Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Captain

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Well, if you're going to be that nitpicking about dev diaries take a look at the Burglar one. Unlike Captains, it specifies "massive burst damage" rather than "heavy burst damage" and to my knowledge massive is of higher order than heavy ( http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...sive?q=massive ), so with that logic Burglars should do more burst damage than us.
The dev diary also does not specify heavy burst dps, it specifies heavy burst damage so you probably did misread it. Having high burst damage is not equal to having high DPS so your "Bring out some screenshots of parses where captains rock sustained (2 minutes+) 4-5k DPS" doesn't really have anything to do with the description in Dev Diary.

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Lol you accuse me of nitpicking then quibble over how big "big" is.

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Of course it's not for comparing with on-level DPS, but if you want to compare Captains with other class this 'raid' mob have some advantages. The lvl 89 'raid' mob work well as replacement Dummies as they have high morale, no special mechanics and deal low damage - and unlike the dummies, these bosses will not be resetting bleeds and debuffs every 10-20 seconds. So by getting other classes to have a go at the same mob, you'll have parses from single target fights with pretty much zero interruptions or mechanics to handle so all focus is on maximizing DPS.
If you can find a on-level mob with the same characteristics I'll go and test DPS on that mob.

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I've just played around with the turtle in filikul, I am actually surprised at how good its mitigations are, as my dps came in at 2744.1 over 2 minutes 51 seconds. Herald came in at 156.2. It may be due to beleriand damage type not being great against beast type. I had herald mainly popping heals on me so I turned off its other skills to maintain sufficient power for self heal.

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

EDIT: Also, I'd still like to see your proof behind this quote:

Your screenshot from Bells of Dale, despite the advantages of being ranged AoE, doesn't show Minstrels anywhere near "out DPS us by practically an order of magnitude".

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Gasp! I exaggerated ;)

Technically "nearly double" is not "practically an order of magnitude" except in binary, but for the purposes of illustration it is certainly evocative.


Oh and one more annoyance. I just realised while doing some playing around with the tanking build that every time you change specs it seems your herald is dismissed. Why?


And a bit of looking around the forums shows:

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Originally Posted by Sapience

12.1 is not a hotfix. It's a patch (and a good sized one at that). We had a hotfix previously in 12.0.1.

Currently the plan is shortly before the Yule Festival which is currently slated to start on the 18th.

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I do wonder if the changes are already set or if our current discussion has any influence on them.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Lol you accuse me of nitpicking then quibble over how big "big" is.

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Exactly. I just wanted to show the nitpicky perspective doesn't really serve your "Captains should do 4-5k DPS" PoV.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

I've just played around with the turtle in filikul, I am actually surprised at how good its mitigations are, as my dps came in at 2744.1 over 2 minutes 51 seconds. Herald came in at 156.2. It may be due to beleriand damage type not being great against beast type. I had herald mainly popping heals on me so I turned off its other skills to maintain sufficient power for self heal.

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Hmm, I can give him a go. Do you know if other classes have done so?

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Gasp! I exaggerated ;)

Technically "nearly double" is not "practically an order of magnitude" except in binary, but for the purposes of illustration it is certainly evocative.

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I don't mind exaggeration per default, but for someone saying "screenshot or it didn't happen" at others in the same discussion, such exaggeration doesn't fit in IMO.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

I do wonder if the changes are already set or if our current discussion has any influence on them.

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Well, I hope they prove me wrong but I don't think this game will see decently balanced content for months.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Oh and one more annoyance. I just realised while doing some playing around with the tanking build that every time you change specs it seems your herald is dismissed. Why?

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Isn't that working just like when we used to visit the Bards? Although I never had played a captain until LotRO 12.*, it seems as though all skills were shut down after applying changes at the Bard using other classes (e.g. LM pet disappearing).

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by StinkyGreene

Isn't that working just like when we used to visit the Bards? Although I never had played a captain until LotRO 12.*, it seems as though all skills were shut down after applying changes at the Bard using other classes (e.g. LM pet disappearing).

Cheers!

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That makes sense and would in fact be a likely cause. It is however very very annoying. Maybe we could ask for a fix?



On other topics, I am hoping for a major rebalance soon, seems some classes are hugely overpowered, and others only slightly so. And some seem to do "ok".

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

That makes sense and would in fact be a likely cause. It is however very very annoying. Maybe we could ask for a fix?

On other topics, I am hoping for a major rebalance soon, seems some classes are hugely overpowered, and others only slightly so. And some seem to do "ok".

