Proposed Reaver Revisions

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Originally Posted by chrisCML

Lower ranks will also get blocked/parried/evaded a lot more courtesy of lower finesse....so actual DPS drop will be more then 10% on average. ....regardless that is some pretty sad parse numbers vs what DPS classes are capable of freepside today, let alone with lvl75 3rd ages, and eventual 75 2nd and 1st ages.

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If you are still shocked at this point to find that creeps do less DPS than freeps while also having higher morale and generally speaking higher mitigations, then I don't know what to tell you. That's kind of baked into the design cake.

On live, one of our real problems is that freeps can push up towards creep-like morale numbers while still having freep-like dps.

You'll be happy to see that this is changed in ROI, there is a real trade-off between stacking vit/morale and stacking DPS stats.

Creeps doing lower DPS and having higher morale is a pacing mechanic, if everyone had freep morale levels and damage fights would be far far too short!

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Originally Posted by Sezneg

If you are still shocked at this point to find that creeps do less DPS than freeps while also having higher morale and generally speaking higher mitigations, then I don't know what to tell you. That's kind of baked into the design cake.

On live, one of our real problems is that freeps can push up towards creep-like morale numbers while still having freep-like dps.

You'll be happy to see that this is changed in ROI, there is a real trade-off between stacking vit/morale and stacking DPS stats.

Creeps doing lower DPS and having higher morale is a pacing mechanic, if everyone had freep morale levels and damage fights would be far far too short!

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No shock. Champs, RKs, Hunters are parsing ~1200 with 75 3rd ages....and obviously spike potential can increases these numbers in the short run. ....and yes you need to factor in mits (how do these stack up now with changes), but you'd also need to factor in finesse, cc, range/melee, defensive skills (bubbles, self heals and oh-sh!t skills), curable dps (dots) etc etc....We won't get a good sense of where this all lands until several months down the road. The delta in morale is taking us back in the right direction again at least.

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Originally Posted by Sezneg

Actually, 500 dps is an increase over what reavers do on live. You just don't realize that because you've never actually parsed a reaver.

The difference in DPS between a lower rank and rank 15 reaver is only around ~50 dps (assuming the lower rank has purchased all of his skills).

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Current DPS of a r7 reaver is 350. So average reaver DPS increases from 350 to 400/450. Champ/Hunter DPS goes from 500/550 to 1500.

Next problem: can a creep healer heal through freep DPS? At the moment a mini can easily heal through the DPS of 3-4 reavers. How is the increase of the freep/creep HPS? Does a creep healer heal three times more than now?

See the problem?

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Originally Posted by SnakeShaker

Current DPS of a r7 reaver is 350. So average reaver DPS increases from 350 to 400/450. Champ/Hunter DPS goes from 500/550 to 1500.



Next problem: can a creep healer heal through freep DPS? At the moment a mini can easily heal through the DPS of 3-4 reavers. How is the increase of the freep/creep HPS? Does a creep healer heal three times more than now?

See the problem?

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First, your freep DPS is off by a lot.

65 geared freeps do a LOT closer to 800-900 dps on live. Depends a lot on gear, but the top end is a HELL of a lot higher than you are guessing.

Second, that 1500 dps parsing champ is geared to the hilt for DPS, his morale is at or bellow what you normally see on champs on live. In pvp gear he'll do less (and be a bit more survivable).

As for our healing? Majorly buffed. MUCH higher HPS output from defilers. MUCH easier for WLs to actually get heals off.

Freep dps did NOT go up as much as my morale (I went from 7.3k on live, but have 12.6k on beta... freep dps didn't get multiplied by 1.7, my morale certainly did!).

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Originally Posted by Sezneg

There was an exploit they had to fix with the automatic heal for having 3 blue traits that literally made them unkillable.

With improved hamstring, your slows > Their slow. You can kite them during the bubble (it only lasts 15 seconds). Also, you can kite them so that their single target skills can't hit you while you can still hit them (reavers have longer melee range).

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Really? I thought their bubble was 30 seconds duration? I haven't tested the champ much, partly because I don't play freepside at all anymore. Ever since Moria. And it would be hard to kite them if they pop their sprint though :p.

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The damage looked right where I expected it to be. Reavers at 75 parse about 500 dps at maximum power burn, and more like 450 at a bit more power friendly pace.

The only time his damage looked low he was hitting a guardian or a burg with knives out active.

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What about when I DSd the LMs in the video? I was DSing them for like 600 none crit (While my base damage for DS is over 1k) That's how much I DS now at level 65 with the same build. I *personally* don't feel like the damage is where it should be considering I gained 10 levels, and about what? 14% damage from Battlefield Promotion at rank 11? But I guess freeps having less morale than we do makes up for that? ;D

Honestly, we won't know for sure how things will turn out until live when freeps get their 2nd/1st ages and all their good gear, and creeps won't be rank 15, or well, 98% or so of them worldwide won't be.

