Player Guide: Class Changes Summary: Captain

The ONLY way a captain could do more DPS is if they removed all the captains buffs.

Look at how we increase the damage of the group/raid while red traited.

10% from mark
30% from banner
25/15% from to arms
35% from oathbreakers
8% from bladebrother
2% from herald
3838 tactical/physical mastery and 1151 critical rating from sure strike
Our banner also increases crit to the whole group
15% attack speed routing cry
Blade of Elendil damage

Lets also look at the other buffs we provide during a fight while red trait.

7/4% damage reduction from to arms
15/9% outgoing healing
5% outgoing healing from sure strike

Now other utility while red trait
Rallying Cry Heal
Inspire Heal/Power
Muster Courage

For those arguing you need more damage do the math. Take a boss fight and lets calculate how much damage you added to the group/raid and now add it to your own DPS. I bet you beat everyone by a long shot.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

Cappies need to be fixed to also have high dps just like every other class (guardians too maybe)

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We do have high dps, just not as high as others. Everyone right now has a ridiculous amount of DPS. So captain is not as ridiculous as everyone else, but is still ridiculous. There is no issue with damage when soloing, and no issue with damage while in a group either. Is there a specific problem that needs fixing, where it is difficult to play the captain because damage is too low? As far as I can see, captains are still getting invited to groups all the time and no one is leaving them out merely because their damage isn't as overpowered as it could be.

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Originally Posted by ssslippy

8% from bladebrother

For those arguing you need more damage do the math. Take a boss fight and lets calculate how much damage you added to the group/raid and now add it to your own DPS. I bet you beat everyone by a long shot.

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Most groups now that invite a captain expect/want the cappy to be either tanking, or healing. It's likely the cappy will be in one of those stances, so they won't have access bladebrother. It will be song or shield.

This is why dps cappies are looked over because if a group alredy has one cappy tanking/healing they won't usually want a 2nd cappy, they would much rather fill a dps position with a champ/hunter/burg or grab a LM if they don't have one.

It's why dps cappies are not desired.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

Most groups now that invite a captain expect/want the cappy to be either tanking, or healing. It's likely the cappy will be in one of those stances, so they won't have access bladebrother. It will be song or shield.

This is why dps cappies are looked over because if a group alredy has one cappy tanking/healing they won't usually want a 2nd cappy, they would much rather fill a dps position with a champ/hunter/burg or grab a LM if they don't have one.

It's why dps cappies are not desired.

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I have run multiple all the time one blue and one red. I can heal 6 mans while in red also they dont exact hit hard. Not sure which server you are on but it makes no difference.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

Most groups now that invite a captain expect/want the cappy to be either tanking, or healing. It's likely the cappy will be in one of those stances, so they won't have access bladebrother. It will be song or shield.

This is why dps cappies are looked over because if a group alredy has one cappy tanking/healing they won't usually want a 2nd cappy, they would much rather fill a dps position with a champ/hunter/burg or grab a LM if they don't have one.

It's why dps cappies are not desired.

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"Most groups" is really not a viable source IMO. We're a month into this expansion and the class revamps and there are still MANY players out there who barely know how their own class works nevermind the other 8 classes they haven't played. Chances are those "most groups" simply don't know what a Captain can do now and how good they are at fulfilling DPS/heal/tank role. Just because people don't know Captains are really good healers doesn't make the Captain a bad healing class and the very same goes for tanking and DPS.

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Just because people don't know Captains are really good healers doesn't make the Captain a bad healing class and the very same goes for tanking and DPS.

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Everyone knows Captains are great healers. Everyone now knows Captains are great tanks. Almost no one knows/understands/thinks that a Captain is a great DPS machine; because they are not.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

It's why dps cappies are not desired.

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I'm in a group with 3 captains at the moment, we've got tank/dps/heal covered just with us.

No one has rejected me in helm's deep yet because I was red traited, but a couple times I volunteered to help with my second specialization.

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Originally Posted by Lohi

I'm in a group with 3 captains at the moment, we've got tank/dps/heal covered just with us.

No one has rejected me in helm's deep yet because I was red traited, but a couple times I volunteered to help with my second specialization.

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That happens sometimes.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

Everyone knows Captains are great healers. Everyone now knows Captains are great tanks. Almost no one knows/understands/thinks that a Captain is a great DPS machine; because they are not.

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That is simply not true. I see many players who don't know that Captains are good healers and tanks. Captains are not 'great DPS machine', they do good DPS and complement it with awesome buffs.

Sorry Enginekid, El Ranti cant seem to provide any proof of his own (still waiting on his DPS parses). But yeah, basically every class out dps us now, even if they also "bring stuff" such as a burg with debuffs or a minstrel with buffs.

Please note, I repeat: I do not expect us to out DPS pure DPS classes like hunter/champ/RK. I do expect us to be comparable to say a Burg (debuff to our buff) or a minstrel (healer/buffer) or a warden or a guard...

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Sorry Enginekid, El Ranti cant seem to provide any proof of his own (still waiting on his DPS parses).

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El Ranti? Classy, especially considering who is actually the main source of whine and complains in this thread.

