A big Thank You to Vastin

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

"Could you humour me" is generally a line people use when they want someone to do something for them without necessarily knowing the purpose of the task. In this case I just wanted to know what you considered to be a reasonable timeframe in terms of mob kill times so I could see if my following question would be appropriate.


If 4-6 seconds per mob is the ideal kill time per mob, how can the developers create any kind of challenge based on that timeframe? On a ranged class like Hunter 4-6 seconds could be longer than it takes the mob to run over to you so how can the developers adjust the mobs in order to ensure that they stand a chance of killing you?

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Hmm, making them faster for example. The chanlege is to survive when there are a lot of foes around you.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

I don't know what "could you humour me" means but I think 4-5-6 sec on a mob is normal if you have skills with maximum 1.5 sec induction.

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Then you should be fine with the new changes. If a player can kill 3 mobs in 45 seconds (approx 15 seconds per mob) and those creatures are 6 levels higher than the player...then it isn't a far leap to assume killing on-level mobs would fall into your acceptable time frame. And let's face it, on average, when folks are leveling up in this game they are--more often than not--higher in level than the area they are in.

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Originally Posted by Skyfoot

Then you should be fine with the new changes. If a player can kill 3 mobs in 45 seconds (approx 15 seconds per mob) and those creatures are 6 levels higher than the player...then it isn't a far leap to assume killing on-level mobs would fall into your acceptable time frame. And let's face it, on average, when folks are leveling up in this game they are--more often than not--higher in level than the area they are in.

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I doubt it is possible to deal with 3 mobs in 12-15 second now with blue hunter. Maybe some aoe classes can do it, I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

Hmm, making them faster for example. The chanlege is to survive when there are a lot of foes around you.

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LOTRO doesn't really do "lots of foes around you" though. Most regions cap a single pull to be ~3 enemies tops unless you venture into small fellowship spots.

As far as making them faster goes; let's say they are now able to get the full distance to you in 2 seconds, they now have 2-4 seconds to kill you, seems like they'd need pretty high damage right?

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

LOTRO doesn't really do "lots of foes around you" though. Most regions cap a single pull to be ~3 enemies tops unless you venture into small fellowship spots.

As far as making them faster goes; let's say they are now able to get the full distance to you in 2 seconds, they now have 2-4 seconds to kill you, seems like they'd need pretty high damage right?

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Why - who said? Imho this game is not about "challenges", it is about exploring and communication within Tolkien's fanbase. How long should a newcomer play to get to Gondor and have a walk in Minas Tirith without fearing to be killed by the first regular mob there?

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Originally Posted by Osweld

Why - who said? Imho this game is not about "challenges", it is about exploring and communication within Tolkien's fanbase. How long should a newcomer play to get to Gondor and have a walk in Minas Tirith without fearing to be killed by the first regular mob there?

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I'm just trying to get a sense of how powerful an enemy would have to be in order to kill a player, player death should be possible after all, right?

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

I'm just trying to get a sense of how powerful an enemy would have to be in order to kill a player, player death should be possible after all, right?

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Maybe, a little bit more powerful. I don't want to spend an hour on killing 15 wargs (cause all of them are in an orc camp with lots of them) to complete one single quest. The only class that gave me this opportunity was blue hunter. I really believe all classes should give that opportunity.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

Maybe, a little bit more powerful. I don't want to spend an hour on killing 15 wargs (cause all of them are in an orc camp with lots of them) to complete one single quest. The only class that gave me this opportunity was blue hunter. I really believe all classes should give that opportunity.

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For it to take an hour to kill 15 wargs you'd need an average combat time of 240s per warg. I get that you were kidding but let's be honest, 10-15 seconds per mob would be pretty darn fast still and would at least ensure you could get a general feel for multiple skills rather than the old one or two shots this game used to have (and still does have in a few cases).

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

For it to take an hour to kill 15 wargs you'd need an average combat time of 240s per warg. I get that you were kidding but let's be honest, 10-15 seconds per mob would be pretty darn fast still and would at least ensure you could get a general feel for multiple skills rather than the old one or two shots this game used to have (and still does have in a few cases).

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I wasn't kidding, to get all that wargs you have to deal with orcs. 4-6 seconds would give me enough feeling of using multiple skills. 10-15 sec for a regular mob is not fun at all and very slow and with the most quests "kill 15 monsters" is awfull, imho.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

I wasn't kidding, to get all that wargs you have to deal with orcs.

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Let's say 15 seconds per mob (it's really more 1/3rd of that right now but that's irrelevant for this). For it to take 1 hour to clear the camp you would need the camp to consist of 240 mobs. Camps in LOTRO typically struggle to exceed 25 mobs so can we please just try to be honest with one another?

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Let's say 15 seconds per mob (it's really more 1/3rd of that right now but that's irrelevant for this). For it to take 1 hour to clear the camp you would need the camp to consist of 240 mobs. Camps in LOTRO typically struggle to exceed 25 mobs so can we please just try to be honest with one another?