I'm a she, by the way.

Christ reavers dps seeems really ####... Well atleast i got my BA ready...

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Originally Posted by Prancey

Really? I thought their bubble was 30 seconds duration? I haven't tested the champ much, partly because I don't play freepside at all anymore. Ever since Moria. And it would be hard to kite them if they pop their sprint though :p.



What about when I DSd the LMs in the video? I was DSing them for like 600 none crit (While my base damage for DS is over 1k) That's how much I DS now at level 65 with the same build. I *personally* don't feel like the damage is where it should be considering I gained 10 levels, and about what? 14% damage from Battlefield Promotion at rank 11? But I guess freeps having less morale than we do makes up for that? ;D

Honestly, we won't know for sure how things will turn out until live when freeps get their 2nd/1st ages and all their good gear, and creeps won't be rank 15, or well, 98% or so of them worldwide won't be.

I'm a she, by the way.

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Doublecheck your DS damage RANGE on bullroarer, they added 30% variance to our skill damages (instead of just having a damage value like they do on live). You just got a non-crit on the low end of the damage range most likely.

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Originally Posted by Sezneg

Freep dps did NOT go up as much as my morale (I went from 7.3k on live, but have 12.6k on beta... freep dps didn't get multiplied by 1.7, my morale certainly did!).

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A big increase from a number that is arguably too low to begin with isn't really a fair measure. You could easily argue that your 7.3k morale on live is too low to begin with from a "balance" perspective....as you yourself stated....

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Originally Posted by Sezneg

On live, one of our real problems is that freeps can push up towards creep-like morale numbers while still having freep-like dps.

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Originally Posted by Sezneg

Doublecheck your DS damage RANGE on bullroarer, they added 30% variance to our skill damages (instead of just having a damage value like they do on live). You just got a non-crit on the low end of the damage range most likely.

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Range? What, did you mean on the tooltip it'd say 600-1000 damage? I'm not quite sure what you mean by range :[.

So I've been asking around and everyone thinks you meant just a range from 600-1000 like I said, and there's no "range" like that for DS in beta. I even hovered over the skill in the video to show you guys that there isn't.

Here's the screenshot for DS in beta that I just took from the video, lol.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12758843/Lotro/beta/ds.jpg

Base is over 1k, yet I'm doing 600 on light armoured freeps....

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Originally Posted by Prancey

So I've been asking around and everyone thinks you meant just a range from 600-1000 like I said, and there's no "range" like that for DS in beta. I even hovered over the skill in the video to show you guys that there isn't.

Here's the screenshot for DS in beta that I just took from the video, lol.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12758843/Lotro/beta/ds.jpg

Base is over 1k, yet I'm doing 600 on light armoured freeps....

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Interesting, in that this could be a tooltip bug.

Damage ranges were added to all creep skills (check other tooltips), and it could be that DS received such a range and the tooltip was not updated to display this information.

*** edit ***

You should also note that properly traited minstrels are not a light armor class, they receive a buff to their mitigations equal to the difference between light and medium armor upon slotting the proper trait.

It should also be noted that minstrels have temporary self buffs to their armor (and therefore their physical mitigation) which may have been in place for this hit.

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Originally Posted by Sezneg

Interesting, in that this could be a tooltip bug.

Damage ranges were added to all creep skills (check other tooltips), and it could be that DS received such a range and the tooltip was not updated to display this information.

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Is there a source to this? Maybe I missed it :[.

And I must be really unlucky then, because I haven't seen any non crit DS go over 700, honestly. Except for the burg that I just saw in the vid. Odd. 700 on a burg, but 600 on a LM????

EDIT
Just checked the video out some more, and I DEVd a captain for 1400???? I Dev on live for 2k+, lol. And on a champ I did a 1,041 crit, but my base damage says 1,041 =/. Makes no sense to me, anymore.

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Originally Posted by Sezneg

You should also note that properly traited minstrels are not a light armor class, they receive a buff to their mitigations equal to the difference between light and medium armor upon slotting the proper trait.

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Yeah, but I was talking about LMs that I was fighting with the armour debuff, lol.

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Originally Posted by Prancey

Is there a source to this? Maybe I missed it :[.

And I must be really unlucky then, because I haven't seen any non crit DS go over 700, honestly. Except for the burg that I just saw in the vid. Odd. 700 on a burg, but 600 on a LM????

EDIT
Just checked the video out some more, and I DEVd a captain for 1400???? I Dev on live for 2k+, lol. And on a champ I did a 1,041 crit, but my base damage says 1,041 =/. Makes no sense to me, anymore.

