst that can happen is they just put that food or potion or armour in their vault. They haven't destroyed anything or used anything erroneously. They go "oops" and pull it back out of the vault.

(Btw, if something like Alt-right-click was implemented to go from "inventory to vault", I'd prefer changing the "vault to inventory" to the same, rather than the double-left-click that exists now. However, I'm fine with not changing it since my goal is to not change existing functionality.)

Maybe Ransroth is right and folks wouldn't catch on to something that in my opinion isn't any more complicated than using the mod keys at the vendor. I may have teach myself Lua at some point if Turbine releases the appropriate capability and add it myself. However, I know full well that I won't always be available for mod upkeep, so releasing it publicly probably wouldn't be in my best interest. (Mod makers who don't maintain their mods or who don't release updated mods the day patches come out can sometimes get filleted by users. It's wrong, but there it is.)

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Originally Posted by Digero

I'm not talking about when the vault is open. Changing the behavior of right-click on inventory items depending on whether or not the vault is open is bad UI design, as it leads to confusion about whether right-click will open a menu or use an item. If they converted right-click to a menu at all times to maintain consistency and avoid said confusion, people would be upset... I right-click to use items in my inventory all the time.

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Actually right clicking to execute (i.e. use) anything is counter intuitive - no matter which OS or application you're using. Standard right-click behavior for at least the last 10-20 years is to open up a context menu - no matter what you're doing.

So...if anything should be changed, it's the very thing you do all the time; because using something by right clicking is counter-intuitive. Instead, I suggest they put right-click context menus for bags/quickslots, including an option for locking/unlocking items - as that would be a vast improvement in intuitiveness.

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Originally Posted by Darej

to me its simple cut and dry...if vault open...right clik menu...no vault..no menu
thats what dev diaries are for..to explain new features.

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If you were in Beta, you might recall that they were prepared to change the behaviour of the Champion's Let Fly simple ranged attack due to player feedback of being confused why the 'not in range' message was popping-up. In other words, don't over-estimate the intelligence of some people. :eek:

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Originally Posted by auximenes77

If you were in Beta, you might recall that they were prepared to change the behaviour of the Champion's Let Fly simple ranged attack due to player feedback of being confused why the 'not in range' message was popping-up. In other words, don't over-estimate the intelligence of some people. :eek:

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yes i was in the beta...and you are using a bunch of face-rolling champs as an example of player intelligence?...lol

:D

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Originally Posted by Darej

to me its simple cut and dry...if vault open...right clik menu...no vault..no menu

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It isn't so easy to actually have your vault open when you think it is. Can't tell you how many times since the new vault was introduced I've had the shared vault open when I wanted my personal vault, or vice versa. I've ended up putting things in the wrong vault, or not been able to find things due to not realizing which vault I was working in. Based on that, I'd think it quite confusing to tie use/menu to the state of the vault. Then you have the additional confusion of housing chests. They are storage, but behave differently.

By the by, I have often used dyes when my vault was open, that's where I store the pots!

Been wanting to ask this for a long time, but keep forgetting ...

Is there a way to add a button to each vault that allows you to open the other ones (personal vault, shared vault, wardrobe)? It's just painful trying to get to the vault NPC to open another window when one of the vaults is already open. Not to mention the fact that with all the horses now, the vault NPCs get buried and you can hardly find them to click on them.

We used to be able to open shared vault from the personal vault, I used that button all the time. Would really love to have that capability again, extended to all the vault windows.

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Originally Posted by Jenara

Is there a way to add a button to each vault that allows you to open the other ones (personal vault, shared vault, wardrobe)? It's just painful trying to get to the vault NPC to open another window when one of the vaults is already open. Not to mention the fact that with all the horses now, the vault NPCs get buried and you can hardly find them to click on them.

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Yes, that's coming with the other vault updates.

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Originally Posted by ransroth

Yes, that's coming with the other vault updates.

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You rock. :D

That's VERY good to hear. It'd be different if I opened and closed one before opening another, but once one is opened, I also find it can be difficult to find the Vault-keeper to click on him again.

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Originally Posted by ransroth

Yes, that's coming with the other vault updates.

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You don't need to click on the vault keeper again, just press "u" (just as you do to farm a node, or open a door, search a chest, use anything, etc.)

If you have deselected the vault keeper, I believe it's F10 to select the nearest NPC then U (unless you've changed keyboard mappings, I have U on a side mouse button).


http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/3...ickensig00.jpg
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave

Just thought I would post in this thread. It seems I still have to wait a few seconds after selecting the option to open vault and open shared storage. Now, granted all the items appear at the same time instead of trickle in like the old vault. But, is it normal for there to still be a delay in the actual opening of the vaults?

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Originally Posted by Jenara

Been wanting to ask this for a long time, but keep forgetting ...

Is there a way to add a button to each vault that allows you to open the other ones (personal vault, shared vault, wardrobe)? It's just painful trying to get to the vault NPC to open another window when one of the vaults is already open. Not to mention the fact that with all the horses now, the vault NPCs get buried and you can hardly find them to click on them.

We used to be able to open shared vault from the personal vault, I used that button all the time. Would really love to have that capability again, extended to all the vault windows.

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Until that happens, F10 (Nearest NPC) and Delete (Use Item) are your friends. Unless you've mapped those to other keys, of course....