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Turning off things like the herald is actually fully intentional, otherwise you'd be able to maintain some bonuses without actually having the appropriate trait slotted. Many item sets used to run into the same issue.

Balance is certainly something we're looking at.

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Originally Posted by RockX

Turning off things like the herald is actually fully intentional, otherwise you'd be able to maintain some bonuses without actually having the appropriate trait slotted. Many item sets used to run into the same issue.

Balance is certainly something we're looking at.

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It would be a serious quality of life improvement if there was an autosummon on respec toggle. Pets still need a LOT of work, or a viable alternative.

Glad to see balance is on the cards. You still never answered my (imho perfectly reasonable) question on what the red line captains _intended_ dps rank is. Have you decided yet?

Probably something that is mentioned over and over again but captains seem way to OP in the moors at the moment, is there something us creeps are doing wrong? They can survive unlimited damage it seems with the special Shields skill they get, and all of their bleeds seem to last forever... Last night on brandy was a joke with 3 captains just running around vs 20 of us in the middle of orc camp, and they won... Literally OOC was going bonkers with rage, and too right!

I hope the orthanc 2 piece DPS set bonus is being looked at. Feels a little OP atm...

Please describe the training and equipment these yellow line captains were using to obtain these results. I'm finding yellow line in moors to be underwhelming or maybe I'm only encountering highly ranked audacity bugged creeps.

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Originally Posted by Captaculous

Please describe the training and equipment these yellow line captains were using to obtain these results. I'm finding yellow line in moors to be underwhelming or maybe I'm only encountering highly ranked audacity bugged creeps.

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Use Noble Mark. Every time you hit, you get 1% morale return ;).

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Originally Posted by Captaculous

Please describe the training and equipment these yellow line captains were using to obtain these results. I'm finding yellow line in moors to be underwhelming or maybe I'm only encountering highly ranked audacity bugged creeps.

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Underwelming? seriously are you joking? These guys rock the moors creep groups of 10 are scared of 2 captains atm.

Hey guys haven't posted in a while, but fret not, still committed to the Captain.

So Rock, first of all thank you for an unprecedented stint as Captain dev, first time we've had such a communicative, involved and understanding dev.
Really happy with a lot of the changes.

There is one issue I have to bring up, I'm not sure if its just me or a problem other classes face but in my mind the melee combat has become really sluggish again, skill take long to react, it's hard to hit anything that is moving because of the limited melee range and even an immediate skill like fighting withdrawal or kick doesn't seem to actually go off immediately. It's done much to lessen my enjoyment of the class and lotro as a whole, I'm assuming you guys are aware of this and working on it, if not..well, maybe it's just me?

Secondly, since the changes with heralds we have basically been reverted to a pet using class, and I understand you want to bring our heralds more in line with LM pets in other ways as well...and well...call me selfish or jealous..but I want War-wolf too :) (or other type of MC pet)
Feels wrong that the other pet class in the game should have a companion when riding on his warsteed and we don't.
Any way this can be addressed :)

Overall, I'm a happy Captain, have yet to explore all the new features though but once I have I'll be sure to give you some more feedback.

Is it ok for Captain to tank and heal as well as other classes, or is it only DPS where we belong at the bottom? I guess I don't understand why people say "I'm ok with being at the bottom because of the buffs I bring". Yellow brings buffs, should that spec tank worse than, say, a guardian? Or is DPS the only thing that matters to anyone?

You can't really have a 3-spec trait system, with defined roles, then not allow certain classes' roles to be on par with the other classes' roles (DPS or otherwise). It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Some of the other classes are overperforming and need to be brought down in terms of DPS.

As far as I can tell, Captains can still tank and heal pretty well. DPS has improved as well. The real benefit is all the buffs that Captains have, which makes up for lower DPS or lower tanking, I think.

Hmmmmm, so oathies still lasts for 20 seconds, with a reset every 20 seconds. So 100% up time...interesting balance attempts....

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Originally Posted by agnek

Is it ok for Captain to tank and heal as well as other classes, or is it only DPS where we belong at the bottom? I guess I don't understand why people say "I'm ok with being at the bottom because of the buffs I bring". Yellow brings buffs, should that spec tank worse than, say, a guardian? Or is DPS the only thing that matters to anyone?

You can't really have a 3-spec trait system, with defined roles, then not allow certain classes' roles to be on par with the other classes' roles (DPS or otherwise). It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

Some of the other classes are overperforming and need to be brought down in terms of DPS.