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I forget when, but there was a patch on bullroarer where creep skills all had 30% variance added to their skill damages, so instead of doing a definite value you have some randomness to it (like freeps). I don't know if this was 100% all of our skills, or merely most of them. It would explain some of the damage numbers you are seeing though.

For instance, on live my spider's DoT does 397 or so initial damage. On beta it does something like 396-566. So if I get the absolute low end of that, it's going to do probably less than I'm used to seeing on live... but if i crit on the high end of that range? Kaboom (well for a spider kaboom anyways lol).

Actually logged on my reaver and NONE of the skill tooltips are showing damage variance... which is most certainly a bug! Look at your lacerate tooltip, the DoT is properly showing the variance, that should be on more/all of your skills (damage ranges instead of absolute values).

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Originally Posted by Prancey

Yeah, but I was talking about LMs that I was fighting with the armour debuff, lol.

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Fire Lore?

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Originally Posted by Sezneg

Fire Lore?

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No in the video you can see no damage reduction (de)buff on the reaver while the reaver have the damage buff for destiny points and he hits for 694 fire damage.
That is extremly low.

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Originally Posted by Sezneg

I forget when, but there was a patch on bullroarer where creep skills all had 30% variance added to their skill damages, so instead of doing a definite value you have some randomness to it (like freeps). I don't know if this was 100% all of our skills, or merely most of them. It would explain some of the damage numbers you are seeing though.

For instance, on live my spider's DoT does 397 or so initial damage. On beta it does something like 396-566. So if I get the absolute low end of that, it's going to do probably less than I'm used to seeing on live... but if i crit on the high end of that range? Kaboom (well for a spider kaboom anyways lol).

Actually logged on my reaver and NONE of the skill tooltips are showing damage variance... which is most certainly a bug! Look at your lacerate tooltip, the DoT is properly showing the variance, that should be on more/all of your skills (damage ranges instead of absolute values).

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I wish I could get on beta, but it's giving me the null steam or w/e error, but.. it still doesn't explain why I do such low damage in all my fights. On live I Dev for 2k+, and crit for around 1500-1700. With DR it'd be 2.6k+, but in the video I do a ###### 1400 dev crit, lol. I haven't gotten a single crit that I was impressed with, unless you want to count the stupid slug, which was a 2.4k dev, =/

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Fire Lore?

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Look at my video again. Those LMs did not have fire lore on me at any given time. I was hardly debuffed at all, because those freeps are so ########, and yet.. my damage was too low for having gained 10 levels, and ~10% damage with battlefield promotion. An old player from BW that doesn't play anymore even commented on the video that I was doing damage of that from MoM, lol.

EDIT

I just got to say. The moment I started playing the reaver in beta I noticed that the damage was low. I was constantly complaining to my friends in vent about it, and now all the other high ranked reavers agree after they saw my video and the other reaver beta video.

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Originally Posted by Prancey

I wish I could get on beta, but it's giving me the null steam or w/e error, but.. it still doesn't explain why I do such low damage in all my fights. On live I Dev for 2k+, and crit for around 1500-1700. With DR it'd be 2.6k+, but in the video I do a ###### 1400 dev crit, lol. I haven't gotten a single crit that I was impressed with, unless you want to count the stupid slug, which was a 2.4k dev, =/

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Here's an example of the damage variance. Note that the lacerate DoT no longer has a definite value, but instead a range. This SHOULD be showing up on the tooltip for all of your abilities (and on the initial damage for lacerate!). I have submitted a bug on this.

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9...hot00005iz.jpg

*these values are for a rank 0 reaver which I just rolled to confirm this information*

***EDIT***

Just for reference I rolled a loremaster and messed with my virtue traits.

I managed to hit 15.5% physical mitigation naked. I imagine light armor wearers are able to hit higher mitigations than on live.

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Originally Posted by Sezneg

Here's an example of the damage variance. Note that the lacerate DoT no longer has a definite value, but instead a range. This SHOULD be showing up on the tooltip for all of your abilities (and on the initial damage for lacerate!). I have submitted a bug on this.


*these values are for a rank 0 reaver which I just rolled to confirm this information*

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I think it only counts for DoTs. I checked the SSs for the WL and the BA, and it's only the DoTs that have that range variance you're talking about. Like, the DoT for VT has it etc. Let me post some of the SSs,

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12758843/Lotro/beta/BA/dad.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12758843/Lot...A/dadwdawd.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12758843/Lot...nShot00886.jpg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12758843/Lot...nShot01025.jpg

I also have the ones for the spider, and only the DoTs have this range you're talking about. Lethal Kiss doesn't have this range. I'd post it, but I can only post four pictures.

