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They haven't said yet. So, yeah, anything you read about it that isn't a direct quote from someone with a blue forum name has been pulled out of someone's butt and, no doubt, distorted to suit whatever their prejudice is.Quote:
Originally Posted by MurkyMajare
All this just reminds me why I avoided MMOs for so long before this game. Worst player bases ever.
I'm wondering if Capts could get both healing and melee offense calculated as some addition of multiples of will and might. e.g. something like the sume of 4xwill + 4xmight for both. That would let Captains stay as "hybrids" without having to either specialize in one of the two stats OR fall behind in DPS/Healing relative to those who do specialize...
Except we currently get Might X 10 for Melee Offense and Will X10 for healing (Will X1 for Tac Offense). Our complaint is that we should be treated like EVERY other class and have that merged to have everythign go off Might.Quote:
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
If LM, RK and Minstrels can get Tactical Offense, Healing, AND Melee off of Will, then Captains SHOULD get Melee, Tactical Offense and Healing off of Might. This would make Might our primary stat and let us focus on 1 primary stat instead of two.
This update is a stealth nerf through inactivity. The Dev's dont know how to fix captains, so I guess they decided to just leave them behind. Captain forums are all doom and gloom at the moment. Good luck finding a captain for that lvl 75 raid against the dragon. Its going to be worse than the last days of SoA.
I don't believe the doom and gloom myself, Captains are currently doing pretty well and will have to fall a fair bit before we become useless in a group context. I think avoiding falling is a reasonable goal, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by GDavey
I don't mind having to focus on 2 stats, I think the hybrid nature of Captains makes that reasonable, and I think having different classes work differently is a feature of sorts. I do think that IF we have to focus on 2 stats, there should be a compensation like the one I described. I believe that outgoing healing and melee offense from 4xmight + 4xwill would in fact work out very nicely, and perhaps even better than 10xmight. If you took a Captain and made him all might and no will your small power pool could well cause you issues, as the low will classes generally have other power mechanisms (huge ICPR via stances, or whatever) that Captains lack.
But your proposal will gimp Captain dps even further an example:Quote:
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
Currently, a captain with 500 might is getting 5000 melee offense from might, you proposal would mean a captain with 500 might & will would only get 4000 melee offense
Any variation of numbers is going to result in the same, it doesn't matter if your at 900, or at 25.
This issue is not just about melee offense though, as your proposed solution would gimp captain heals by the same amount as we currently get will x 10 for heals.
Captains need to be reviewed again and included as a special case like burglars. If the tactical classes get all they need from will, including melee offense, which by the way, is a substantial boost for lm that stand toe to toe, then captains should benefit from heals going off might. Otherwise, this IS a nerf through inactivity.
I was guilty of fuzzy math. But the idea holds that it is reasonable to base it off of the sum of Might and Will with a lesser multiplier than 10. Lesser because:Quote:
Originally Posted by GDavey
1) it is easier to get two stats pretty high than 1 vastly high
2) if we are going off of two stats, IDOME, helps both. You can jack two stats +50 (or +whatever come Isengard) with Tomes. Etc.
I'm still thinking there is some reasonable way to get both will and might to contribute to healing and to offense...
Um the 4x Might and 4x Will could be horrible since without caps it would hurt us unless we can get our combined Might + Will to be 25% HIGHER then another class focusing on just a single stat. Remember that there are only X number of stat points available on gear, this means we would need to use an extra 25% of those points just to break even with a class focused on one stat.Quote:
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
With the right itemization it wouldn't hurt, but still that would take far more effort coding wise than simply combining our Melee offense, Tactical Offense, and Outgoing healing into one stat like they have done for Minstrel, Rune-keeper, and Lore-master.
Also, maradakia to answer your question, no Developer has responded to anything for Captains for either this dev diary, or even the previous one that was made specifically for Captains and Lore-masters. However the Devs have responded to a Guardian question within this own thread, and a separate response about Finesse is also within this thread. The Captain Community is being ignored...what else is new? Heck even a one line/short response from any Dev saying 'We are aware you have concerns, we will do something about it, but we can't tell you yet. Just remember what the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy says for you to do. "DON'T PANIC!"'
But the Dev's won't even do anything along those lines to quell the doom'n gloom people... or to answer questions from the concerned. (I'll freely admit I'm among the concerned, but this isn't doom'n gloom yet as the big problem I see with this changes is mostly an itemization based one, as it would be easy to fix/resolve the captain primary stat issue, that can theoretically be avoided depending on what diminishing returns they use and what gear they provide so it could be minor or it could be game wrecking, not enough information to know which if either, so why assume the worst knowing that would alienate enough of the player base that they would consider letting subscriptions lapse and stop using the Lotro store as with bad itemization they can end up alienating not just Captains but EVERYONE... and Turbine wants to make money they aren't going to shoot themselves in a tender region, i.e. their own wallet.) What are they wanting the Captain Community to do? Turn on itself or someone else as if this was something out of Warhammer 40k?