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You are not killing mobs one after another, plus moving, plus waiting one mob to step away from the others to not get all agro, plus waiting cooldowns, plus waiting heal bottles, plus setting a trap and plus many more you can get from 30 minutes and higher.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

You are not killing mobs one after another, plus moving, plus waiting one mob to step away from the others to not get all agro, plus waiting cooldowns, plus waiting heal bottles, plus setting a trap and plus many more you can get from 30 minutes and higher.

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Let’s say you have to kill 25 orcs just to get your warg quest done (the orcs really don’t have their own quest here?). That’ll make 600 seconds of combat if each mob was 15s. So you’re spending 3000 seconds doing the walking around here?

Overall it honestly seems like you picked the wrong class. Most hunter skills are induction based, Hunter has generally always had a heavy reliance on these induction skills until U19 screwed that up. Perhaps you should try yellow RK? That spec offers the induction less play style you seem to be seeking.

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Originally Posted by Osweld

You are not killing mobs one after another, plus moving, plus waiting one mob to step away from the others to not get all agro, plus waiting cooldowns, plus waiting heal bottles, plus setting a trap and plus many more you can get from 30 minutes and higher.

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Here's 15 goblins (including an elite) in a tight camp in 140s total including all of the above. Except - being a ranged class - I barely moved between pulls. I didn't bother pulling carefully. I didn't wait for any cooldowns, (skills or pots) or bother with traps, or even to wait and heal between pulls.

My skill selection was a bit messy too - I missed a lot of chances to use barrage, used barbed arrow way too much on low health targets.

I was definitely lucky to survive at one point - but wouldn't have got into that trouble had I not been so careless. It certainly seems to be that the bar is far too low at which poor play + poor gear = failure. Just how much worse did I have to play to lose?

Please, I'm honestly interested. In your opinion, in what way does my video show low level hunters are weak and need a buff? With the buff you want to the class, how much faster should that camp have taken me, without me playing it any differently?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wui5s5MGsRs&t=

(Forgot to show during the video, but he's still using a level 7 yellow crafted bow he bought off the AH for 6s)

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Originally Posted by Joedangod

Let’s say you have to kill 25 orcs just to get your warg quest done (the orcs really don’t have their own quest here?). That’ll make 600 seconds of combat if each mob was 15s. So you’re spending 3000 seconds doing the walking around here?

Overall it honestly seems like you picked the wrong class. Most hunter skills are induction based, Hunter has generally always had a heavy reliance on these induction skills until U19 screwed that up. Perhaps you should try yellow RK? That spec offers the induction less play style you seem to be seeking.

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Well, blue hunter offered that as well, from the time it was introduced with Helm's Deep trait trees until it was just killed with 22.2. U19 may have made blue OP, but that wasn't the fault of the original HD blue hunter design, but rather how the U19 buff was done. Another "bright idea" (massive focus damage increase) that was introduced with the first beta and stuck with in the face of massive negative feedback. Unfortunately, rather than fixing what was wrong with U19, we got another terrible mistake made to compound the original error.

Personally I don't mind if it takes a few seconds more per monster, what I enjoy is a fast and fluid gameplay. Not fast as in killing things right away, but fast as in zap zap zap, always having skills to send off, while running about like a crazy person :o And I get very frustrated if I have to stop and wait for things like focus, and especially problematic are skills that trick me into clicking them by mistake when they don't work. That brings me frustration. So my biggest problem would be the skill that now has different cooldowns. I lose track of when I can click it and when I can't, so I'll click it when it's on cooldown by mistake, over and over, which is frustrating especially when playing a long time. I hope it gets changed so it can have one consistent cooldown. I don't care about high damage, I just want a smooth fight that feels fluid and fast paced :)

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Originally Posted by Bohemond71

Here's 15 goblins (including an elite) in a tight camp in 140s total including all of the above. Except - being a ranged class - I barely moved between pulls. I didn't bother pulling carefully. I didn't wait for any cooldowns, (skills or pots) or bother with traps, or even to wait and heal between pulls.

My skill selection was a bit messy too - I missed a lot of chances to use barrage, used barbed arrow way too much on low health targets.

I was definitely lucky to survive at one point - but wouldn't have got into that trouble had I not been so careless. It certainly seems to be that the bar is far too low at which poor play + poor gear = failure. Just how much worse did I have to play to lose?

Please, I'm honestly interested. In your opinion, in what way does my video show low level hunters are weak and need a buff? With the buff you want to the class, how much faster should that camp have taken me, without me playing it any differently?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wui5s5MGsRs&t=

(Forgot to show during the video, but he's still using a level 7 yellow crafted bow he bought off the AH for 6s)

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I see you are good in playing. I was not talking about a specific camp with orcs, I was talking about how long compare to what it used to be the gameplay of blue hunter had become. If I hadn't ever played with blue hunter, I would never have been so dissapointed - actually I would never actually played lotro again, cause this very slow targeted gameplay almost had pushed me out, but then I found very joyable blue hunter and decided to give lotro a chance. And this class fully satisfied me - it was amazing. How can I use it again after I've seen it flying in the sky and now crawling on the ground? They really should buff all classes, maybe do a special "casual" trait line for each class, cause now (after blue hunter fall) entire gameplay is slow, consuming a lot of time(for a big group of people) and outdated, imho.