Well, I wanted to wait until I've gotten the DPS pieces I wanted but here you go:

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/4512/knxf.jpg

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

But yeah, basically every class out dps us now, even if they also "bring stuff" such as a burg with debuffs or a minstrel with buffs.

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Ignoring DPS for a second do you seriously think the "stuff" DPS (which would be QK spec?) Burglar brings is on par with what a LtC Captain brings?
Counter Defence gives -critical defence rating now instead of the pre-HD +x% crit chance
Reveal Weakness gives +4% incoming damage and -critical defense rating where it used to give 8-10% incoming damage
They can make CJs more often now I think, but AFAIK CJs still aren't worth much.

I'll gladly admit I'm don't know much about Burglars, but I've been having a look at their trait trees + playerguide and I can't see their buffs/debuffs being anywhere near that a LtC Captain brings.

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

Please note, I repeat: I do not expect us to out DPS pure DPS classes like hunter/champ/RK. I do expect us to be comparable to say a Burg (debuff to our buff) or a minstrel (healer/buffer) or a warden or a guard...

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Well, we plainly disagree then. Captains should be just as useful as the other classes when it comes to taking a DPS spot, but given our superior buffs our DPS should not be as good as the other classes.

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

El Ranti? Classy, especially considering who is actually the main source of whine and complains in this thread.

Well, I wanted to wait until I've gotten the DPS pieces I wanted but here you go:

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Sry but i dont believe your post. Cappies do not parse 4000+ DPS

Maybe 2500, but not 4k

I have a 95 cappy with the best DPS gear and the best redline tree setup, and i never came close to parsing 4k

i suggest you go to snowbourne and fight the level 85 training dummy and record it so we can see it realtime, i wanna see your 4k parse

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

Sry but i dont believe your post. Cappies do not parse 4000+ DPS

Maybe 2500, but not 4k

I have a 95 cappy with the best DPS gear and the best redline tree setup, and i never came close to parsing 4k

i suggest you go to snowbourne and fight the level 85 training dummy and record it so we can see it realtime, i wanna see your 4k parse

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Well, I picked the Turtle because Aard mentioned it:

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Originally Posted by aardnebby

I've just played around with the turtle in filikul, I am actually surprised at how good its mitigations are, as my dps came in at 2744.1 over 2 minutes 51 seconds. Herald came in at 156.2. It may be due to beleriand damage type not being great against beast type. I had herald mainly popping heals on me so I turned off its other skills to maintain sufficient power for self heal.

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As for not believing the parse I don't know what to tell you, but I can supply the full pictures from the fight:
(I usually use Imageshack but it doesnt seem to work, let me know if these links are bugged):
http://postimg.org/image/7gv41hp5p/
http://postimg.org/image/f878mb3x9/

I also have a parse from last week:
http://postimg.org/image/59m9ztuhp/

I later found out that parse from last week was made with my healing emblem, losing out on 25% light damage, 15% SL damage, 25% Sure Strike damage, 10s Time of Need, 25% DB/PA damage and having healing-focused relics, so I didn't post that parse. The DPS is fairly close to my latest parse though due to really good crit %.

I don't like parsing on the 85 Dummy because it constantly resets the Telling Mark and bleeds and thereby makes our DPS look a lot worse than it actually is. That's why I made a parse on that lvl 89 mob some weeks ago.

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Well, I picked the Turtle because Aard mentioned it:



As for not believing the parse I don't know what to tell you, but I can supply the full pictures from the fight:
(I usually use Imageshack but it doesnt seem to work, let me know if these links are bugged):
http://postimg.org/image/7gv41hp5p/
http://postimg.org/image/f878mb3x9/

I also have a parse from last week:
http://postimg.org/image/59m9ztuhp/

I later found out that parse from last week was made with my healing emblem, losing out on 25% light damage, 15% SL damage, 25% Sure Strike damage, 10s Time of Need, 25% DB/PA damage and having healing-focused relics, so I didn't post that parse. The DPS is fairly close to my latest parse though due to really good crit %.

I don't like parsing on the 85 Dummy because it constantly resets the Telling Mark and bleeds and thereby makes our DPS look a lot worse than it actually is. That's why I made a parse on that lvl 89 mob some weeks ago.

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I'll only accept a video of you alone unbuffed by other players fighting the lvl 85 dummy in snowbourne.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

I'll only accept a video of you alone unbuffed by other players fighting the lvl 85 dummy in snowbourne.

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I have absolutely zero interest in what you will accept. Furthermore, I have already stated perfectly good reasons as to why a Dummy parse will never show the actual DPS of a Captain, the dummy reset simply happens way too often requiring the Captain to reapply Telling Mark and losing out on bleed ticks.

Also, I have yet to see any other videos of parses, searching on Youtube isn't giving me any results.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

Sry but i dont believe your post. Cappies do not parse 4000+ DPS

Maybe 2500, but not 4k

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Not polite to call someone who puts up pictures a liar. It would be much more civil to ask just how they did it though (I'd be interested in the skill breakdown tab myself).