I do have to wonder how they will address itemization for existing items that give multiple types of crit bonuses (ie both +tactical and +melee crit for example) or multiple resistances like +wound and +disease on the same item (as I've seen items with all four resists on it.) Will they let them stack due to the allotment of the stats already devoted to them as part of the item, or will they condense them and then leave those items weaker than the same item that had just one resist and/or crit on it along with other stats on it?
While I was slightly guilty of fuzzy math (see above), really given how itemization works do you think it will be that much easier to get 1 stat to 1000 than two to 600? Given that IDOME hits 2 stats with +75, Tomes hit two stats with +50(no doubt with more soon), and that items don't tend to be THAT 1 dimensional. And Captains will want some will anyway for their power pool?Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsydeon
Maybe my english isn't good enough to understand your logic... but why should the same mob hit someone with better equip and better stats harder than me? And why are you talking about a healer and captain buffs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xhiu
Do you always have a healer behind your back while questing or skirmishing? Or a captain? I haven't...
I was talking about landscape quests and skirmishes, not about group content. I think you want me to be confused :D
For me it would be a big difference if landscape mobs have 7k morale or 12k morale...
And what means "Chicken Little impressions"? Is this a phrase?
Numbers wise, you realize that adding +50 to Might, and having everything go off Might, or having +50 to Might and Will with a split are the same right? The only difference is Captains are forced to focus on two attributes and every other class in the game only has to focus on one stat to do their jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
You are basically talking about averaging Might and Will and then having everything go off those numbers, but here is why thats also a bad idea.
600 Might, 400 Will, currently 6000 melee offense, 4000 healing.
Average of 500. = 5000 Melee offense, and 5000 healing.
This is good for whichever stat is lower, but you gimp your higher stat and it then forces Captains to stack both stats which is what we have now.
I believe the majority of Captains would agree that we want a single stat to govern melee and healing, just like Minstrels, RK's, and LM. We want to be able to focus our build on a single strong stat like EVERY other class in the game is getting.
Since these changes are probably going to go live as is, with no change to how Captains operate, it IS going to result in a decrease in Captains at the end game, but since the only thing we will be bringing to the table is buffs anyways, I guess I can always buff a raids Crit and Morale and then switch to a useful class, like LM, that will Out DPS me, and with the Debuffs, is more useful than +75 to a few stats with IDOME
Finesse
Okay, so we increase the BPE caps, then make up a stat "Finesse" to (in actuality) bring BPE back down. Why in the world would you waste the development time to add finesse as a counter to BPE, when you could just simply keep the BPE cap? I have no understanding of this whatsoever; I'd love to see the rationale behind adding it!!!
Without stat caps depending on itemization they can be that lopsided for example a Champion could end up with 800 might at lvl 75 from gear for example, let's assume all other stat contributions are non-relevant between the Champion and Captain with the Captain except for the Captain's Will and Might. This would require the captain to needing a combined Will and Might of 1000 which means an average of 500 to each stat. This doesn't seem to bad yet even though the captain is having to spend an additional 200 points of stats from gear to match the Champion, this could be offset by the Captain's base Will (assuming if the base might for both champions and Captains are identical, but the Champion would probably have a higher base might so even more points from item stats would be needed that the Champion would be free to allocate to EVEN MORE Might, or to other stats to shore up secondary bonuses.Quote:
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
Now let's see what if the Champion has a base Might of 1000, then the Captain needs might and will averaging 625 Might and Will. The Champion only needs to devote 200 more in stats from gear (which may be possible with itemization) while the Captain would need to devote 250 in stats from gear just to match.
Deminishing returns wouldn't help the Captain since it would be applied to his might+will combined total so it would hit the Captain the same as the Champion. Just the Captain has to focus 25% more of his gear stats into two stats, one of which is NOT common on heavy armor.