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Originally Posted by Silmelin

Personally I don't mind if it takes a few seconds more per monster, what I enjoy is a fast and fluid gameplay. Not fast as in killing things right away, but fast as in zap zap zap, always having skills to send off, while running about like a crazy person :o And I get very frustrated if I have to stop and wait for things like focus, and especially problematic are skills that trick me into clicking them by mistake when they don't work. That brings me frustration. So my biggest problem would be the skill that now has different cooldowns. I lose track of when I can click it and when I can't, so I'll click it when it's on cooldown by mistake, over and over, which is frustrating especially when playing a long time. I hope it gets changed so it can have one consistent cooldown. I don't care about high damage, I just want a smooth fight that feels fluid and fast paced :)

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Exactly this. And the now slower focus generation really bothers me as well. Maybe if they fix volley to actually be visible when available. Dump Barrage damage if need to but keep it on a regular cd.

The focus generation never was this high in lower levels either, so I can imagine that they feel hit harder. I haven't played a low level hunter in some time so my opinion how their play changed can really not be considered valuable.

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Originally Posted by wispsong

The focus generation never was this high in lower levels either, so I can imagine that they feel hit harder. I haven't played a low level hunter in some time so my opinion how their play changed can really not be considered valuable.

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For low levels, gameplay was more along the lines of hitting the focus generating skill (Is it called Hunter Focus?) before hitting the attacks every couple mobs, depending. I specifically remember doing that when deeding the wolfman guys in Evendim. And also for the Signature goblins in Lone Lands.

So for me it was: Focus, pen shot/barrage, pen shot/barrage; focus, pen shot/barrage, pen shot/barrage, etc. Or something like that.

I haven't tried my low level hunter since the update though.

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Originally Posted by Bohemond71

Here's 15 goblins (including an elite) in a tight camp in 140s total including all of the above. Except - being a ranged class - I barely moved between pulls. I didn't bother pulling carefully. I didn't wait for any cooldowns, (skills or pots) or bother with traps, or even to wait and heal between pulls.

My skill selection was a bit messy too - I missed a lot of chances to use barrage, used barbed arrow way too much on low health targets.

I was definitely lucky to survive at one point - but wouldn't have got into that trouble had I not been so careless. It certainly seems to be that the bar is far too low at which poor play + poor gear = failure. Just how much worse did I have to play to lose?

Please, I'm honestly interested. In your opinion, in what way does my video show low level hunters are weak and need a buff? With the buff you want to the class, how much faster should that camp have taken me, without me playing it any differently?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wui5s5MGsRs&t=

(Forgot to show during the video, but he's still using a level 7 yellow crafted bow he bought off the AH for 6s)

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I don't think you can make a point about hunters by showing a level 11 video. There is literally 0 thought put into how weak/strong classes are this early in the game, most people will get to level 20 in less than half a day. I don't think any class in the game has problems fighting hordes of on-level mobs, including elites, before they are level 20.

Thank you very much Vastin for your hard work, effort, and continued communication. I really appreciate all you have done to the Guardian and look forward to reading and contributing my opinion on continued changes in the future.
Cheers!

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Originally Posted by Osweld

They really should buff all classes, maybe do a special "casual" trait line for each class, cause now (after blue hunter fall) entire gameplay is slow, consuming a lot of time(for a big group of people) and outdated, imho.

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If you think that is what this game needs, I don't think MMORPG's are for you. Maybe try to find a single player RPG with a "very easy" difficulty setting.

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Originally Posted by Skyfoot

If you think that is what this game needs, I don't think MMORPG's are for you. Maybe try to find a single player RPG with a "very easy" difficulty setting.

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Something to be said for watching Twitch streams of games instead of playing them if people don't want to actually participate in the core gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Strider5548

I don't think you can make a point about hunters by showing a level 11 video. There is literally 0 thought put into how weak/strong classes are this early in the game, most people will get to level 20 in less than half a day. I don't think any class in the game has problems fighting hordes of on-level mobs, including elites, before they are level 20.

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If you read this back these people been arguing low level experience like that is now too hard.

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Originally Posted by siipperi

If you read this back these people been arguing low level experience like that is now too hard.

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Admittedly I did not read through the whole thread. I do find it interesting how many low level people are posting on the forums about the hunter update. I don't think I've ever seen another MMO with so much input coming from non end-gamers, I guess that is a good thing.

Personally I think that the game is easy enough for any class leveling up to 115, my problems w/ the hunter changes have nothing to do with the leveling experience, but I do understand how others find it important.

Not thankful here. Especially in light of the response closing this thread -- https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ustomers/page3

Seems to me there's a hint of, "#### and play the game the way I want you to play", in a very politely-worded justification. That's my perspective on it.

...and yes, I'm expecting to get zapped for this post. Won't make much difference to me, I'm not enjoying game play right now anyway. Having to relearn my class, by trying all the wonderful new "opportunities" in builds and traits and such Vastin suggests in his post, isn't fun to me. If a game isn't fun, why play?