Here, let me post the screenshot of the spider too.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12758843/Lot...nShot01130.jpg

by the way, are you on beta? Since you said you submitted a bug? None of my tribemates who are in beta can get in, including me.. Lol.

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Originally Posted by Prancey

So I've been asking around and everyone thinks you meant just a range from 600-1000 like I said, and there's no "range" like that for DS in beta. I even hovered over the skill in the video to show you guys that there isn't.

Here's the screenshot for DS in beta that I just took from the video, lol.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12758843/Lotro/beta/ds.jpg

Base is over 1k, yet I'm doing 600 on light armoured freeps....

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Hahahaha!

Glad I brought this to attention.

Seriously... 460 power for a 600-1000 dmg attack. Where the "extreme" damage is only +300-500 dmg.

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Originally Posted by MechFierce

Hahahaha!

Glad I brought this to attention.

Seriously... 460 power for a 600-1000 dmg attack. Where the "extreme" damage is only +300-500 dmg.

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Yeah.. I don't know why people are saying the damage is "okay". It most certainly is not. Not when I gained 10 levels with 10% damage from BP, and I'm doing damage from Moria era, lol.

Yup having watched your vid the damage is extremely disappointing. Its pretty much exactly the same as live, in some cases it appears worse (dev for example, no doubt due to increased freep mits).

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Originally Posted by Elysiak

Yup having watched your vid the damage is extremely disappointing. Its pretty much exactly the same as live, in some cases it appears worse (dev for example, no doubt due to increased freep mits).

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Having fiddled around with physical mitigation, it is increased by vitality. In the PVP set, pvp rings and pvp cloak along with +20 vit from tomes (but no earings/bracelets/necklace or pocket item) I'm sitting at 26.9 mitigation to non-common physical attacks.

Seems to go up by about .1% per 10 vit at 75. I imagine that 33% is easily obtainable with this setup with the right jewelry.

That's certainly an increase over the fire damage light armor wearers can mitigate on live.

It should be noted that building this way, I only have around 700 will which is a noticable DPS loss vs stacking maximum will. Getting jewelry is currently a pain, but I hope to do a complete gear out and get some real numbers.

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Originally Posted by Prancey

Yeah.. I don't know why people are saying the damage is "okay". It most certainly is not. Not when I gained 10 levels with 10% damage from BP, and I'm doing damage from Moria era, lol.

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Originally Posted by Elysiak

Yup having watched your vid the damage is extremely disappointing. Its pretty much exactly the same as live, in some cases it appears worse (dev for example, no doubt due to increased freep mits).

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Just looked at your vid again some startling realizations:

In dying rage (1 disable being only melee dmg debuff), he critted for 1500 with dev strike...

Blade Toss and Dev Strike non-crit are virtually the same ~600-700

Ravage dmg: ~240, ~190, ~190 non-crit consistantly +/- 20 dmg

Sudden Strikes dmg: ~170, ~140 non-crit consistantly +/- 20 dmg




Overall, I would be completely For stagnating damage (SoA times) to increase battle longevity. Hopefully this is Kelsen's goal.

"Bloated" moral/low dmg vs freep low moral/high dps


In these videos freep moral is about 50% less than creep moral. "Squishy" creeps being ~12k and "tanking" creeps reaching 15-20k. Freep "squishies" seem to sit around ~6k and tanks reaching ~10-12k.

Unfortunately general freep skills are far superior to creeps consisting of better cc, curing, anti cc, dps/dots, and escape/defensive skills.

Mainly the creep advantages consist of better healing and moral. (it seems)

Edit: Rezzing is up for grabs, however I am leaning towards freep rezzing is better because captains can reset their rez with time of need for a rez every 2m:30s w/ legacy, 5min without. And minstrels have an ooc group rez on a 0s cd ~8s induction along with the legendary in combat rez. Loremasters can now rez ooc at 25m without a reagent. RKs can "foretell" rez and ooc rez. Creeps have their wl 6-7min cd 5 target PBAE in combat rez and defiler ooc rez 30s cd. I'll be forced to see these changes myself before I call out whose are better. Generally I count rezzing as a type of "heal" so whomever gains the most moral from the rez is the winner imo.




Anyone have the definitive maximum health a reaver can attain?

Buffs being: Aura of Protection, DP moral, Rage of the Misbegotten Racial, Imposing Presence, Full + health traits, zero -health traits, and full battlefield promotion.


Personally, depending on the answer for the question above: High end moral creeps can trait for might need to be higher.


Edit: I would also Love to know the reaver's base resists and how much they can be buffed. Corruptions, Racials, and class trait numbers. Possibly even the rank 12 wl (Point-Defense) banner to see if that has been scaled correctly as well.

Damn that really sucks for reavers. Are we suppose to be tanks now that melee dos?