Here is the problem, most heavy armor is light on Will as heavy armor can only be worn by Champions, Guardians, and Captains and of the three only Captains need much Will. While heavy armor is high on Might, each point of that might that the Captain can get the Champion can also get and each point of that Might would be 250% more effective for the Champion than the Captain if the champion gets 10x for offense while captains only get 4x for offense from might. In theory your formula would come out if stat allocations were all balanced in itemization, but they aren't. And before you say 'But captains could make up the will in jewelry' I can counter that with for each point of might+will a Captain could get in jewelry, the Champion could get just as many points in might in jewelry (even if it is only 80% of those points, the Captain's might+will from jewelry has to exceed 125% of the might the champion can get from jewelry just to match the offense contribution from the jewelry alone. And remember the Champion has already pulled ahead with the massive might from Heavy armor as the Devs are trying to make items usable by more classes so we won't see much if any non-Captain-specific heavy armor with both high will and might.
It is all based on itemization and the Devs are not going to screw two classes (Guardians and Champions) over to make items for one class (Captains), as they aren't going to limit Might on heavy armor to keep Captains from falling behind.
And that doesn't even get into the complexity for having to code gaining offense for a single type from two stats into the game engine. I seriously doubt that will happen as it would require messing with lots of formulas having to add in a new variable to handle the second stat's contribution. Your idea is nice in theory, but with itemization it wouldn't work as it would heavily penalize the Captain itemization wise. The issue is that without stat caps items CAN become that one dimensional and already are to some degree since there are limits to the amount of stats that can be on an item and 100 might costs as much in stats as 50 might and 50 will combined when it comes to item creation, yet to keep balanced the Captain would be needing an extra 25 stats in either might or will that the Champion could just feed into his/her own might and make the problem even more pronounced.
Look, the ratio picked for the sum was out of the air. Certainly 10*(will+might) is more powerful than 10xmight, so the multiplier would have to be less. And given that you can get 75 + 50 to your other stat from IDOME/tome, the extra to be made up if the multipler is 8 is pretty small. And Captains do want some will in any case for power. Seems to me that if it can be balanced so it is roughly a wash in terms of the net resulting offense/healing, getting your abilities from 2 stats instead of 1 is likely a win. Of course, the devil is in the details as always, and itemization MAY be a problem. I'd certainly say that either my solution or a single stat solution is better than what appears to be (not crystal clear) the current plan for Isengard, which is that the two stats add individually to healing or melee offense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsydeon
As to whether it is too complex or expensive for their game engine to deal with contributions of two stats, I don't believe it for a second (I program for a living). But not provable either way...
Quit bringing tomes and IDOME in to this please.Quote:
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
1st of all, not everyone buys stat tomes so no system should be balanced around the assumption that anyone will buy +50 to a stat.
Secondly, IDOME affects everyone equally. You cant assume that IDOME is a Captain only buff when its also going to be adding 75 Might to Champions and 75 Will to LM. Both of those classes will get more benefit from IDOME than we will because Even adding 75 to Will, that only increases Tac offense by 75, not the 750 that A LM will get.
Fine on the stat tomes, though it seems like many raiders at least tome up their primary stat.Quote:
Originally Posted by GDavey
As to IDOME, it does NOT affect every equally if doing my proposed 2 stat solution, which is the context I was discussing it in. If a Captain has 2 primary stats, it is adding 150 to the sum of the two.
example if the multiplier were 10* the sum for Captain.
Champ = (1000 + 75) * 10 = 10750
Captain = (500 + 75 + 500 + 75 ) * 10 = 11500
Which begins to illustrate why 10* the sum of the two is a bad idea...
Chiming in again to encourage Captains to push for Will to be their primary stat instead of Might. Captains burn through power pretty quickly; too few Captains bother with the -power cost legacies because they're too concerned with getting DPS legacies, and; if you're stacking Might, chances are you're not wearing a lot of ICPR jewelry (ICPR tends to be on "caster" jewelry). I'm not looking forward to grouping with level 75 captains with power pools the size of my Champ's power pool and 700 ICPR. :)
Yes, most of your battle skills are melee-based. Yes, a couple of your healing skills are melee-based. But your big heals are cry-based. And frankly, if we're already going to go down the road where a skinny LM who couldn't bench-press a twig is going to have 11k melee offense and hit really, really hard w/Staff Strike & Staff Sweep because he has tons of Will, then it makes just as much sense for DB, PA, and BoE to be based on Will as well. (Of course, that also makes the case for RC and WoC being Might-based, but perhaps we can at least have one thing make sense and keep all outgoing healing based on Will. Also, see the first paragraph.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
What your actually illustrating is why using a dual stat solution is a bad idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
A single stat is be preferable, since if you want Captains to be balanced with other classes then you need to keep it single stat, yes for dual stats 10* sum would be a problem however the solution is a 1 stat method like every other class. What your proposing makes things unnecessarily complicated and impossible to balance. I'm a programmer as well, but what your forgetting is that just because something sounds like it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done.