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Well Captains do tank worse? At least I'm quite sure they outperform us on a couple of important parameters. Wardens and Guardians can forcetaunt up to 10 targets, Captanks up to 6. Wardens and Guardians can get 90% mitigation or more, Captains can get 83%. Wardens can get rather massive partial BPEs and AFAIK guardians can also get higher partials than Captains. However, we beat them in terms of boosting incoming healing, lowering incoming damage and buffing+healing the group.

As I see it, what really matters is the usefulness of each class. If we are to beat another DPS specced class just on DPS, how would they ever get even close to us in terms of usefulness? We supply DPS, bit of heals and a lot of buffs to buff damage+attackspeed for your group (Standard of War affects all freep in radius!) and increase incoming DPS on the mob. We supply so much more than our own DPS, I don't see any other class bringing anything just nearly as useful as Captain buffs, so if they don't beat Captains on DPS they'll be left in the dust.

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Well Captains do tank worse? At least I'm quite sure they outperform us on a couple of important parameters. Wardens and Guardians can forcetaunt up to 10 targets, Captanks up to 6. Wardens and Guardians can get 90% mitigation or more, Captains can get 83%. Wardens can get rather massive partial BPEs and AFAIK guardians can also get higher partials than Captains. However, we beat them in terms of boosting incoming healing, lowering incoming damage and buffing+healing the group.

As I see it, what really matters is the usefulness of each class. If we are to beat another DPS specced class just on DPS, how would they ever get even close to us in terms of usefulness? We supply DPS, bit of heals and a lot of buffs to buff damage+attackspeed for your group (Standard of War affects all freep in radius!) and increase incoming DPS on the mob. We supply so much more than our own DPS, I don't see any other class bringing anything just nearly as useful as Captain buffs, so if they don't beat Captains on DPS they'll be left in the dust.

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It really don't understand why people get so weird about DPS. All the DPS specs should be doing similar damage. How is "I bring useful stuff" fun? The DPS Captain is the guy at the barbecue who brought the tongs to flip the meat. Woohoo! Thanks, mate! You're useful. At the end of the day this is a game, and people want to have fun. I think this game and others have proven that a support class is pretty much a dud. It's holy trinity, not holy fourity.

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Originally Posted by Eomon

Hmmmmm, so oathies still lasts for 20 seconds, with a reset every 20 seconds. So 100% up time...interesting balance attempts....

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I have greater Erebor set and it only has a "chance" to reset on a shadows lament critical, and the reset only works once every 90 seconds.

Which cappy resets it every 20s? What gear gives them that ability?

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Originally Posted by agnek

It really don't understand why people get so weird about DPS. All the DPS specs should be doing similar damage. How is "I bring useful stuff" fun? The DPS Captain is the guy at the barbecue who brought the tongs to flip the meat. Woohoo! Thanks, mate! You're useful. At the end of the day this is a game, and people want to have fun. I think this game and others have proven that a support class is pretty much a dud. It's holy trinity, not holy fourity.

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The Captain is a supporter class and buffs are a central part of the class regardless of spec. Just to point it out, when specced LtC about 12-13 of Captain skills are damaging skills and easily 14 or more of Captain skills are either (de)buffing/healing skills or damaging skills that also (de)buffs/heals. If you don't see the fun part in 'bringing useful stuff' like buffs, I can't reach any other conclusion except you'd be better off playing a different class instead of Captain.
Who is arguing about a fourity or whatever you're on about? The Captain buffs fit well into the trinity as they buff DPS, healing and survivability.

Also, as for stating all DPS specs should be doing similar damage would require massive changes to most if not all classes because classes excel at different kinds of fights. Some classes, like yellow Champion and red Minstrels excel at AoE damage, so for AoE oriented fights such classes will easily outDPS singletarget classes like Burglar. Other fights favor ranged over melee and vice versa, again giving some classes advantages compared to other classes.

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I can't reach any other conclusion except you'd be better off playing a different class instead of Captain.

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That's not a very smart assessment. Captains have been designed to be a DPS class. It's their Red-line trait tree. If he enjoys a DPS role he can most certainly play that way on a captain. In fact if Turbine made a specific DPS tree for cappies then it's incumbent on them to ensure that it meets or exceeds the dps role of other classes.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

That's not a very smart assessment.

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Nice of you to cut the quoted sentence in half to make it easier to attack it.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

Captains have been designed to be a DPS class.

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No. Captain has been designed to be a class that can take on a DPS, healing or tank role (or hybrid if you wish) by combining role-specific skills with buffs and debuffs. Saying Captain is a DPS class is ignoring at least 2/3 of what the Captain can be considering the possibilities in hybrid builds.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

It's their Red-line trait tree. If he enjoys a DPS role he can most certainly play that way on a captain.