I parsed something like 8000 DPS for over 100000 total damage on foot against on level mobs. Really. Don't have a screenie though. It was one of those silly quest line things where I had a ton of pretty weak opponents, dropped the standard of war for over 5K a mob, a few PAs and a routing cry later and there I was.

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Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

It would be much more civil to ask just how they did it though (I'd be interested in the skill breakdown tab myself).

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I can't give that though as I logged off my Captain, at least not for now. I just wanted to make a quick response to Aards: "(still waiting on his DPS parses)", but once locks are off and I can find time to have some goes at Filikul again I'll make a video on it.

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I have absolutely zero interest in what you will accept. Furthermore, I have already stated perfectly good reasons as to why a Dummy parse will never show the actual DPS of a Captain, the dummy reset simply happens way too often requiring the Captain to reapply Telling Mark and losing out on bleed ticks.

Also, I have yet to see any other videos of parses, searching on Youtube isn't giving me any results.

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Ya like its really hard to record it and post it to youtube.
why dodge the dummy parse, is it because your parses are on weak mobs with no resists or anything?
why not do the dummy parse to shut me up? i got 2400 in a 3min dummy parse. lets see yours pls rather than an unknown group of mobs

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

Ya like its really hard to record it and post it to youtube.

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Of course it isn't, but it takes a lot longer time for a couple of reasons:
1. I formatted my computer last weekend and didn't have the recording software installed and set up (I do now though)
2. My other parse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6UAO92SWxY took more than 90 minutes to upload

Therefore I chose just to take screenshots so I could post it here a lot faster than I'd be able to with a video parse.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

why dodge the dummy parse, is it because your parses are on weak mobs with no resists or anything?

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I've already specified why twice in my latest posts, you're not doing anyone any favors by ignoring that and acting like a kid.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

why not do the dummy parse to shut me up?

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Because I so enjoy your whining in here.

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Originally Posted by enginekid88

i got 2400 in a 3min dummy parse. lets see yours pls rather than an unknown group of mobs

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Unknown group of mobs? The screenshots clearly show the parse is done on Nornuan.

If everyone's parsing against the turtle, what does it matter anyway?

Also, bleeds are a pretty big chunk of our DPS, and thr training dummies are pretty bad about arbitrarily resetting them, so they are actually about the worst target to do parses on.

I would also like to see a video, but more for instructional purposes than anything else.

Just had a go at BG. Those Guldur Ruin-wights are a really good example of how our bleeds, while situational, can make for some really fine DPS:

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/7425/glei.jpg
http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/8421/1ldc.jpg

With a proper rotation and a bit of luck, you should be able to get a lot higher DPS than this though.

The tl:dr here that we're capable of DPS equivalent to the primary classes if we build and play for it?

Also, can you screenshot your traits and LIs?

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

The tl:dr here that we're capable of DPS equivalent to the primary classes if we build and play for it?

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I don't know where the 'primary classes' are in terms of DPS, but a wellgeared Hunter with RoA spam should be beating 8k DPS easily in this particular trashpull.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Also, can you screenshot your traits and LIs?

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http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/5549/5bbc.jpg

As you can see my Halberd isn't exactly finished, the passives are bad (and since I want one with better passives I haven't bothered swapping To Arms for Melee Crit yet despite having a swap weapon), so there's still room for some improvement there.

EDIT: As for proper rotation with AoE bleeds what you want to do is to pop Standard of War early, then Cutting Attack, then Inspire and Shadows Lament in hope of getting autocrit. If you get autocrit use Time of Need + To Arms and then apply Grave Wound on the Cutting Attack'd target, all of the Grave Wound bleed ticks will crit, and with 10-15 targets like in those Guldur Wight groups, that is a lot of damage just from GW bleeds. I did not have autocrit on GW in the parse I posted on the Wight, so there should be a lot of room for improvement.
The Autocrit on GW is also very valuable in single target IMO, I used it in the Filikul parse when possible. It is also a really good idea to consider Bleed pulses legacy on your LI if you try to rely on this setup, which is yet another factor I can improve on my setup.

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

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LM's have high dps when dps traited
Burgs have high dps when dps traited
Wardens have high dps when dps traited
Champs have high dps when dps traited
Minstrels have high dps when dps traited
Guardians have high dps when dps traited
Captains have good dps and awesome buffs when dps traited

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Just going to quote something else from you really quickly, one second...

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

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No proof and not a single suggestion to how you reach this conclusion.

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Originally Posted by robbie1435

Just going to quote something else from you really quickly, one second...

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If you're going to quote me at least do it properly:

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Originally Posted by Elrantiri

No proof and not a single suggestion to how you reach this conclusion. I'll just make my own then:

LM's have high dps when dps traited
Burgs have high dps when dps traited
Wardens have high dps when dps traited
Champs have high dps when dps traited
Minstrels have high dps when dps traited
Guardians have high dps when dps traited
Captains have good dps and awesome buffs when dps traited

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I made the "overview" of DPS to show how little value it has when you're not backing it with anything to prove that your overview is actually correct. The overview itself was never meant to be considered proven correct, it was only meant to show how "overviews" like the one Engine made can just be altered to support your PoV whether your PoV is correct or not.