With two stats the modifier will either be too high and captains get too much benefit, or two low and not enough.
There is NO perfect modifier value solution using two stats, what you get is the equation 10x=(y+z)w.. No matter what you pick for 'w' there are going there is going to be issues with bonuses for example 10(x+b)=(y+z+2b)w with 'b' equaling the bonus from IDOME as it applies to every stat. What do you do for say Banner of War then which becomes 10(x+c)=(y+z+c)w since it applies to Might but not Will if you want that to also provide a balanced effect? Besides you cannot balance captains around IDOME or any other buff. No matter what you pick as your 'w' your going to end up with issues due to what 'x', 'y', and 'z' will end up as after gear stats.
The only balanced solution is a single stat solution like what is being done for the other classes, treating ANY one class differently is not treating it equally. I can't speak for every captain but I can speak for myself. I want to be treated equally. No preferential treatment and no ignored and kicked in the dirt compared to other classes.
I agree with this... this sounds like a replacement for Radiance.Quote:
Originally Posted by gonewhaned
They need to take a step back and wipe the glass clean and take another look at this "Finesse" implementation.
Hopefully this one stat will not have such an overbearing affect on combat that players without much of this will be excluded from the good stuff...
OK, so you will leave Will as low as a Guard or Champ. Will also is a nice part of your power pool, any plans/belief how that will work out for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsydeon
I'm not saying a 2 stat solution is the only way, mind you, but I'm not on board with saying Capts should be forced into stacking only Might/Vit either...
I'd have no qualms with Will being the primary stat if the itemization issue can be solved as it solves the issue of a class that can heal NOT having Will as it's primary stat. According to the PvMP ring set rewards, Will is being treated as our primary stat anyways as we are being lumped in with Lore-masters, Minstrels, and Rune-Keepers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestache
However Captains using Will as primary creates the issue of Heavy armor falling into two categories Might based for Champions and Guardians and Will based for Captains. The easier itemization solution is Captains use Might for offense and outgoing healing so that all heavy armor users rely on Might as primary thus all heavy armor can be used equally well by any heavy armor class. The simple solution as far as itemization is concerned is to use Might for melee offense, tactical offense, and outgoing healing. Then ALL heavy armor is built with high might in mind. Secondary stats would still be to the user's choice. But then it still keeps itemization easy to balance since they are wanting to eliminate the 'this item' is only good for a few classes of the many that could equip it. Why not have it be any class that can equip it can make good use of it?
Yes I seem to be in the minority of Captains as I actually use the '-power cost legacies' especially the -melee power one. I wear two ICPR bracelets and seek out jewelry that helps me keeps me from running out of power. Although with the rest of my jewelry I tried to not gimp any aspect as I play as an all-rounder Captain who bounces between HoH and LoM depending on what is needed of me. When Solo I almost always use the herald or archer over a banner. Heck in skirmishes I run with a Bannerguard and it has never failed me. May not be the highest DPS but I don't have to pay much attention to it at all and it doesn't die on me plus it helps my own survivability. (I will admit I am rather fond of the damage reflect buff the banner-guard can use.)
Actually no I'd not dump Will as a Captain we need the power pool. But I know that itemization will be an issue. Captains are probably going to have to be a Might/Vit/Wis combo or something, but itemization is going to make that difficult when Guardians (For the B/P/E) and most likely Champions (for the crits) are probably going to go Might/Vit/Agility for their heavy armor. The Devs would just need to explain what the 3 stat focuses are for other classes. Wardens and Guardians would be Might/Vit/Agility for the B/P/E, while Champions would probably be the same using Agility for crits as much as B/P/E when not in fervor. Rune-keepers, Minstrels, and Lore-masters are at least Will/Fate/Vit as they need Power, Morale, and regen. Plus Fate still affects Tactical Crit as far as stats are concerned as it is just offenses not the critical modifiers that are consolidated. Getting stats outside your primary three focus stats wouldn't be a waste, just isn't a key priority. Although Captains need a ton of regen due to our power costs but that could be adjusted or compensated for with +ICPR. (I already prefer prefer +ICPR over fate.)Quote:
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
I'd be happy if they could say each class has three key stats they focus on... with one being primary. For Captains we'd be Might/Vit/Will with split between Might and Will, but the issue is we can't itemize for that with the new 'we want to avoid gear being meant for only one class' and the two other Heavy Armor classes both seeming to be Might/Vit/Agility.
All the light armor users are now Will primary. Both Burglars and Hunters as medium armor users are Agility primary. I do feel sorry for the Warden's who are Might/Vit since that will likely become hard to get on medium armor.