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I never said he can't do the DPS role on a Captain (as that would be silly), but if buffs/support isn't his thing I still think he'd be better off with a different class because buffs are such a big part of this class.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

In fact if Turbine made a specific DPS tree for cappies then it's incumbent on them to ensure that it meets or exceeds the dps role of other classes.

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'meets or exceeds the dps role of other classes' is very different from the 'doing same DPS than the other classes' that agnek is talking about. I fully agree that Captains should be on level with other classes when it comes to fulfilling the DPS role. However, because a lot of the Captains contribution to the DPS role comes from buffing himself and his group, it simply doesn't make sense that Captains should also be doing similar DPS. If Captains do similar DPS of other classes on top of the buffs Captains have they will be vastly superior to those other classes.

And as I've asked several times earlier in this thread I'll ask again: Who should be doing less DPS than Captains and why? Several in this thread have stated Captains shouldn't be bottom of that list and I've yet to get any suggestions on who should be under us.

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I never said he can't do the DPS role on a Captain (as that would be silly), but if buffs/support isn't his thing I still think he'd be better off with a different class because buffs are such a big part of this class.

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Yes and you are wrong. Captain's are designed to spec DPS. If a player enjoys DPS they should not have to change class and delete their cappy. If it's because cappy's have ###### dps then Turbine made a mistake and should fix the DPS line. You shouldn't conclude that he should change classes, you should conclude that Turbine should fix it and make it playable so he can DPS on his cappy and get invited to groups as a DPS cappy. Just like how RK's get invites as a DPS RK, and LM's get invites as DPS.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

Yes and you are wrong. Captain's are designed to spec DPS.

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But that's not the same as filling a primary DPS role in a large group. Every class has a red trait line but it's not intended to make all classes become primary DPS classes. Instead that red line is for soloing and small fellowships and for assisting DPS in larger groups. For a captain the assistance with DPS is very high in red trait lines, the individual damage numbers may not be stupendous but the added benefit to the rest of the group makes up for that.

Too many people having difficulty thinking outside of a shallow tank/heal/dps viewpoint.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

But that's not the same as filling a primary DPS role in a large group. Every class has a red trait line but it's not intended to make all classes become primary DPS classes. Instead that red line is for soloing and small fellowships and for assisting DPS in larger groups. For a captain the assistance with DPS is very high in red trait lines, the individual damage numbers may not be stupendous but the added benefit to the rest of the group makes up for that.

Too many people having difficulty thinking outside of a shallow tank/heal/dps viewpoint.

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RK's have high dps when dps traited
LM's have high dps when dps traited
Burgs have high dps when dps traited
Wardens have high dps when dps traited
Champs have high dps when dps traited
Minstrels have high dps when dps traited
Guardians have ??? dps when dps traited
Captains have low dps when dps traited

Cappies need to be fixed to also have high dps just like every other class (guardians too maybe)

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

Yes and you are wrong. Captain's are designed to spec DPS. If a player enjoys DPS they should not have to change class and delete their cappy.

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Again, there is no 'should change class', there is no 'has to change class', it is nothing but a suggestion he can choose to follow or not. If he played a Lore-master and didn't like to use skills that have inductions I'd suggest him to play another class. That doesn't mean he is forced to change class, but chances are he'd enjoy a different class more because it would probably fit his playstyle better.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

If it's because cappy's have ###### dps then Turbine made a mistake and should fix the DPS line. You shouldn't conclude that he should change classes, you should conclude that Turbine should fix it and make it playable so he can DPS on his cappy and get invited to groups as a DPS cappy. Just like how RK's get invites as a DPS RK, and LM's get invites as DPS.

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That's the thing though, getting a DPS slot is extremely easy as a Captain. Not only because of our DPS, not only because of our buffs but because of the combination of DPS and buffs. There's not really much to fix in regards to 'making Captains playable' as they are already very playable.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

RK's have high dps when dps traited
LM's have high dps when dps traited
Burgs have high dps when dps traited
Wardens have high dps when dps traited
Champs have high dps when dps traited
Minstrels have high dps when dps traited
Guardians have ??? dps when dps traited
Captains have low dps when dps traited

Cappies need to be fixed to also have high dps just like every other class (guardians too maybe)

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No proof and not a single suggestion to how you reach this conclusion. I'll just make my own then:

LM's have high dps when dps traited
Burgs have high dps when dps traited
Wardens have high dps when dps traited
Champs have high dps when dps traited
Minstrels have high dps when dps traited
Guardians have high dps when dps traited
Captains have good dps and awesome buffs when dps traited