With no caps on stats and this super simple gear itemization trend... things look to become pretty cookie cutter.. and that worries me MORE than the captains being left out of the stat update changes. Hell if they just upped Captains to 10* for tactical offense from Will, or lumped that into Might and left Outgoing healing off Will at 10*will, and assured us that we would be able to find heavy armor suited for Captains being Might/Vit/Will then we might not be so bad off as a Hybrid Class if we were able to get our Might and Will high enough to compete with other classes focused only on Might or Will between the two. However if that were to occur, it would mean a Champ or a Guardian would have a crazy power pool if they used Captain heavy armor without sacrificing much of their primary stat if anything. They would be getting something for nothing which would in turn cause itemization issues.
The only solution I can see would be to let Captains focus on one of Might OR Will without having to sacrifice a role. If they decide to go Will, and make Will heavy armor, then that would be fine with me but it would be heavy armor that would be likely to be useless to Guardians and Champions.
There are a lot of issues, and most revolve around the removal of stat caps and how it will affect itemization. I want to avoid forced cookie cutter gear builds and these changes seem to be forcing at least Captains into it, but odds are with itemization EVERYONE will be forced into cookie cutter gear builds get these items or you aren't going into the raid as you won't have the stats to do your roll... and that isn't even touching the effect of finesse which will probably only compound the issue. Again if they just decide to at least give Captains the 10*will for tactical offense, or toss tactical offense into Might and promise to make Might/Vit/Will heavy gear Captains will probably be able to manage. But it would require careful itemization and controlling how diminishing returns kicks in to prevent Captains from being stuck at worst at everything BUT buffing. I don't want to be a buffbot.
I say give capts the 10*(Might+Will). They need the extra melee offense with how bad their DPS is. This will also allow capts to stack will more over might for higher power pools while not lowering their melee offense. Sure they will get double the contribution from IDoME but again capts need the melee offense and while they would get higher outgoing heal it isn't really a drawback. The 2 stat with the 10* multipler works only because it is captains and they are already horrible DPS so the extra melee offense won't do much and they can be even more effective off heals/main heals(for some content) while minis and rks can still main heal the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
You know if the Minstrels are saying Captain DPS is that bad, then maybe, just maybe, the Devs will listen and do something (not necessarily the 10*(Might+Will) or even x*(Might+Will) where x would have to be at least 5 to prevent penalizing Captains on itemization which is the problem with 4*(Might+Will), although experiments with x between 5 and 10 might be interesting to run the math on depending on how they handle the itemization. Especially since diminishing returns on Offense would keep it from getting obscene anyways if they did decide to do that. But I still think a single stat would be the easier option. They just need to not itemize it to force Captains to have to dump Will or Might without penalizing Captains unfairly for trying to build them both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohankuten
I have never said we should be the sum two? Even if you use might & will x5, which theoretically is the same as might x10, it is not just because we are still having the captain have to stack two stats compared to everyone elses one.Quote:
Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise
This is a stealth nerf and a slap in the face to the captain players that like their class and have to put up with nerds like this. I defended Turbine when they made changes to relics. I said it would make it better for everyone except the people that spent hundreds of hours or gold maxing relics. You notice I don't have many posts because I am usually content to sit back and play, but this insult can not go unanswered! It is time for the captain community to stand up and say "He'll no, I will not go quietly in to that good night."
I'm popping last stand and it's time a dev, somewhere, actually listens to what we want as a class.
I would hope that, if the devs were to make Will the primary stat for Captains, that they would also make sure that the itemization devs in charge of creating crafted items were aware of it. It can't be that hard to make a set of heavy armor for Champs/Guards, and a 2nd set for Captains. Heck, with the multi-output tool available now, would it even be that difficult to make three sets? Might-heavy for Champs and OP guards; Vit-heavy for morale-stackers of all stripes and tanking guards; Will-heavy for Captains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elsydeon
In fact, this is something that the itemization devs should already be looking at anyway. Check out the medium armor wearers. Hunters and Burglars will want Agility-based armor, while Wardens will want Might-based armor. Here's hoping that the developers are communicating with each other regarding these changes.
It seems that the raid loot itemization devs have learned a bit from past mistakes at least, as the OD armor for Captains actually has Will on it. I'm not (too) worried about the raid armor sets as a whole, since that is tailored for each class anyway. (Odd/undesirable set bonuses notwithstanding, of course).
Quoting this portion just to admire the ability to sort of combine an anti-war chant, a line from a movie, and a line from a poem into a single quote that's not quite as effective as any of the three components are individually. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by GDavey